ATD 2021 Draft Thread I

[tinyzombies]

Sturminator said that Dionne was soft and got beaten up in the playoffs

Dionne was never soft, he was built like a fire hydrant and fearless. That's how I remember him.

 

[Habsfan18]

I'm not trying to make you feel crazy, I wasn't sure what you meant. Now I get it, it seems your argument or the argument you heard, was that people viewed the goalie differently intrinsically depending on draft size. My view is that I judge the goalie the same regardless of draft size, but his competition will be different, and I adjust my strategy according to that.

I guess I’ve always just understood it as, Ken Dryden for instance in a 30 team draft is pretty damn good and well above average. But Ken Dryden in say a 12 team draft, if he were to be viewed as say the 8th best goaltender of the bunch..is now considered the 8th best goaltender in a league of 12. So he’s now considered “below average” relative to his league. Maybe I misunderstood the previous discussions.

But I do get what you’re saying.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess I’ve always just understood it as, Ken Dryden for instance in a 30 team draft is pretty damn good and well above average. But Ken Dryden in say a 12 team draft, if he were to be viewed as say the 8th best goaltender of the bunch..is now considered the 8th best goaltender in a league of 12. So he’s now considered “below average” relative to his league. Maybe I misunderstood the previous discussions.

But I do get what you’re saying.

There really are 2 basic ways of looking at it. What you are saying is one way, and some GMs do view it that way.

BenchBrawl seems to be looking at it the other way (the way I also look at it) - the difference between Roy and Dryden is the difference between Roy and Dryden, no matter how big the league size is. In other words, the gap between the best and worst goalie is bigger in a bigger league. Just like if the current NHL contracted to 20 teams, the gap between the best and worst goalie would be smaller.

Or to put it another way, Brodeur and Hasek peaked at similar times - we know what the difference between them is, regardless of the size of the league they play in.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It's all about how your goalie compares to the other goalies in the draft (just like any position). To say the 20th best goaltender in a 40 team draft is the same value as the 6th best goaltender in a 12 team draft is NOT correct.

Elaborating on this, many GMs rank Hall, Brodeur, Sawchuk in the same tier (3-6, although the order within the tier seems to vary quite a bit), and therefore the 6th best goalie would be worth about the same as the 3rd best goalie.

You certainly can't say that in a 40 team draft the 20th best goalie is worth about the same as the 10th best goalie.

 

[BenchBrawl]

You know when you like a post, and a bunch of other people like it at the exact same time. Creeps me out.

 

[Professor What]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't a larger draft tend to show the gap between goalies more clearly? I ask that thinking about it in terms of the skaters they're up against. As the skater pool gets diluted, the top goalies are helped by the fact that they're not up against as many elite threats all at once, and the more average goalies would obviously be more threatened by the more average skaters than the top goalies.

Again, maybe I'm completely missing something, but I'm trying to process the significance of all of this.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't a larger draft tend to show the gap between goalies more clearly? I ask that thinking about it in terms of the skaters they're up against. As the skater pool gets diluted, the top goalies are helped by the fact that they're not up against as many elite threats all at once, and the more average goalies would obviously be more threatened by the more average skaters than the top goalies.

Again, maybe I'm completely missing something, but I'm trying to process the significance of all of this.

Yes. That's why goalies are more valuable in a 40 teams draft, than in a 24 teams draft.

 

[tinyzombies]

I guess I’ve always just understood it as, Ken Dryden for instance in a 30 team draft is pretty damn good and well above average. But Ken Dryden in say a 12 team draft, if he were to be viewed as say the 8th best goaltender of the bunch..is now considered the 8th best goaltender in a league of 12. So he’s now considered “below average” relative to his league. Maybe I misunderstood the previous discussions.

But I do get what you’re saying.

That doesn't mean he isn't going to stick out that right leg and burn ya.

 

[nabby12]

Is @Leaf Lander gonna pick sometime this afternoon?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Is @Leaf Lander gonna pick sometime this afternoon?

He's around. I messaged him on FB and he said he was looking over options. Shouldn't be terribly long.

 

[nabby12]

There is a winger that I think would slot really nicely beside Firsov and Messier, and it really hurts me to pass up on him..

I didn’t intend to go in this direction so soon..but, since Brodeur and Tretiak are already in my division, it looks like I should probably go ahead and get my guy now. I don’t want to be saddled with the “worst” goaltender in my division. So yes, this reactionary based on my division.

But damnit, I didn’t want to go goaltender this early.

But I also really like this guy.

Best goaltender of his era. Was probably robbed of a few more 1st-team all-star nods. And The Rocket called him the toughest goaltender to beat of those that he played against.

Mr. Zero. G, Frank Brimsek

View attachment 386524

His biography, authored by our very own @nabby12.

Great pick! Brimsek was a legend. And thanks for the shoutout.

Here's a photo from the book signing that was held at the US Hockey Hall of Fame in Eveleth, Minnesota while I was in town for a World Curling Tour event. Pictured is college hockey legend John Mayasich.

I have PDF copies of the book available if anyone is interested for a small fee. PM me.

 

[tinyzombies]

Great pick! Brimsek was a legend. And thanks for the shoutout.

Here's a photo from the book signing that was held at the US Hockey Hall of Fame in Eveleth, Minnesota while I was in town for a World Curling Tour event. Pictured is college hockey legend John Mayasich.

I have PDF copies of the book available if anyone is interested for a small fee. PM me.

I'll take one.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Great pick! Brimsek was a legend. And thanks for the shoutout.

Here's a photo from the book signing that was held at the US Hockey Hall of Fame in Eveleth, Minnesota while I was in town for a World Curling Tour event. Pictured is college hockey legend John Mayasich.

