ATD 2011 Lineup Advice Thread II

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Many us think that lutchenko was better than ragulin. He's definitelely better here than sologubov.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Looking at some of his contemporaries who were named to All Star teams or won best defensemen, there's Tregubov, a guy that's never been selected in any draft here, two guys that are borderline MLD/AAA picks, a guy that was a fringe NHLer and once picked in any draft, and a guy that was a journeyman in second rate leagues that never played in the NHL. To be fair to Sologubov, those last two players I described were when Sologubov was at the very end of his national team career. Not the greatest company. One thing I found very odd was the despite Tregubov being named the best defenseman in 1961, he was not selected to the all star team.

 

[hungryhungryhippy]

Ovechkin regularly gets votes for AS RW. There is a minority of hockey writers who are total idiots

Regardless, i might be showing my age, as I think of demitra in his prime in st louisnasn center who sometimes played RW. Anyway, I'm sold on him as LW. Since playmaking LWs are so rare, you got a mini steal. I like the option that has brad Richards at center, where he belongs. But what to do with tumba, who you solde as better than any of the soviets of the 50s who always get drafted ahead of him?

Actually, I realized later that Demitra also received five 3rd place votes in RW All Star voting that same year.... 15 writers voted for him as a LW, and 5 voted for him as a RW, so I think that pretty much concludes he played mostly LW in 1999, no? Because that accounts for the "minority of idiots", and shows that there probably was no discrepancy with the other 15.

PS. I don't think I ever sold Tumba as better than anyone, or gave any opinions about where he ranks or anything, as I really have no idea. VanI said it would be appropriate to take him, and I liked what I read about his skillset, so I just went ahead and took him. Figured I would learn something new, at least.

Since tumba is apparently pretty gritty, he sounds like he'd make a pretty good fourth liner.

Yeah, he's big and physical... I'm probably going to end up putting him on my fourth line.

He'd be an amazing fourth liner. But he probably deserves more minutes than that ideally. He's below average on a second line but would be top notch on a third scoring line.

Looks like he'll be on the fourth line, I might make it a scoring fourth line since I have a a lot of checking line and two-way players in the top-9. I'd be under-utilizing him, but that's not a bad problem to have. It could give me some extra options in playoff matchups where a checking line isn't as necessary. I could make Tumba's line the third line, instead of Risebrough's, and put Demitra and Leswick on his wings for a pretty good bottom-six scoring line.

 

[vecens24]

Just some more fun things about Sologubov and Tregubov as I keep unearthing them:

Kings of the Ice:

In one regard, however, the two defensemen's tastes were polar opposites. Sologubov was tough - he would tackle his opponents like enemies on a battlefield. Tregubov was also inclined to strike back when under attack, but he never got rough with opponents who preferred gentlemanly play. His brilliant skating and excellent stickhandling allowed him to gain an advantage over opponents even without heavy contact. Due to his fair play, Tregubov was voted the best defenseman at the 1958 and 1961 World Championships.

Ivan Tregubov was part of that first generation of Soviet hockey players who got their initial lessons in the game as mature men. In Russia today, children are taught the science of ice hockey from the age of six, but Tregubov learned the basics of the game in only a week and measured against today's highly trained players would still be considered a leading defenseman.

And this, shamelessly stolen from papershoes in a past ATD:

he was an early russian superstar and, the first russian blueline superstar. russian hockey historians argue for his merit as one of the greatest soviet blueliners ever (alongside fetisov).

while playing for cska moscow, he won 9 soviet championships (1950, 1955, 1956, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1963, 1964).

he's a member of the "fetisov club" - for the all-time top 40 scoring defense players in the soviet and russian elite leagues - ranked 2nd behind only slava fetisov himself.

he's ranked 4th, and the namesake, of the "sologubov club" - for the soviet and post-soviet blueliners that scored 100+ goals in the soviet and russian elite league championships, play-offs, international games of the national team, european cups, nhl and in the championships of the top hockey countries.

add to that the following resume:
- Russian Hockey Hall of Fame (zms, 1956)
- WWII veteran
- USSR Elite Hockey League: 128 goals in 350 games
- WC Gold 1956 and 1963
- WC Silver 1955, 1957, 1958, 1959
- WC Bronze 1960, 1961
- Olympics Gold 1956 - best defender of the tournament
- Olympics Bronze 1960 - best defender of the tournament (at age 35 - 9 pts in 5 games)
- IIHF Best Defensemen Award 1956, 1957, 1960

a prominent nhl player (undrafted at this stage) indicated he was talented enough to play on any nhl team in the original six era. he garnered comparisons to bobby orr and doug harvey.

he might have built an even better resume had the national team been formed prior to him turning 25.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I thoroughly believe sologubov was talented enough to play for an NHL team. But would he have starred? Perhaps.

Honestly, that quote about tregubov spending a week learning the game does not help their case.

 

[vecens24]

I thoroughly believe sologubov was talented enough to play for an NHL team. But would he have starred? Perhaps.

Honestly, that quote about tregubov spending a week learning the game does not help their case.

That quote wasn't about the first part of the quote, more the second part.

but Tregubov learned the basics of the game in only a week and measured against today's highly trained players would still be considered a leading defenseman.

 

[Sturminator]

OK, Gwinnett's powerplay units are finished:

1st unit:

F. Boucher - Heatley - Fredrickson
Coffey // G. Boucher // Timonen

2nd unit:

Foyston - MacLean - Smith
Coffey // G. Boucher // Timonen

- We'll give Brian Rolston cleanup duty for the remaining 5% or so of point time (basically next to Timonen when Coffey - Boucher are stuck out there for a long first shift) rather than Laperriere, as was our original plan. When Rolston gets in there, he'll play the right point with Timonen on the left.

Both units will rely on puck possession and quick movement on the perimeter to set up an initial shot, with netmen Heatley and MacLean in the middle to receive quick feeds and/or clean up any junk around the net. The forwards on the half boards will be free to roam a bit and switch positions with the flow of the play in order to keep the puck moving, and are individually quite interchangeable. Cecil Hart will have the option of changing the look of the forwards in order to exploit matchups - for example, putting Hooley Smith on the first unit to exploit soft first unit PK defensemen. Because of our three man point rotation, the powerplay units are not as atomic as they would be on a normal team, and we felt it would be a bad idea to ice forward lines that played different styles. I think we have achieved a somewhat unconventional, though quite coherent whole in which the defensemen can rotate in and out without having to think about which set of forwards are on the ice, and the coach has a lot of options. I think it will be one of the better powerplays in the league.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

My preference is to list 6 PK forwards, most NHL teams use that.

Fedorov is a great start. Alfredsson is a good option. Lonsberry is OK. Dunno about McKenney, you may know more than I do there.

Roenick, Thompson, and Maclean could all be options for you also. Roenick has always killed penalties and has been a decent SH scoring threat. Maclean was a regular penalty killer for the latter two-thirds of his career.

I read detailed accounts of the 1933-34 Cup finals while researching Johnny Gottselig, and they listed the special teams units used on several occasions. Four Hawk PKs listed the players used. Thompson and his linemate were used once, Gottselig and his linemate were used twice, and once Thompson was the sole forward for a 5-on-3. (Thompson and Gottselig were each in the box for one of the penalties where they did not play).

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like we are going to have to research these guys a little more to find out who will work best.

 

[vecens24]

I thoroughly believe sologubov was talented enough to play for an NHL team. But would he have starred? Perhaps.

Honestly, that quote about tregubov spending a week learning the game does not help their case.

And just to expand upon the first thing you said. I tend to trust the opinions of those NHL players who saw him play. Lynn Patrick seemed to think he would have starred, as evidenced by his willing to put a 2500 dollar price (as you know an extremely large amount of money then) for anyone who could convince him to move to the NHL. Also, the comparisons to Doug Harvey and Bobby Orr aren't thrown around lightly. This makes me feel he would ave been an extremely effective NHL player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I've seen Svedberg, Suchy, and Hod Stuart compared to Bobby Orr too. I don't think it means much other than style.

My own Starshinov is compared to Phil Esposito, for example.

 

[vecens24]

I've seen Svedberg, Suchy, and Hod Stuart compared to Bobby Orr too. I don't think it means much other than style.

My own Starshinov is compared to Phil Esposito, for example.

