ATD 2019 Lineup Advice Thread

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So Francis then on my 2nd PK and also bump Jarvis up to my 3rd line and put Starshinov on my 4th line?

Also for my pp dmen, this is the plan now:

PP 1: Clancy-Tremblay
PP 2: Cook-Ragulin

I was talking just PK - I would not want to give a guy with zero offensive ability like Jarvis any more than 4th line ice time at even strength.

Francis looks to be a better PK2 guy than Starshinov to me, yes. But I might be missing something on Starshinov, I know someone recently did a big PK study on the Soviets on the HOH board.

_____

I like Clancy and Tremblay on the PP. Cook and Ragulin both seem like decent 4th options, but maybe get a forward (Francis again)? on the point on one of the units?

 

[Namba 17]

Starshinov was the best defensive F of Soviets in 60-x and top PK man for them the same time. If it's enough - is up to you. I'd definitely used hi as 2-d PK option, but it's me.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Starshinov was the best defensive F of Soviets in 60-x and top PK man for them the same time. If it's enough - is up to you. I'd definitely used hi as 2-d PK option, but it's me.

If he was their top PK man, that's enough for me to be fine with him on PK2.

 

[tinyzombies]

Question about Day and Mortson. Did they play together?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Question about Day and Mortson. Did they play together?

Hap Day retired in 1938. Gus Mortson started playing in 1946.

Day did coach Mortson though...

 

[tinyzombies]

Hap Day retired in 1938. Gus Mortson started playing in 1946.

Day did coach Mortson though...

So you’re saying it’s possible?

 

[tinyzombies]

I don’t know much about the Leaves. The ATD has been a major education.

Are they both second pairing worthy in a 20 team draft? In other words, top 80 alltime?

Also how are you from Brooklyn and know all this? I lived in Bushwick once upon a time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don’t know much about the Leaves. The ATD has been a major education.

Are they both second pairing worthy in a 20 team draft? In other words, top 80 alltime?

Mortson and Day? Day is a passable #4, not sure about Mortson.

Also how are you from Brooklyn and know all this?

Their career start and end dates? I use hockey-reference.com's player search function.

I lived in Bushwick once upon a time.

Small world. I've lived in either Bushwick (Brooklyn) or what I call its suburb, Ridgewood (Queens) for the last 7 years now. Technically live in Ridgewood now but Bushwick is literally on the other side of the street.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

...Small world. I've lived in either Bushwick (Brooklyn) or what I call its suburb, Ridgewood (Queens) for the last 7 years now. Technically live in Ridgewood now but Bushwick is literally on the other side of the street.

In my mind TDMM was a member of the Beastie Boys and (since my son and I think D'lo and the Nets are the secret cool team in the NBA now) a Nets fan.

 

[Theokritos]

If he was their top PK man, that's enough for me to be fine with him on PK2.

Arkady Chernyshov: "It's for good reasons that Starshinov is on the ice whenever we are short-handed."

The Soviet forwards who stood out the most when it comes to penalty killing during the 1960-1990 time frame were in my opinion the following. (...)
- Vyacheslav Starshinov and Anatoly Firsov who dominated the second half of the 60's.
- Vladimir Petrov and Boris Mikhailov who were the leading penalty killers during much of the 70's (...)

 

[tinyzombies]

Mortson and Day? Day is a passable #4, not sure about Mortson.



Their career start and end dates? I use hockey-reference.com's player search function.



Small world. I've lived in either Bushwick (Brooklyn) or what I call its suburb, Ridgewood (Queens) for the last 7 years now. Technically live in Ridgewood now but Bushwick is literally on the other side of the street.

I rollerbladed thru Bedstuy

 

[Claude The Fraud]

With Carlyle, my top 6 is now complete.

#2 Brian Leetch - #52 Adam Foote
#5 Rod Langway - #56 Sergei Zubov
#25 Randy Carlyle - #4 Rob Blake

What do you think of it?

I like my first pair a lot. Brian Leetch had so much succes with Jeff Beukeboom. Having Adam Foote as a partner is a major upgrade for him. Foote won a Cup playing with the high flying Sandis Ozolinsh, so he's capable of playing with an offensive defenseman. He could easily take car of the defensive business while Leetch join the rush. I don't see why this pair couldn't have success at this level.

Playing Sergei Zubov with Rod Langway will give him all the liberty he needs offensively. At first, I had planned to put Blake with Langway, but I tought a more offensive defenseman would be better suited as a Langway partner. Also, always thinking of chemistry, Zubov had his best days playing with Derian Hatcher. While they're not the exactly the same kind of defenseman, I'm confident Langway would be able to cover up defensively and physically for Zubov. Physically, I think Hatcher get it over Langway, but defensively, Langway gets the advantage.

