monster_bertuzzi
registered user
I agree with 70's, Gainey's offensive ability (or lack thereof) is even worse in an AT simulation.
That depends on if we're talking fantasy land hockey where you can have 3 finesse guys who were 100 point scoring lady byng winners taken at face value on a front line, or if we're talking about realistically built hockey clubs.
Those finesse guys would get murdered by my front line.
So for Gainey it depends on who he plays with and who he plays against. He can do those things for finesse players he is playing with and he can negate the other teams best player if he is matched up power on power.
Winning board battles, creating turnovers and winning loose pucks is "chipping in" offensively.
I agree with 70's, Gainey's offensive ability (or lack thereof) is even worse in an AT simulation.
I'm not saying that you don't need that kind of stuff on your scoring lines. I'm saying that there are guys who can provide the kind of services Gainey does (though not his level of defense- which you really shouldn't need to the degree Gainey has for scoring line) for a scoring line that are much better than Gainey is offensively, since Gainey is one of the worst forwards draft as far as pure points kind of offense goes.
If we already know when everyone "should" have been picked, and it has already been decided how every player is going to impact fantasyland before we even see who he plays with and the type of team he is on.. what is the point of what we are doing?
If we already know when everyone "should" have been picked, and it has already been decided how every player is going to impact fantasyland before we even see who he plays with and the type of team he is on.. what is the point of what we are doing?
Yes but the point is that top 6 as scorers and bottom 6 as muckers isn't written in stone when building a team. Or it shouldn't be.
A line doesn't have to be a "scoring line" or a "checking line". In a lot of situations if you have a line that is mixed up it makes it more difficult for teams to line match you and you don't need to worry about who they are sending over the boards because you are flexible and not easily exploited by any single weakness.
Trade to announce:
To New Jersey Swamp Devils: Tommy Phillips, 414, 547
To New Haven Nighthawks: picks 251, 310, 491.
TDMM to confirm.
Just because we know one's relative offensive ability does not mean we know where they should be drafted...
It hasn't been decided how every player will impact the ATD with full certainty, since we always find new stuff.
The only thing that is going on here is people knowing Gainey sucks offensively in this context. Which he does, as he makes by far the least offensive impact of any forward drafted thus far and will make less than a lot of forwards to come. That's fine. That's not his job. But it's a minus that some (such as myself) question, question it to the point they wonder if he should be taken now/should be used on any scoring line role.
You certainly have those kind of blends, but then Gainey is so one-dimensional (as in, so debunk of offensive ability) that I don't think a good blend line can be made around him. Just like how no line with, say, a Bure is really ever going to be a "blend" line as you speak, since Bure is so one-dimensional towards offense. Gainey's place, to me, is really likely on a very primary checking line (which can have some two-way ability, but it's probably not going to end up with much).
Not sure I'm putting them all together, but if I do, would Tommy Phillips - Henri Richard - Maurice Richard be the fastest line in the draft?
Most teams hasn't finished building their first line, so it's a bit early to ask. It's definitely a very fast line though
Total Hockey said:He could skate, shoot, and stickhandle, and was considered the best backchecker in the game…was generally regarded as the best player in hockey
legendsofhockey said:He showed himself to be a speed merchant on the blades and had no peer as a backchecker
Lester Patrick said:My opinion is based on consistency of players over a period of years, and the fact that men selected possessed nearly all the fundamentals of an ideal player - physique, stamina, courage, speed, stick-handling, goal-getting ability, skill in passing, proper temperament and, above all, hockey brains
Hockey Hall of Fame said:Hockey Oldtimers who could recall the game as it was played in the early 1900s agreed that he was perhaps the greatest hockey player they had ever seen…He had everything a good player should have: whirlwind speed, a bullet-like shot, stickhandling wizardry, and was regarded as being without peer as a backchecker
Honoured Members said:Out west, he was often called the greatest player in the game
Ultimate Hockey said:Virtually overnight, he was the talk of the hockey world. Stories were told of a speed demon from out west, a hockeyist “game†to the core. This man had a vast repertoire of skills, each of them polished to a glimmer. He controlled the puck exceptionally well, possessed a deadly shot, and had a knack for defensive pursuits, most notably the backcheck… He had a devastating shot. His blasts were often referred to as “cross firesâ€. At a tme when hockey fans argued on behalf of the (3 undrafteds redacted) as hockey’s top player, “Nibs†was easily the all-around pick of the litter
Very surprised to see Gainey getting picked so early , especially when you consider some his teammates are still undrafted and clearly better player.I guess his defensive play is really appreciated that much.Personally I think defensive play alone is overrated.It's good to have with something else , but when it's almost your only weapon...
