ATD #9 Draft Summary.

[MXD]

myquick assessment of best & worst of first 12 rounds

1.Hull/roy
2.Schmidt/kurri
3.Bentley/fuhr
4.jackson/wilson
5 ratelle/Johnson
6.Provost/armstrong
7.Lumley/Tocchet
8.Mohns/Andreychuk
9.Mosienko/stevens
10. blake/holik
11.Macleish/hunter
12. Prentice/Graham

I think Lumley, by quite a margin, the worst pick of the 7th round.

 

[pappyline]

Kurri....worst? Can you explain?

Maybe not the worst although i am not a Kurri fan. I do realize that many like him. I just think that RW's like Conacher or Bathgate would have been a far better choice. Just my opinion.

 

[pappyline]

I think Lumley, by quite a margin, the worst pick of the 7th round.

Normally, Lumley is not a 7th round pick. But in the context of the rush on goalies, he was the best available at that point and better than a couple that went before him. Besides I like old apple cheeks.

 

[MXD]

Normally, Lumley is not a 7th round pick. But in the context of the rush on goalies, he was the best available at that point and better than a couple that went before him. Besides I like old apple cheeks.

I think Lumley belongs way after Esposito (that's what happens when every team makes the playoffs), and in the same tier than guys like Chabot, Raynor, Connell.

So, wayyy after 197th. In fact it's not that of a bad pick, it's just that he should never go before Esposito, and neither +- 100 ranks earlier than Vachon either.

 

[pappyline]

I think Lumley belongs way after Esposito (that's what happens when every team makes the playoffs), and in the same tier than guys like Chabot, Raynor, Connell.

So, wayyy after 197th. In fact it's not that of a bad pick, it's just that he should never go before Esposito, and neither +- 100 ranks earlier than Vachon either.

Lumley going at 197 certainly isn't a strech at all. He would be in my top 200 all time and I would pick him before any of the guys you list. Played 16 years in the original six in a time when teams only dressed one goalie. A couple of times as first team AS on an average Leaf team plus he won a Stanley cup.

 

[MXD]

Lumley going at 197 certainly isn't a strech at all. He would be in my top 200 all time and I would pick him before any of the guys you list. Played 16 years in the original six in a time when teams only dressed one goalie. A couple of times as first team AS on an average Leaf team plus he won a Stanley cup.

I know that, it's just that there were so much better players than him as a whole during that stretch, I dislike a bit rating a guy so high when he's like the 5th best netminder of his era.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Best/Worst

1. Richard/Mahovlich
2. Kharlamov/B.Smith
3. Hull/Shanahan
4. Keon/Blake
5. Bure/Flaman
6. Zubov/Tikanen
7. T.Esposito/Sutter
8. Fleury/J.Thornton
9. Mosienko/Bowman
10. Naslund/Holik

 

[Leaf Lander]

Best/ Worst
1 Gretzky /Robinson
2 Sakic /Lalonde
3 Clancy/Langway
4 Joliot /Reardon
5 Gilmour/Konstantinov
6 Larionov/zubov
7 Nieuwendyk/Langevin
8 Baun/Routsalainen
9 Bowman/Chara
10 Roenick/otto
11 Nilsson/crosby
12 Weiland/Graham
13 Hap Day/Murray
14 Finnigan /Keane
15 Johansson/spezza
16 CUJO/ Hossa
17 Davidsn/McCarty
18 Drinkwater/babbych
19 watson/Jonsson
20 Gilmour/ricci
21 Bowie/Labine/Bain-Pandolfo
22 Chapman/Gagne
23 Dick Irvin, Sr./Plett
24 Tikhonov/ Pederson

 

[EagleBelfour]

Best/Worst

1. Richard/Mahovlich
2. Lalonde-Kharlamov/Tretiak
3. Bentley/Forsberg
4. Jackson/Tremblay
5. Ratelle/ ---
6. Yakushev/Taylor
7. Maltsev/Langevin
8. Mohns/Ruotsolainen
9. --- / Simmer
10. Jarvis/Holik
11. Phillips/ ---
12. Ellis/Phillips
13. Watson/Redden
14. Finnigan-Shadrin/Probert
15. Connell/Spezza
16. Starshinov-Davydov/Smith
17. Grant-Simpson/McCarthy
18. Pulford/Buchberger
19. Watson/Timonen
20. Frederickson/Gracie-Ricci
21. Bowie/Rogers
22. Chapman/Allaire
23. Westwick-Plett/Briere
24. Konovalenko/Malkin-Theodore

 

[Sturminator]

Biggest Steal of the draft: Hard to say, because it's all dependent on team context and positional scarcity. I'll go with Griffis at #320 overall. There was a steep drop after he went off the board.

Biggest Reach of the draft: Tie between Neely and Carbonneau. Modern players are strange - they can be both wildly over and underrated. I think Neely and Carbo are arguably the most overrated players in the draft. Carbonneau should be obvious; he simply doesn't belong above a whole bunch of players at all positions, but specifically centers Ratelle, Larionov, Lemaire, etc. Guy is great in his role, but there is a general point to be made about "shutdown lines" here. It seems to be less popular in this draft, but a lot of GMs just love the idea of having a purely defensive forward line that they can match against the other team's #1 line. The problem with this strategy is that it often leads to defensive forwards being picked well before their talent would suggest (Carbonneau) and it is also not possible to truly match a shutdown line with a #1 line unless you want to give a shutdown line #1 line minutes. Teams dedicated to line-matching schemes must also invest much more heavily in coaching than teams with more-or-less internally consistent systems.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft: Can I give Rick and I credit for taking Selanne here? Not only was there a steep dropoff at the position after Selanne, but he was considerably undervalued; Teemu belongs in the 12-15 tier of right wings in this draft with guys like Mikhailov, Makarov and Cournoyer, and above Neely. Exactly what is the big difference between Teemu Selanne and Sergei Makarov? They are very similar players. People will knock Selanne for his limited playoff opportunities, and yet he's got his name on the Cup, a terrific international record and is a more proven scorer at the highest level than even the guys I listed as his peers. Selanne's somewhere on the fringe of the top-15 goalscorers of all time.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft: I think Cowley at #111 was a big mistake, which Pancreas rectified later by trading him away (albeit at below market value for a 4th round pick). Cowley's career looks a lot better from a distance than it does when you put him under the microscope a bit. The trade Eagle and Pancreas made was fair only because Cowley was overdrafted by a couple of rounds. He belongs in the Primeau/Lemaire/Petrov/Barry range (good second liners), not among true first line centers where he was taken.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft: Alex Yakushev made a nice little jump over some clearly inferior left wingers.

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft: Jere Lehtinen's slip was quite justified, in my opinion.

A player you've discovered in this draft: I dunno...Brendan Morrow? Heh. No, I guess it was Milan Michalek who "discovered" him.

Most underrated player taken: Hard to say just one, though I think Tod Sloan may still be underrated. He's got a rather incomplete playoff resume, but his regular season exploits are surprisingly good considering where he's normally taken. I thought about Sloan on the second line in Springfield, but realized he wouldn't fit with Selanne.

Most overrated player taken: Judging only by draft position, I think Gilbert Perreault went too soon. I wouldn't take him before Lalonde and Apps, at a minimum. That early in the draft, a 20 or so pick reach is fairly substantial.

Favourite line of the draft: I would say Smith - Fedorov - Lafleur because I really like that combination of players...if Hooley Smith wasn't so badly out of position. Because they haven't gotten any love yet, I'll throw out Andreychuk - Francis - Conacher. Nasty, nasty second line.

Best assembled line of the draft: Best assembled...as in good value picks that fit well together as a complete unit? I don't think Barber - Ullman - Bathgate is too bad, actually. I have to go with Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov, though, and not only because of obvious chemistry. Kharlamov went at nice value and I'm a bigger Petrov fan than most, it seems.

Worst assembled line of the draft: Bobrov - Federko - Middleton. All excellent players and fine picks, but they just don't fit together, at all. Nik has moved Marcotte up to Bobrov's slot, I believe, which is a better fit, but in terms of worst fitting units of otherwise great players, I think the original line concept here was broken.

Best defensive pairing: I'm a big fan of Chelios - Lapointe, for what should be obvious reasons.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Worst assembled line of the draft
Adam Graves - Syd Howe - Pavel Bure

I'm curious why. I can appreciate if the line isn't a favourite, but the line was specifically built to have every player compliment each other. So I'm curious where you think we went wrong.

 

[FissionFire]

I'm curious why. I can appreciate if the line isn't a favourite, but the line was specifically built to have every player compliment each other. So I'm curious where you think we went wrong.

He's been perma-banned so don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

 

[arrbez]

Favourite line of the draft: I would say Smith - Fedorov - Lafleur because I really like that combination of players...if Hooley Smith wasn't so badly out of position.

I'm not sure Smith really is out of position. I've read that he would play all 3 forward positions, and he garnered all-star votes at LW at least once if I remember. So while LW isn't his most famous position, I have complete confidence in his ability to play it (especially since he won't be the go-to scoring threat on the line).

 

[Jungosi]

He's been perma-banned so don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

I'm curious why? Could you tell me via pm if you know?

 

[Sturminator]

I'm not sure Smith really is out of position. I've read that he would play all 3 forward positions, and he garnered all-star votes at LW at least once if I remember. So while LW isn't his most famous position, I have complete confidence in his ability to play it (especially since he won't be the go-to scoring threat on the line).

I may be off target here, but I believe Smith garnered LW votes in a season in which he was mainly a center. This sort of thing was known to happen during that era of all-star voting - the whole Clancy all-star voting fiasco that HO wrote about being the first example that comes to mind.

I certainly don't think Hooley Smith is wholly incapable of playing left wing - I just don't think you're going to get the most out of him if that's where he's playing. As far as I know, he was never a regular left wing, but rather dabbled at that position from time-to-time. His best years seem to have been at center.

 

[Sturminator]

9 Bowman/Chara

LL, I'm curious what has happened to change your mind since you drafted Chara at the same draft position in ATD#8. All he's done since you took him is turn in another all-star season - the first-team kind, in all likelihood.

 

[Leaf Lander]

LL, I'm curious what has happened to change your mind since you drafted Chara at the same draft position in ATD#8. All he's done since you took him is turn in another all-star season - the first-team kind, in all likelihood.

let me look at the rnd again ok

sutter gonchar n stevens would all battle as the worst pick in rnd 9 imo with chara

I love chara and hwat he brings to my team or in this draft your team.


We are picking teams and weare battling other gms for our players so saying chara is the worst pic in rnd 9 isnt bad at all it just shows how good the rnd is.

 

[Sturminator]

We are picking teams and weare battling other gms for our players so saying chara is the worst pic in rnd 9 isnt bad at all it just shows how good the rnd is.

My personal pick for worst of the 9th round is Vlad Krutov, but then my feelings on that player are well known. I think the light shed by the Norris voting thread shows pretty clearly that Chara and Gonchar are very solid 9th round picks, and better than a number of the defensemen taken ahead of them.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Biggest Steal of the draft: Hard to say, because it's all dependent on team context and positional scarcity. I'll go with Griffis at #320 overall. There was a steep drop after he went off the board.

Biggest Reach of the draft: Tie between Neely and Carbonneau. Modern players are strange - they can be both wildly over and underrated. I think Neely and Carbo are arguably the most overrated players in the draft. Carbonneau should be obvious; he simply doesn't belong above a whole bunch of players at all positions, but specifically centers Ratelle, Larionov, Lemaire, etc. Guy is great in his role, but there is a general point to be made about "shutdown lines" here. It seems to be less popular in this draft, but a lot of GMs just love the idea of having a purely defensive forward line that they can match against the other team's #1 line. The problem with this strategy is that it often leads to defensive forwards being picked well before their talent would suggest (Carbonneau) and it is also not possible to truly match a shutdown line with a #1 line unless you want to give a shutdown line #1 line minutes. Teams dedicated to line-matching schemes must also invest much more heavily in coaching than teams with more-or-less internally consistent systems.

Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft: Can I give Rick and I credit for taking Selanne here? Not only was there a steep dropoff at the position after Selanne, but he was considerably undervalued; Teemu belongs in the 12-15 tier of right wings in this draft with guys like Mikhailov, Makarov and Cournoyer, and above Neely. Exactly what is the big difference between Teemu Selanne and Sergei Makarov? They are very similar players. People will knock Selanne for his limited playoff opportunities, and yet he's got his name on the Cup, a terrific international record and is a more proven scorer at the highest level than even the guys I listed as his peers. Selanne's somewhere on the fringe of the top-15 goalscorers of all time.

Biggest blunder selection of the draft: I think Cowley at #111 was a big mistake, which Pancreas rectified later by trading him away (albeit at below market value for a 4th round pick). Cowley's career looks a lot better from a distance than it does when you put him under the microscope a bit. The trade Eagle and Pancreas made was fair only because Cowley was overdrafted by a couple of rounds. He belongs in the Primeau/Lemaire/Petrov/Barry range (good second liners), not among true first line centers where he was taken.

A Player finally getting respect in the draft: Alex Yakushev made a nice little jump over some clearly inferior left wingers.

A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft: Jere Lehtinen's slip was quite justified, in my opinion.

A player you've discovered in this draft: I dunno...Brendan Morrow? Heh. No, I guess it was Milan Michalek who "discovered" him.

Most underrated player taken: Hard to say just one, though I think Tod Sloan may still be underrated. He's got a rather incomplete playoff resume, but his regular season exploits are surprisingly good considering where he's normally taken. I thought about Sloan on the second line in Springfield, but realized he wouldn't fit with Selanne.

Most overrated player taken: Judging only by draft position, I think Gilbert Perreault went too soon. I wouldn't take him before Lalonde and Apps, at a minimum. That early in the draft, a 20 or so pick reach is fairly substantial.

Favourite line of the draft: I would say Smith - Fedorov - Lafleur because I really like that combination of players...if Hooley Smith wasn't so badly out of position. Because they haven't gotten any love yet, I'll throw out Andreychuk - Francis - Conacher. Nasty, nasty second line.

Best assembled line of the draft: Best assembled...as in good value picks that fit well together as a complete unit? I don't think Barber - Ullman - Bathgate is too bad, actually. I have to go with Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov, though, and not only because of obvious chemistry. Kharlamov went at nice value and I'm a bigger Petrov fan than most, it seems.

Worst assembled line of the draft: Bobrov - Federko - Middleton. All excellent players and fine picks, but they just don't fit together, at all. Nik has moved Marcotte up to Bobrov's slot, I believe, which is a better fit, but in terms of worst fitting units of otherwise great players, I think the original line concept here was broken.

Best defensive pairing: I'm a big fan of Chelios - Lapointe, for what should be obvious reasons.

Neely was not a reach. He was a No. 1 RW on a team that went to the league final in ATD 6. A 20-team draft. This is a 32-team draft. Not a reach. And could you think of a better RW to play with Schmidt and Bucyk than Neely? It's the best all-round line in the draft.

At his peak, from 87 to 91, he was unstoppable. Named an all-star three times. Took his team to the Stanley Cup final in 1988 and 1990. When Boston ended their 40-year drought against Montreal in 1988, who was their best player? Neely.

There was also that 50-50 season on one leg in 1993-94 season, and that 50-goal clip in the lockout season. And he's No. 4 all-time in post-season goals per game.

He's a force in front of the net, a force in the corners, and one of the best combinations of goal-scoring ability and physical play of all-time. He's the perfect third man for our first line. And you're telling me he's a reach?

 

[Sturminator]

Neely was not a reach. He was a No. 1 RW on a team that went to the league final in ATD 6. A 20-team draft. This is a 32-team draft. Not a reach. And could you think of a better RW to play with Schmidt and Bucyk than Neely?

You mean besides Gordie Howe? Don't get ahead of yourself. Past ATD performance is so far beyond relevant I'm surprised you'd even mention it. Shall we go over the other gross drafting blunders from ATD#6 while we're at it?