I have PDF copies of the book available if anyone is interested for a small fee. PM me.

Sad that most Americans have no idea who he is.

 

[Habsfan18]

Sad that most Americans have no idea who he is.

He isn’t even in consideration for the greatest American of all-time with regards to most mainstream lists. It’s a farce!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He isn’t even in consideration for the greatest American of all-time with regards to most mainstream lists. It’s a farce!

I think that a lot of people basically think there weren't any notable Americans in the NHL before the Miracle on Ice generation... which was true for the most part between 1950 and 1980 or so. So they don't bother to look back before that time period.

 

[Habsfan18]

I think that a lot of people basically think there weren't any notable Americans in the NHL before the Miracle on Ice generation... which was true for the most part between 1950 and 1980 or so. So they don't bother to look back before that time period.

Yeah, that’s actually a pretty good point.

It really goes to show just how much of an impact Miracle on Ice had for an entire generation of Americans. And then of course the same could be said again for Gretzky and LA. Both were huge for an entire country, and in turn huge for the game of hockey overall.

 

[Habsfan18]

It’s pretty crazy to think that for a short while, a guy like Bobby Carpenter had a case as being up there on the list of greatest Americans EVER.

That also shows how far the US has come in terms of talent.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It’s pretty crazy to think that for a short while, a guy like Bobby Carpenter had a case as being up there on the list of greatest Americans EVER.

That also shows how far the US has come in terms of talent.

The US has been a thorn in the side of the Canadian's in Juniors. IIRC they've won 3 of the last 4 finals.

The crazy thing is hockey is still a very niche sport in the US. I mean Sidney Crosby is paid like some bench players in the NBA. Now obviously that is economics, but it just goes to show you the popularity disparity.

 

[Habsfan18]

The US has been a thorn in the side of the Canadian's in Juniors. IIRC they've won 3 of the last 4 finals.

The crazy thing is hockey is still a very niche sport in the US. I mean Sidney Crosby is paid like some bench players in the NBA. Now obviously that is economics, but it just goes to show you the popularity disparity.

It’s crazy when you consider the popularity difference by State as well. I mean, a place like Minnesota could probably rival any Canadian market in terms of the hardcore fan. But talk about hockey to someone living in Arkansas or Alabama and there’s a good change they look at you as if you had 3 heads. Many legitimately don’t even know hockey is a thing.

 

[BenchBrawl]

It’s crazy when you consider the popularity difference by State as well. I mean, a place like Minnesota could probably rival any Canadian market in terms of the hardcore fan. But talk about hockey to someone living in Arkansas or Alabama and there’s a good change they look at you as if you had 3 heads. Many legitimately don’t even know hockey is a thing.

Hockey should only be played in cold weather areas. When this civilization collapses in 100 years, this is what is gonna happen. Grassroot activities flow from the conditions of the area.

I guess this is not exactly true, since the west coast had teams back then, but close enough.

 

[VanIslander]

San Jose and Nashville are rabid hockey towns. It was easy for me to become a Sharks and Preds fan because the home crowds are so vocally supportive. "The Shark Tank" and "Smashville" are widespread-locally emotional labels.

In the AHL, the San Diego Gulls have 7500+ attendance at games; in the ECHL, 3 of the top 5 teams in terms of attendance are in Florida.

Unless ice rinks disappear (an apocalypse?), Southern cities like those will continue to embrace hockey.

(Remember, the Stanley Cup was between Tampa Bay & Dallas last year - though ironically the games were played up north. Tampa was top-5 in NHL attendance two years ago; Dallas had more than Vancouver and Boston!)

Other Southern cities, like Miami and Phoenix, are sad sack Weekend at Bernie's.

I believe Texas is a huge market barely tapped. The Houston Aeros were strongly supported in the past, Dallas has strong attendance, the state has several lucrative markets in terms of size of population, income level and interest in sports. One or two more NHL teams in Texas could provide a local rivalry to catapult the state into one of the top hockey markets.

 

[BenchBrawl]

San Jose and Nashville are rabid hockey towns. It was easy for me to become a Sharks and Preds fan because the home crowds are so vocally supportive. "The Shark Tank" and "Smashville" are widespread-locally emotional labels.

In the AHL, the San Diego Gulls have 7500+ attendance at games; in the ECHL, 3 of the top 5 teams in terms of attendance are in Florida.

Unless ice rinks disappear (an apocalypse?), Southern cities like those will continue to embrace hockey.

(Remember, the Stanley Cup was between Tampa Bay & Dallas last year - though ironically the games were played up north.)

Other Southern cities, like Miami and Phoenix, are sad sack Weekend at Bernie's.

When I was a boy, I thought hockey was the most popular sport on earth, while the rest were marginal, secondary sports (football, basketball, soccer). I saw Baseball as the 2nd most important. This wasn't my opinion as much as the air I was breathing in Montreal. I wasn't aware that it was different elsewhere.

I learned to skate earlier than my living memory reaches. Hockey was just it.

 

[VanIslander]

Let's go Expos, let's .... hey!... um, bye Expos, bye...

(I have fond memories of attending a Montreal MLB game where Vladimir Guerrero was the star (before he went to Anaheim).

 

[BenchBrawl]

Let's go Expos, let's .... hey!... um, bye Expos, bye...

(I have fond memories of attending a Montreal MLB game where Vladimir Guerrero was the star (before he went to Anaheim).

I grew up near the Olympic Stadium, so I saw plenty of games with Vladimir Guerrero. I wasn't a die hard Expos fan like I was with the Montreal Canadiens though. Like I said, Baseball was "the sport of the summer", something to watch while waiting for hockey to restart.

 

[ImporterExporter]

LL said he's at dinner. Will pick in a bit.