I know Randy Carlyle is probably the weakest Norris winner, and I know he isn't very popular here. But I like the idea of having a guy who had some offensive success and who change his style of play and became a more defensive player as he grew older. Pairing him with an other all-aroud defenseman in Blake is the best thing I could do, I think. Speaking of Rob Blake, I think he may be the best defenseman playing on the third pair of this draft.

 

[Johnny Engine]

With Carlyle, my top 6 is now complete.

#2 Brian Leetch - #52 Adam Foote
#5 Rod Langway - #56 Sergei Zubov
#25 Randy Carlyle - #4 Rob Blake

What do you think of it?

I like my first pair a lot. Brian Leetch had so much succes with Jeff Beukeboom. Having Adam Foote as a partner is a major upgrade for him. Foote won a Cup playing with the high flying Sandis Ozolinsh, so he's capable of playing with an offensive defenseman. He could easily take car of the defensive business while Leetch join the rush. I don't see why this pair couldn't have success at this level.

Playing Sergei Zubov with Rod Langway will give him all the liberty he needs offensively. At first, I had planned to put Blake with Langway, but I tought a more offensive defenseman would be better suited as a Langway partner. Also, always thinking of chemistry, Zubov had his best days playing with Derian Hatcher. While they're not the exactly the same kind of defenseman, I'm confident Langway would be able to cover up defensively and physically for Zubov. Physically, I think Hatcher get it over Langway, but defensively, Langway gets the advantage.

I know Randy Carlyle is probably the weakest Norris winner, and I know he isn't very popular here. But I like the idea of having a guy who had some offensive success and who change his style of play and became a more defensive player as he grew older. Pairing him with an other all-aroud defenseman in Blake is the best thing I could do, I think. Speaking of Rob Blake, I think he may be the best defenseman playing on the third pair of this draft.

The thing is, I don’t think Foote is an upgrade on Beukeboom at the ATD level, because you’re swapping out a guy who may have been a top-50 defenseman in the mid 90s NHL, for a guy who’s far below average here - perhaps the 200th best defenseman to use an overly round number - and then placing him next to a guy who has gone from being a Norris contender to an average to weak #1 at this level. I’d rather play Leetch-Beukeboom against the 94 Canucks than play Leetch-Foote against the teams you’ll be facing.

What you’re doing here is keeping a top-4 guy on the ice at all times, which is worth trying, but I’d like to see a rough sketch of a TOI chart before deciding if it benefits you. If Blake is playing any less than 20 minutes a night, or Foote and Carlyle any more than 16 or so, I’d rethink how they’re used.

 

[The Macho King]

With Carlyle, my top 6 is now complete.

#2 Brian Leetch - #52 Adam Foote
#5 Rod Langway - #56 Sergei Zubov
#25 Randy Carlyle - #4 Rob Blake

What do you think of it?

I like my first pair a lot. Brian Leetch had so much succes with Jeff Beukeboom. Having Adam Foote as a partner is a major upgrade for him. Foote won a Cup playing with the high flying Sandis Ozolinsh, so he's capable of playing with an offensive defenseman. He could easily take car of the defensive business while Leetch join the rush. I don't see why this pair couldn't have success at this level.

Playing Sergei Zubov with Rod Langway will give him all the liberty he needs offensively. At first, I had planned to put Blake with Langway, but I tought a more offensive defenseman would be better suited as a Langway partner. Also, always thinking of chemistry, Zubov had his best days playing with Derian Hatcher. While they're not the exactly the same kind of defenseman, I'm confident Langway would be able to cover up defensively and physically for Zubov. Physically, I think Hatcher get it over Langway, but defensively, Langway gets the advantage.

I know Randy Carlyle is probably the weakest Norris winner, and I know he isn't very popular here. But I like the idea of having a guy who had some offensive success and who change his style of play and became a more defensive player as he grew older. Pairing him with an other all-aroud defenseman in Blake is the best thing I could do, I think. Speaking of Rob Blake, I think he may be the best defenseman playing on the third pair of this draft.

I see the logic, but that top pairing bothers me when you have Blake that can fill the role better than Foote. If you're going for 15 15 15 ES ice time per pairing I guess it's justified, but I don't see why you would do that when Carlyle is basically a poor-man's Leetch and Foote is basically a poor-man's Blake. Why not 20 - 15 - 10 with Blake on the top pair?

 

[Dreakmur]

Adam Foote is horribly out of place on a first pair. Actually, in a draft this size, I’m not sure he is even a good 3rdpairing guy. I can think of a dozen undrafted guys I like better.

