ATD 2011 Draft Thread VIII

[Velociraptor]

Lorne Chabot:

-Stanley Cup winner x2 (1928, 1932)
-Vezina trophy (1935)
-Ranked #84 on THN top 100 players list.
-Ranked #20 on THN all time goalie rankings (2010)

Any particular reason why he's so criminally underrated around here?

I was shocked to see Chabot was on that list over Tiny Thompson, there's nothing particularly special about him IMO.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I was shocked to see Chabot was on that list over Tiny Thompson, there's nothing particularly special about him IMO.

I think THN put too much stock in cup victories, they had Henri Richard way too high as well and Pierre Pilot was way too low.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Hey I was wondering , when I registered for the ATD I just forgot about it for a while until someone PM'ed me to say I had the 2nd overall , how did the draft lottery was made?

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Hey I was wondering , when I registered for the ATD I just forgot about it for a while until someone PM'ed me to say I had the 2nd overall , how did the draft lottery was made?

Me too since I got 40th!

 

[BenchBrawl]

Me too since I got 40th!

In the next ATD , I don't really care which position I'm gonna be in , I don't think it makes a lot of differance.

I had the 2nd overall but managed to add the 12th also , cost me depth , there's always trades you can work out if necessary.

The funniest position to be is between 18-22 because you never have to wait almost 2 round to pick like us.

 

[Dreakmur]

Hey I was wondering , when I registered for the ATD I just forgot about it for a while until someone PM'ed me to say I had the 2nd overall , how did the draft lottery was made?

Random order. There's a website that you can punch in as many teams as you want, and it will spit out a random order for you. Forget what the site is called.

 

[Stoneberg]

http://www.random.org/lists/

...I assume.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

When I researched Charlie Gardiner, so many of the quotes were basically along the lines "he's the best goalie since..."/"he's even better than..." Georges Vezina/ Hugh Lehman.

I realize that those two are easy comparable to Gardiner since Vezina died young too and Lehman was Gardiner's mentor, but...

But it is safe to say Lehman should have been a starter before this draft.

 

[markrander87]

Can anybody take a list?

Also what happens if somebody leaves a one name list, and whoever takes it doesn't make the pick and then that person is skipped and that player is then selected?

 

[jarek]

I would imagine, upon confirmation that someone else did indeed receive that list, failed to make the pick and sending it to someone else to make the pick, you would get that player and the person who failed to make the listpick would be docked the hour. This, of course, assumes some form of honor exists with that person that was sent the list AND that it was announced in the draft thread that the list was sent to that person.

 

[Sturminator]

But it is safe to say Lehman should have been a starter before this draft.

I think Lehman is actually very similar to Tony Esposito in terms of career and value in the ATD. So yeah, he should have been a starter long before now.

 

[jarek]

Lehman was THE best PCHA goalie, and I don't think it's very close..

Also.. Georges (Joseph) Georges Gonzague "Chicoutimi Cucumber" Vezina

WTF!

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

When is advantage's clock up?

 

[Leaf Lander]

despite it not being my turn Ill select Rick Martin LW in honour of his passing today

even though he is already drafted

 

[Sturminator]

Hmmm... a better "two way" player, meaning not necessarily better offensively or defensively, but better overall? I am not so sure of that. Balon seems to have had a more prominent role in New York when they were together there, but that really seems to be the only advantage he has in a comparison between the two.

**** seventies, it is posts like these, and the need to answer them in detail that makes me tire of the ATD. I will have to get to the specifics of this tomorrow, but are you actually using a comparison of two players' career scoring averages in the expansion era as evidence? You must realize how utterly spurious this argument is. Career numbers are mostly junk anyway, but a comparison between players where both start off as O6 players but one guy plays a whole bunch more post-expansion games is just mind-numbing.

Sadly, the huge distortions of the era in which Nevin and more specifically Balon peaked render your preferred Vs2 method of comparison unintelligible, so we are left with the old method, and under the old method Balon and Nevin come out quite similar as scorers. Balon had the higher peak as a goalscorer, while Nevin was a somewhat better playmaker and had a bit more peak longevity. Offensively, they are very close.

Defensively...ugh, this will take a while to explain. Better leave it for tomorrow.

 

[seventieslord]

I think THN put too much stock in cup victories, they had Henri Richard way too high as well and Pierre Pilot was way too low.

The other thing about that list is, based on the point totals the "big 4" received, they used some sort of a system where you got 100 for a 1st place vote, and 99 for a 2nd, and so on. So that leaves big potential for one "rogue vote" to skew a player's placement. What if one guy thought Chabot was a top-5 goalie and 35th overall? That's 66 points. He'd be ahead of a guy who showed up on 10 ballots at 95th. (10X6)

Hey I was wondering , when I registered for the ATD I just forgot about it for a while until someone PM'ed me to say I had the 2nd overall , how did the draft lottery was made?

it was a random list generating site, I forget which one, and I forget who posted it... but someone did.

But it is safe to say Lehman should have been a starter before this draft.

If the question is, is he a top-28 goalie? Absolutely.

CAlso what happens if somebody leaves a one name list, and whoever takes it doesn't make the pick and then that person is skipped and that player is then selected?

Let's hope that never comes up. My first thoughts are that if it does, the person who sent the list should have left a bigger list, or given it to more than one person, or given it to a person who guaranteed they would be around.

I personally wouldn't want to see the list taker punished, under the "good samaritan act".

 

[advantage2006]

Montreal AAA select: D - Dickie Boon

 

[jarek]

Let's hope that never comes up. My first thoughts are that if it does, the person who sent the list should have left a bigger list, or given it to more than one person, or given it to a person who guaranteed they would be around.

I personally wouldn't want to see the list taker punished, under the "good samaritan act".

Assuming that the person who took the list didn't actually say they were OK to take a list.

 

[vecens24]

Who wants a list for me? It's one man becuase I'm 99.9% certian that Johnny D and Reds don't take him.

 

[jarek]

Send lists here.

 

[seventieslord]

**** seventies, it is posts like these, and the need to answer them in detail that makes me tire of the ATD. I will have to get to the specifics of this tomorrow, but are you actually using a comparison of two players' career scoring averages in the expansion era as evidence? You must realize how utterly spurious this argument is. Career numbers are mostly junk anyway, but a comparison between players where both start off as O6 players but one guy plays a whole bunch more post-expansion games is just mind-numbing.

Sadly, the huge distortions of the era in which Nevin and more specifically Balon peaked render your preferred Vs2 method of comparison unintelligible, so we are left with the old method, and under the old method Balon and Nevin come out quite similar as scorers. Balon had the higher peak as a goalscorer, while Nevin was a somewhat better playmaker and had a bit more peak longevity. Offensively, they are very close.

Defensively...ugh, this will take a while to explain. Better leave it for tomorrow.

I look forward to it. Especially when you explain how the guy who coached them both at the same time, called Nevin the "best two way player in the league".

I have never, ever said, "so and so is better because he has more career goals/points". But career numbers do mean something here, as these players were the same age, and both "benefitted" from expansion to a reasonably close degree - Nevin played 43% more post-expansion games than he did pre-expansion, Balon 27%. OH, WHAT DISTORTION!!!!

let me help you with the pre-and post-expansion numbers:

Balon:

pre-expansion: 342 GP, 72-82-154 (ES 65-69-134) - 0.45 PPG, 0.39 ESPPG
post-expansion: 434 GP, 120-140-260 (ES 91-111-202) - 0.60 PPG, 0.47 ESPPG

Nevin:

pre-expansion: 464 GP, 125-175-300 (ES 91-130-221) - 0.65 PPG, 0.48 ESPPG
post-expansion: 664 GP, 182-244-426 (ES 140-178-318) - 0.64 PPG, 0.48 ESPPG

so, what have I learned from this? First, that the comparison I used in the first place was barely skewed. Nevin playing 45% more games in his career was based on 36% more pre-expansion and 52% more post-expansion. (OH, WHAT DISTORTION! WHAT SPURIOSITY!!!) Second, that Nevin did post more GPG, APG, and PPG in both periods of their careers, both overall and at ES, with one very tiny exception: post-expansion goals (overall, not ES), a category that Balon "wins", 0.276 to 0.274. And of course, anyone would agree that averaging 0.274 for 664 games is better than averaging 0.276 for 434. It should also go without saying that in both periods, Nevin achieved these higher GPG, APG, and PPG averages over larger and more significant sample sizes.

and sorry, but what does the "old method" tell us, exactly? Here are their four best points finishes:

Nevin: 8, 12, 19, 23 (9, 11, 11, 16 ES)
Balon: 10, 25, 26, 33 (3, 11, 17, 28 ES)

They really only have comparable best seasons. Nevin walks away with it after that. Extending the comparison past the 4th-best would be too embarrassing to Balon. But what about goals finishes, since Balon is such a better peak goal scorer?

Balon: 8, 9, 10, 24 (4, 8, 9, 10 ES)
Nevin: 7, 12, 14, 14 (5, 8, 10, 17 ES)

Sorry, that's enough to call Balon enough of a "better goal scorer" that they are "close" offensively? Please, don't make me laugh. (Nevin has an 18th in goals on top of this, too, and again, the dropoff for Balon is steep here beyond 4th-best)

Of course, we both know what the assist figures would look like, so I'll spare you there. And a vs. #2 comparison would tell you exactly what two other methods above just told you - Orr and Esposito are outliers and could be removed, that would be more than fair. But you want to stay away from that; I understand.

Sturm, posts like your last two make me chuckle. You're arguing something that is extremely marginally arguable at best. It's little more than ATD posturing - seeing what you can browbeat into a few GMs. I'm not having it this time, not when it includes my player and not when it's so ridiculous. You've gotten a lot more proficient at it this draft (or maybe I am just better at noticing it?) and considering you have a great habit of making very good selections, I again recommend you let their actual legacies speak for them instead of trying to make them into something they're not.

Hands up if you're convinced Balon is *close* to Nevin offensively!

 

[seventieslord]

Montreal AAA select: D - Dickie Boon

Good pick!

Who wants a list for me? It's one man becuase I'm 99.9% certian that Johnny D and Reds don't take him.

so he played before 1950, then?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

**** seventies, it is posts like these, and the need to answer them in detail that makes me tire of the ATD.

Really? You call out another teams player and it's too tiring to back it up?

Simple solution, don't call out other teams players for no reason...

 

[jarek]

Can you do assists, just for the hell of it?

 

[Reds4Life]

Chicago Steelers select John MacLean, RW