Some quick facts on Tommy Phillips aka "Nibs":
-One of the inaugural members of the Hockey Hall of Fame, and he didn't have to die as a player to do it.
-2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1903, 1907)
-5 x Stanley Cup Finalist (1903, 1904, 1905, 1907, 1909)
-Selected to The Hockey News’ pre-NHL First All-Star Team (in other words, THN considered him the best LW to play the game of the pre-NHL era)
Ultimate Hockey awarded him:
“Best All-Around Player†of 1900-1909
“Best Defensive Forward†of 1900-1909
Scoring:
5 x Top-3 in Points (1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908)
2 x Stanley Cup Challenge leading scorer (1905, 1907)
3 x Led his own team in Cup Scoring (1904, 1905, 1907)
Quotes via Dreakmur:
I have a couple lists (DoMakc & LL), can anyone take em?
I agree with 70's, Gainey's offensive ability (or lack thereof) is even worse in an AT simulation.
Legends of Hockey said:Basing his game on discipline and a strong physical presence, Ferdinand Charles Flaman was one of the game's top stay-at-home defensemen in the 1950s. Although he contributed to his team's transitional game when needed, it was as an open-ice bodychecker and for his ability to clear opponents from around his goal that Flaman acquired his reputation.
Despite the load of players they acquired in exchange for Flaman, many Bruins observers panned the deal as a detriment to their club. Flaman fitted in with his new club and became renowned for his hitting. Later that spring, he played an integral role on the blue line when Toronto won the Stanley Cup.
During his second stint in Beantown, he took on a greater leadership role than previously.
Joe Pelletier's Greatest Hockey Legends said:Ferny Flaman, the Scott Stevens of his day.
Flaman was a rugged, no-nonsense defenseman with the Boston Bruins and Toronto Maple Leafs for 15 National Hockey League seasons. He scored just 34 career goals, but Flaman was known more for his vicious body checking, his aggressive play and his uncanny shot blocking ability.
After establishing himself as a feared enforcer, thanks largely to memorable battles with the Leafs' xxx and xxx, Flaman never went looking for a fight, though he found more than a few anyways. He was always the first player to arrive on the scene should one of his teammates find themselves in any sort of peril.
Far more impressive than his fistic ability was his feared status in the bodychecking department.
Flaman developed a reputation as one of the leagues most feared hitters and classic defensive blueliners while in Toronto.
Mike Wyman; Golden Years: Fern Flaman said:Warren Zevon wrote a hockey song about a big farm boy from Saskatchewan. He called it “Hit Somebody,†a title that pretty much sums up Fern Flaman’s career. A big, strong kid from Saskatchewan’s farm country.
The 5-foot-10, 190-pounder joined a team that featured the kraut Line of Schmidt, xxx and xxx up front and was backstopped by Frank Brimsek in nets. Flaman’s role was a simple one. As a stay-at-home defenceman he was charged with defending his territory against invaders by whatever means necessary.
With both the physique and the attitude needed, he did the job for the next three complete seasons. Flaman flattened forwards coming too close to the Bruins net and laid others out in open ice with body checks that made many opponents reluctant to return to his side of the ice. When it was bare-knuckle time, Flaman administered more than a few thrashings to pugilistic foes, carving out a reputation as one of the NHL’s top brawlers that would follow him for the rest of his career.