 

[The Macho King]

Adam Foote is horribly out of place on a first pair. Actually, in a draft this size, I’m not sure he is even a good 3rdpairing guy. I can think of a dozen undrafted guys I like better.

I'm not a big Foote fan generally. But yeah, he sticks out like a sore thumb on the top pair in this. Although TBF I'm not a big Leetch fan either.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

The thing is, I don’t think Foote is an upgrade on Beukeboom at the ATD level, because you’re swapping out a guy who may have been a top-50 defenseman in the mid 90s NHL, for a guy who’s far below average here - perhaps the 200th best defenseman to use an overly round number - and then placing him next to a guy who has gone from being a Norris contender to an average to weak #1 at this level. I’d rather play Leetch-Beukeboom against the 94 Canucks than play Leetch-Foote against the teams you’ll be facing.

What you’re doing here is keeping a top-4 guy on the ice at all times, which is worth trying, but I’d like to see a rough sketch of a TOI chart before deciding if it benefits you. If Blake is playing any less than 20 minutes a night, or Foote and Carlyle any more than 16 or so, I’d rethink how they’re used.

I see the logic, but that top pairing bothers me when you have Blake that can fill the role better than Foote. If you're going for 15 15 15 ES ice time per pairing I guess it's justified, but I don't see why you would do that when Carlyle is basically a poor-man's Leetch and Foote is basically a poor-man's Blake. Why not 20 - 15 - 10 with Blake on the top pair?

Thanks guy for your opinion!

I like the idea of switching Blake and Foote.

Thanks again!

 

[Johnny Engine]

I think you've got it, but I thought of another example that might make my thought process even clearer:

Roman Polak is 100% definitely a better defenseman than Ryan O'Connor. But if you're Miro Heiskenen, playing with Polak for the Dallas Stars doesn't make it easier to win hockey games than playing with O'Connor for HIFK. And that's both because Polak is a below-average NHL defenseman and O'Connor is perfectly good at his level, but also because Heiskanen isn't just running over the NHL himself, despite how talented he is.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Blake is good enough for a top pair, but is he the right guy to play with Leetch? Blake was a great player, but he didn't really play a safe style either, at least not at even strength.

 

[The Macho King]

Blake is good enough for a top pair, but is he the right guy to play with Leetch? Blake was a great player, but he didn't really play a safe style either, at least not at even strength.

I mean - the options are Blake, Zubov, and Foote. Setting aside overloading on DPE Dmen, neither of them make a ton of sense as a partner for Leetch. Blake's the best of three not great options.

Did Langway play RD at all, or can Leetch play the right side? That's probably your best bet.

 

[VanIslander]

Personally, I don't worry too much if I disagree with a GM about WHERE in the line-up a player should be, as, after all, the coach will decide not the GM! And since we are imagining (reasoning counterfactually - an academic tool in the discipline of History) an entire regular season before the playoffs, one imagines the coach will find the ideal alignment, which may be as critics thought rather than what the GM who drafted the guys thought.

The line-up positioning is a tool to help people visualize a 'what if' scenario that might play out differently if it actually would happen.

That said, it's nice to bring up concerns and discuss dynamics as it immerses us in the particulars of hockey history, into actual game situations, skillsets and performances from the past.

 

[tony d]

Your 2019 Quebec Bulldogs starting lineup:

Quebec Bulldogs

Coach:Barry Trotz

Toe Blake-Wayne Gretzky-Mike Bossy
Michel Goulet-Ron Francis-Steve Larmer
Rod Bridnamour-Vyacheslav Starshinov-Ed Westfall
John Tonelli-Doug Jarvis-Tony Amonte

King Clancy-Serge Savard
JC Tremblay-Bll White
Alexander Ragulin-Lloyd Cook

Tony Esposito
Henrik Lundqvist

Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternates: Ron Francis, King Clancy

Special Teams:

PP 1: Blake-Gretzky-Bossy-Clancy-Tremblay
PP 2: Goulet-Brindamour-Larmer-Francis-Cook

PK 1: Westfall-Jarvis-Savard-White
PK 2: Brindamour-Starshinov-Ragulin-Clancy

I think this is a good team, anyone care to share any thoughts on this? I have some ideas of weaknesses here that I'll hopefully cover when I start picking my bench but am always up for a 2nd opinion.

 

[VanIslander]

Amonte could be on the two-way third line and Westfall the shutdown fourth line. It strengthens each line's greatest characteristics.

 

[tony d]

Makes sense, also do I have it right with my 2 PP units? Is Brindamour a believable 2nd line centre on an ATD PP? What about Larmer at right wing on the 2nd RW PP unit?

 

[tinyzombies]

Advice sought: