ATD #11, Jim Robson Semifinals. Nanaimo Clippers (1) vs. Kilkenny Bustards (4)

[seventieslord]

Please post your rosters. If I have made any mistake in the titling of this thread, please let me know and I will edit it. Good luck to both.

Click to read more...

 

[DoMakc]

Kilkenny Bustards

Coach: Ken Hitchcock
72 John Tonelli - 19 Bryan Trottier - 16 Brett Hull
40 Henrik Zetterberg - 10 Ron Francis - 12 Bryan Hextall Sr.
8 Dick Duff - 17 Rod Brind'Amour - 33 Dirk Graham
22 John Ferguson - 25 Keith Primeau - 11 Kevin Dineen
21 Ivan Hlinka, 13! HÃ¥kan Loob

27 Scott Niedermayer - 4 Kevin Lowe
3 Harry Howell - 55 Larry Murphy
23 Petr Svoboda - 28 Reed Larson
44 Kimmo Timonen

1 Glenn Hall
? Normie Smith

PP1: Hull-Trottier-Tonelli
Larson-Murphy

PP2: Zetterberg-Brind'amour-Hextall
Niedermayer-Francis

PK1: Brind'amour - Graham
Howell-Lowe

PK2: Primeau - Duff
Niedermayer-Svoboda

PK3: Trottier - Zetterberg
Lowe - Murphy​

Good luck, pitseleh.

 

[pitseleh]

Nanaimo Clippers

GM: pitseleh
Coach: Art Ross
Captain: Gordie Howe
Alternate Captains: Bert Olmstead, Al MacInnis

Bert Olmstead (a) - Nels Stewart - Gordie Howe (c)
Dean Prentice - Adam Oates - Peter Bondra
Don Marshall - Art Chapman - Tony Leswick
Markus Naslund - Paul Ronty - Andy Hebenton
Billy Reay, Harry Oliver

Bill Gadsby - Al MacInnis (a)
Pat Stapleton - Bill White
Bucko McDonald - Jiri Bubla
Yuri Liapkin

Tony Esposito
Alex Connell

PP1: Bert Olmstead - Nels Stewart - Gordie Howe - Pat Stapleton - Al MacInnis
PP2: Markus Naslund - Adam Oates - Peter Bondra - Bill Gadsby - Jiri Bubla

PK1: Don Marshall - Tony Leswick - Bill Gadsby - Al MacInnis
PK2: Dean Prentice - Art Chapman - Pat Stapleton - Bill White​

Best of luck you guys too. You've put together a heck of a team.

 

[pitseleh]

Some initial thoughts on personnel:

- Goaltending is going to be a big advantage for Kilkenny.

- On the other hand, Nanaimo has the two best defensemen in the series on the top pairings while Kevin Lowe is the 8th best defenseman in the series.

- The second pairings are virtual carbon copies of one another. Howell and White are the dependable defensive defensemen while Murphy and Stapleton are the heady puck movers. Howell had the best single season and a longer career but White had three seasons where he was a Norris finalist (behind two of Park, Orr, and Lapointe those three seasons). Murphy and Stapleton were both three time second team all-stars in the NHL. Stapleton was also a first team all-star twice in the WHA while Murphy spent more time in the 5-10th range in the NHL. It's about as close as it gets.

- Don't think either third pairing will play much.

- I think it makes sense to compare the first lines in terms of the purpose each player serves on the line:

Bert Olmstead vs. John Tonelli - both guys will do a good job of digging in the corners and playing defense. I give Olmstead a slight edge for his 3 top-2 assist and 4 top-10 point finishes, compared to no top-10s for Tonelli.

Nels Stewart vs. Brett Hull - Both players are the trigger men on their respective lines. Hull won his three scoring titles by fairly substantial margins but Stewart finished top-10 in goals 13 times to 8 times for Hull - I think I give Hull a slight edge for overall goal scoring. Stewart put up better point totals throughout his career and gets the physical play edge though.

Gordie Howe vs. Bryan Trottier - don't think there's much to be said here - both guys will the offensive catalysts of their lines. Trottier was a terrific player but he was no Gordie Howe.

- The second lines are pretty much identically constructed. In terms of just the offensive potential, Oates-Bondra and Francis-Hextall are pretty much even but Kilkenny will get more intangibles from their pair.

- Third lines are pretty much even too. They both have one two-way as opposed to shut down player (Duff and Chapman) paired with two strong defensive players.

- The fourth lines serve very different functions.

On the surface, it looks like:

Kilkenny will win if the two-way play of their second line will be a significant contributor to them outscoring Nanaimo at even strength and if Hall can outplay Esposito by a fairly substantial margin.

Nanaimo will win if the extra scoring they should get from their first line, fourth line, and first defensive pairing can overcome their deficiencies in net and on the second line.

 

[DoMakc]

I agree with the most of your comments, but...

... your first line may have edge in terms of better players, but i think ours is better as a unit, I actually don't think that Howe will play well with Nels Stewart - Stewert was known as scorer, but lazy backchecker:

I always felt that Stewart had an exaggerated reputation. I never thought he was such a great player. Nels was big and tall but awfully lazy. He wouldn't backcheck and he'd just stand around the net waiting for the centering pass, then flip the puck in. That much he could do. We used to say that Nels stood in one spot all of the time

http://montrealmaroons.blogspot.com/2008/03/nels-stewart.html

so you'll need somebody who can cover for him and feed him and Howe is your best playmaker and best defencive player on this line, so he will be capable of doing that, but he won't be as effective as if he'd play with Delvecchio-like center, because he will have much more responsibilities this time.


... i agree that you have two best defencmen in this series, but my forwards are much better defencively and my defence will get much more help, while 3 of your lines feature at least forward, you can't really rely defencively.

... i think you are selling my second pair a bit short. While Howell didn't get another honours besides his Norris and 1st team 1967, but i think it's more to do with him playing on some weak Rangers teams and flying under radar then with him not being worthy. You don't become the best defenceman in the NHL overnight. I found an interesting quote while I was searching for some stats. And Murphy additionally to his 3 2nd Allstar teams, was 5th, 6th and 7th in the Norris trophy voting.


...while our 3rd lines are compareble in terms of defencive ability, ours is better offensively, espesially in the playoffs. And they will have their opportunities to score because of Nels Stewart's lack of defencive abilities.

...as you said Glenn Hall gives us a huge edge at the most important position.

...i don't think your 4th line will be a big factor. They don't get any easy matchu ups or significant minutes to contribute much.

...i think our 2nd line can outperform yours going vis a vis, because they are better defencively.

... i'm going to play Howell-Murphy against your top line, they are too slow to expose the only weakness of that pairing - foot speed, so i think they'll do a very good job shutting your top line down.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Who coaches the Kilkenny Bustards?

 

[seventieslord]

I thought DoMakc fired him with three games left in the regular season and went behind the bench himself.

 

[DoMakc]

Who coaches the Kilkenny Bustards?

Ken Hitchcock does. Sorry, I failed at copy-paste.

I thought DoMakc fired him with three games left in the regular season and went behind the bench himself.

We talked so much tactics last series with papershoes, so I was under impression, I'm really coaching this team.

 

[pitseleh]

I agree with the most of your comments, but...

... your first line may have edge in terms of better players, but i think ours is better as a unit, I actually don't think that Howe will play well with Nels Stewart - Stewert was known as scorer, but lazy backchecker:



http://montrealmaroons.blogspot.com/2008/03/nels-stewart.html

I'm not going to argue that Stewart was a good defensive player because he's not, but neither was Brett Hull. But he was dependable enough to win a Stanley Cup while playing defense full time. I think lackadaisical is a better term to describe him than lazy. Here's a quote I dug up from the NY Times in 1927.

Nels Stewart of the Maroons is just the opposite [he was being compared to King Clancy]. His hair doesn't stand on end. He wears a cap. He doesn't glare or charge wildly up and down the ice. He grins and appears to be skating aimlessly around in no hurry to get anywhere. He looks as though butter wouldn't melt in his mouth - until there's a sudden rush on the Maroons's goal to be broken up.

You often see big guys get chastised for appearing to not be trying. Look at what Mahovlich went through in his career and he put up some of the most consistent goal scoring numbers in NHL history. Stewart's paired with two extremely responsible defensive players in Olmstead and Howe up front and with two very good defensive defensemen. I think we've got a unit that is well suited to deal with Stewart's deficiencies.

so you'll need somebody who can cover for him and feed him and Howe is your best playmaker and best defencive player on this line, so he will be capable of doing that, but he won't be as effective as if he'd play with Delvecchio-like center, because he will have much more responsibilities this time.

Olmstead's role on the line is to do exactly that. He was known for being a very good defensive player, and he was also a very good playmaker, finishing 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 9th in assists. We've basically got two very similarly constructed first lines, only Howe was a better playmaker than Trottier and Olmstead was a better playmaker than Tonelli.

... i agree that you have two best defencmen in this series, but my forwards are much better defencively and my defence will get much more help, while 3 of your lines feature at least forward, you can't really rely defencively.

You don't need all five guys to be effective defensively for a line to function. I agree you have an edge in defensive play from your forwards overall, but most of our forwards are responsible defensively as well, so it's not like you're facing off a team of good two-way players against a team full of one-way scorers.

...while our 3rd lines are compareble in terms of defencive ability, ours is better offensively, espesially in the playoffs. And they will have their opportunities to score because of Nels Stewart's lack of defencive abilities.

Art Chapman is easily the best offensive player on either of our third lines. I know you'll point to his playoff record, but he has the misfortune of having most of his playoff games in four season where he was not a top line player. Only the 35/36 and 37/38 playoffs were during his prime, and he scored 4 points in 11 games during those two seasons, not really out of line with what stars during the 30s put up in terms of point totals especially when you consider it's a small sample size.

Duff over Marshall negates that difference. I don't think you can say that Graham was a better playoff scorer than Leswick, but Leswick was a better scorer during the regular season. Overall, if there is a difference offensively, I don't think it's significant in either direction.

...i don't think your 4th line will be a big factor. They don't get any easy matchu ups or significant minutes to contribute much.

I think the biggest advantage our fourth line gives us is on the PP, where Naslund-Oates-Bondra is a much, much stronger offensive line than Zetterberg-Brind'amour-Hextall.

 

[DoMakc]

Stewart's paired with two extremely responsible defensive players in Olmstead and Howe up front and with two very good defensive defensemen. I think we've got a unit that is well suited to deal with Stewart's deficiencies.

But that's actually my point - your first line isn't built to maximize Howe's strength, he is the offencive player on this line and has to cover for Stewart, he is the best goalscorer on that line and has to pass the puck to Stewart.

Olmstead's role on the line is to do exactly that. He was known for being a very good defensive player, and he was also a very good playmaker, finishing 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 9th in assists. We've basically got two very similarly constructed first lines, only Howe was a better playmaker than Trottier and Olmstead was a better playmaker than Tonelli.

Olmstead may be better in the regular season, but Tonelli was much better in playoffs - 5 times over 0.5 and twice over 0.4 assist per game for Tonelli vs. twice and once for Olmstead, and Bert was just once under 0.4 apg in the regular season, it was his rookie season in chicago. And Tonelli was a better goalscorer. Generally, Olmstead playoff resume looks rather weak, espesially for somebody who played for Canadiens' dynasty teams. And Howe's edge on Trottier in terms of playmaking isn't that big. They both are great playmaker, but Howe is a bit greater

I think the biggest advantage our fourth line gives us is on the PP, where Naslund-Oates-Bondra is a much, much stronger offensive line than Zetterberg-Brind'amour-Hextall.

But we have Ron Francis on our 2nd PP-unit, who was 7 times Top 10 for a and is fourth for career in PP-goals scored for with him on the ice.

 

[seventieslord]

The Nanaimo Clippers (1) vs. The Kilkenny Bustards (4)

Game Results:

Nanaimo Clippers: 4 - Kilkenny Bustards: 2
Nanaimo Clippers: 3 - Kilkenny Bustards: 4 OT
Kilkenny Bustards: 4 - Nanaimo Clippers: 5
Kilkenny Bustards: 1 - Nanaimo Clippers: 3
Nanaimo Clippers: 4 - Kilkenny Bustards: 1

The Nanaimo Clippers (1) defeats The Kilkenny Bustards (4) in 5 games.


Series Three Stars

1: Gordie Howe - Nanaimo Clippers
2: Nels Stewart - Nanaimo Clippers
Co-3: Glenn Hall - Kilkenny Bustards
Co-3: Al MacInnis - Nanaimo Clippers


Series Recap:

- Gordie Howe was far and away the best player on either team. Scoring an astonishing 6 goals and 10 points in 5 games, ''Mr.Hockey'' was also incredibly physical. The duo of Scott Niedermayer and Kevin Lowe were completely impotent against Gordie and either was the Kilkenny puck stopper Glenn Hall

- Tony Esposito was shaky at time, but was still able to come out with some good saves. However, it was obvious that the brilliant play of the defensives squad in front of him was a huge help. Still, ''Tony O'' was not as execrable as some people thought he would

- Even in his team lost, an unsong hero for the Kilkenny Bustards was center Rod Brind'Amour, who outplayed his rival Art Chapman. With the game winner on the Kilkenny's only win and some tremendous defensive plays, he was one of his team better player.