Flaman’s robust approach was a major contribution to the Leafs success the next spring as they rolled over his old mates from Boston in five games.
Back in black, Flaman showed that he had a few offensive skills, picking up 18 points in 1954-55, the most he had put on the score sheet as a big leaguer while continuing to be a guy opposing forwards kept an eye out for when they crossed the Boston blue line.
Named captain upon Milt Schmidt’s retirement, Flaman kept the C for the rest of his Boston tenure, a forceful presence who led by example and took his somewhat underpowered team into the playoffs in three of the next six seasons.
Who's Who in Hockey said:Before Bobby Orr and the Big Bad Bruins came along in the late 1960's, the Boston hockey club was notorious as a bashing sextet. From 1954 through 1961, it's chief basher was defenseman Ferdinand Charles Flaman, a smooth-skating defenseman who broke into hockey as a teenager during World War II.
Rare was the night when Flaman lost a fight. He decisioned Rangers' badman xxx at Madison Square Garden and once nearly killed Montreal's Henri Richard with a devastating, but legal body check during a game at Boston Garden.
Joseph R. Beare; Boston's Fern Flaman: The consummate Bruin and Husky (1/31/2007) said:Flaman, who is famous both for his storied NHL career and his 19-year tenure as a division one NCAA coach, retired from hockey in 1989, but left a mark on Boston sports history that will not soon fade.
Born on January 25, 1927, in Dysart, Saskatchewan, Flaman quickly developed into a hard-nosed and steady stay-at-home defenseman. Flaman was famous for his grit and character.
In the "Original Six" era, teams often played each other in back-to-back games, so resentment from previous nights would invariably spill over to the next contest. Flaman did not take lightly any slights against his club and was notorious for having his gloves off, and his stick cast aside, before the finish of the national anthems.
His willingness to battle for teammates and refusal to shy away from the rough aspects of the game made him a perfect candidate for Bruins captaincy and he served as Boston’s leader from his return in 1955 until his retirement in 1961.
Fred Cusick: voice of the Bruins said:From the outset, Fernie was a fan favorite. He was a hard-hitting defenseman who could deliver open ice body checks and keep the front of the net clear.
The Bruins Black and White: 1924-1966 said:When it came to defending the territory in front of the net, Fernie Flaman gave no quarter. Flaman fought battles with some of the premier hard hitters of the era: Rocket Richard, Ted Lindsay and xxx.
Boston Bruins: Greatest Moment and Players said:Fernie achieved permanent status in 1946-47 with the Bruins and became an instant favorite in Beantown, where his lusty bodychecks and potent fists endeared him to the Boston Garden faithful.
Thus, it seemed eminently appropriate that the Bruins reclaimed Flaman in a trade at the start of the 1954-55 season. Having matured while losing none of his mustard, Flaman added spice to the Boston backline that made him one of the most feared player in hockey.
Hockey's Glory days: the 1950's and 6s said:Fern Flaman was a tough, stay-at-home defenseman known for his powerful bodychecks and his ability to cleat the area in front of his team's goal.
Weekend Magazine (02/09/1959) said:Strickly of the hockey hardrock is defenseman veteran Ferdinand Charles Flaman, captain of the Boston Bruins.
While an extensive sin-bin record dosn't carry an automatic stamp of greatness, it must be borne in mind that a bashing defenseman may influence people, but he hardly wins friends among opposition. It was recently figure that Fern has probably had more bouts on ice than Floyd Patterson has had in the ring. nd it must be added that Fern dosn't pick his spots - among those with whom he has slashed have been ''Rocket'' Richard, xxx, Beliveau, xxx, Harvey, xxx, Olmstead and xxx.
He has been a major star ever since. Boston likes his hockey in the bashing tradition of Eddie Shore and Flaman was made for Boston.