I'm not saying that I think he would have been as good as these players. BUt I am saying I see no reason this pairing can't be a #2a/2b pairing in this draft. Against better offensive teams/2nd lines, Harmon and Regher will see the majority of minutes. If I get down early, the Sologubov/Tregubov pairing will get more minutes. I have two good/equal in my opinion pairings that are different in what they are able to accomplish. I feel like this isn't a bad thing to have.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess that could work. I'd still feel a lot more comfortable with Harmon next to sologubov, but then I like to give my bottom pair really limited minutes.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Would it be reasonable to play Ovechkin at the point on our first PP unit and then move him up to LW for the second unit?

 

[Velociraptor]

Would it be reasonable to play Ovechkin at the point on our first PP unit and then move him up to LW for the second unit?

Having him on two power plays will undeniably wear him down, I'd keep him on the point for the first one. And have someone like Paul Thompson on the second one maybe?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Would it be reasonable to play Ovechkin at the point on our first PP unit and then move him up to LW for the second unit?

No. Playing forward on the PP is far too tiring. If you want him to play the full PP, he needs to stay at point. Mario Lemieux and maybe Wayne gretzky are the only forwards I think can handle playing the full PP in most cases, because they can loaf the full 2 minutes and still be more dangerous than almost anyone.

This isn't really directed at you, but I think GMs are becoming far too liberal with assuming any player can play the full PP. I say that as one of the GMs whonfully embraced the trend relatively early.

 

[VanIslander]

Ovechkin doesn't play a full 2 minutes on the pp in the NHL so why should he against all-time greats?

 

[jarek]

That said, here is what my PP points currently look like:

Lester Patrick - Yuri Liapkin
Frank Patrick - Earl Seibert

However, I'm thinking of having Liapkin play the entire PP at the point (he can do this, he's going to be given limited at best ES minutes), so that I can play Seibert more on the PK. Thoughts?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

No. Playing forward on the PP is far too tiring. If you want him to play the full PP, he needs to stay at point. Mario Lemieux and maybe Wayne gretzky are the only forwards I think can handle playing the full PP in most cases, because they can loaf the full 2 minutes and still be more dangerous than almost anyone.

This isn't really directed at you, but I think GMs are becoming far too liberal with assuming any player can play the full PP. I say that as one of the GMs whonfully embraced the trend relatively early.

Would you agree that Gonchar could play a full 2 minute PP on the point though?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Would you agree that Gonchar could play a full 2 minute PP on the point though?

Probably not at this level, if he's getting top 4 minutes.

 

[vancityluongo]

Any thoughts on this bottom-6?

Craig Ramsay - Troy Murray - Jimmy Peters
Keith Primeau - Harry Trihey - Corey Perry

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I thought there was a slim chance that would fly, but thought I would ask just in case.

Thompson will play LW on the 1st unit. Maybe John MacLean can play LW on the 2nd? McKenney is an option also, but then Fedorov would have to play center instead of the point.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That said, here is what my PP points currently look like:

Lester Patrick - Yuri Liapkin
Frank Patrick - Earl Seibert

However, I'm thinking of having Liapkin play the entire PP at the point (he can do this, he's going to be given limited at best ES minutes), so that I can play Seibert more on the PK. Thoughts?

You should use liapkin like I am using Boyle - have him stay on later and maybe play the full thing sometimes, bit definitely have another option for mop up duty. Even the beat NHL PP guys usually go off after the first 1:30 or 1:40.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This isn't really directed at you, but I think GMs are becoming far too liberal with assuming any player can play the full PP. I say that as one of the GMs whonfully embraced the trend relatively early.

This is my first ATD but I have to agree.

The quality of the penalty killers in this makes having a player being tired in the last 30-45 seconds a real risky proposition.

Especially a player playing the point.

As you mentioned a Lemieux or a Gretzky could loaf through a powerplay and just expend energy on high percentage plays but they also had the luxury of not being one of the guys at the back.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Any thoughts on this bottom-6?

Craig Ramsay - Troy Murray - Jimmy Peters
Keith Primeau - Harry Trihey - Corey Perry

Trihey was tiny right?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Any thoughts on this bottom-6?

Craig Ramsay - Troy Murray - Jimmy Peters
Keith Primeau - Harry Trihey - Corey Perry

I'd put Primeau at center and Trihey at LW. Primeau was a center in Philly, and I think I remember seeing Trihey listed as a F somewhere. I don't recall Primeau ever playing LW