At his peak, from 87 to 91, he was unstoppable. Named an all-star three times. Took his team to the Stanley Cup final in 1988 and 1990.

Yes, Cam was unstoppable over his very short peak. Tell me something I didn't already know.

He's a force in front of the net, a force in the corners, and one of the best combinations of goal-scoring ability and physical play of all-time. He's the perfect third man for our first line. And you're telling me he's a reach?

Yes, I am, and I'm far from the only one who has told you that. Although I like the overall composition of your first line, I still think Cam Neely is overrated where he's generally picked. His peak was just too damned short. There's nothing really more to say. I'm not at all convinced that Neely at his peak was better than Ovechkin is now, and Alex's peak has already been almost as long.

 

[God Bless Canada]

You mean besides Gordie Howe? Don't get ahead of yourself. Past ATD performance is so far beyond relevant I'm surprised you'd even mention it. Shall we go over the other gross drafting blunders from ATD#6 while we're at it?



Yes, Cam was unstoppable over his very short peak. Tell me something I didn't already know.



Yes, I am, and I'm far from the only one who has told you that. Although I like the overall composition of your first line, I still think Cam Neely is overrated where he's generally picked. His peak was just too damned short. There's nothing really more to say. I'm not at all convinced that Neely at his peak was better than Ovechkin is now, and Alex's peak has already been almost as long.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question: in terms of the RWs who were available, who would fit the third forward slot on the Bucyk-Schmidt line better than Neely?

And I'd take Neely ahead of Selanne in a heartbeat. Neely's a better hockey player. Selanne's a much better playmaker, but he's a marginally better goal scorer than Neely. Neely has a clear-cut edge over Selanne in pretty much every other facet. And Neely was much better in the playoffs.

 

[Sturminator]

Perhaps I should rephrase my question: in terms of the RWs who were available, who would fit the third forward slot on the Bucyk-Schmidt line better than Neely?

And I'd take Neely ahead of Selanne in a heartbeat. Neely's a better hockey player. Selanne's a much better playmaker, but he's a marginally better goal scorer than Neely. Neely has a clear-cut edge over Selanne in pretty much every other facet. And Neely was much better in the playoffs.

- except career value, where Selanne smokes Neely badly.

- and skating.

- Neely wasn't a particularly good defensive zone player, so he's not going to have a clear-cut edge over anybody in that category in an ATD unless we're talking about a total floater, which Selanne was not.

- Selanne has his name on the Cup. An argument can be made that Neely's teams were never good enough to win it, but then again, that same argument can be used for Selanne, who never played on a legitimate contender until he was way over the hill.

When we look back 20 years from now, I don't think anyone will seriously rate Neely above Selanne, and I agree with Pancreas that right now Neely and Iginla are very close. Was he the best fit among the right wings available? I dunno. With Schmidt - Bucyk, you could have gone a lot of different ways on the right wing and still iced a great line. Whether or not Neely was the best fit for what you were trying to do, I still don't think he's good value in the early 4th round.

 

[Heat McManus]

Best/Worst

1. Richard/Mahovlich
2. Lalonde-Kharlamov/Tretiak
3. Bentley/Forsberg
4. Jackson/Tremblay
5. Ratelle/ ---
6. Yakushev/Taylor
7. Maltsev/Langevin
8. Mohns/Ruotsolainen
9. --- / Simmer
10. Jarvis/Holik
11. Phillips/ ---
12. Ellis/Phillips
13. Watson/Redden
14. Finnigan-Shadrin/Probert
15. Connell/Spezza
16. Starshinov-Davydov/Smith
17. Grant-Simpson/McCarthy
18. Pulford/Buchberger
19. Watson/Timonen
20. Frederickson/Gracie-Ricci
21. Bowie/Rogers
22. Chapman/Allaire
23. Westwick-Plett/Briere
24. Konovalenko/Malkin-Theodore

I'll give you Mahovlich, and maybe Tretiak as he was picked too soon. Having had a blinding migraine at the time of my first two picks definitely hindered my selection process.

McCarty however, I still think was a pretty good pick. Great energy right wing. 3 Cups (working on his 4th). Fought through adversity to resurrect a career and was a locker room favorite.