ATD #11, Bob Cole Quarterfinals. Trail Smoke Eaters (4) vs. Killarney Country Bear(5)

[shawnmullin]

Are you on Killarny's payroll Seventies? Yikes I don't agree with much of that list. It's obvious who your horse is in this one.

And Champagne for god's sake you missed the point of me bringing up Morenz's playoff record entirely. It had nothing to do with me truly believing he's not valuable in the playoffs.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And Champagne for god's sake you missed the point of me bringing up Morenz's playoff record entirely. It had nothing to do with me truly believing he's not valuable in the playoffs.

Sorry bud, I musta missed your point. You seemed to be wanting to show that Morenz is a legend but a relatively underwhelming playoff performer, but I don't think that's the case when taking his '24 and '25 playoffs into consideration and putting his other numbers into context.

If I buggered that up (which is a definite possibility), please let me know.

 

[VanIslander]

I like the Jamboree but the lower seed drew a team they aren't ideally built to beat.

The Smoke Eaters aren't built on top end centers so Carbonneau and Skov can do their checking and the opposition will still thrive at what they do best: score from the wing, on traffic around the net, on broken plays, and from even the fourth line, then close the door.

Morenz and Schmidt will get their points but a two-line offense against deeper offense, better coaching and better goaltending is going to be difficult. Langway will make it all that much harder.

Moreover, however much I like Bruce Stewart, the Killarney third and fourth lines aren't built for the power forward. It's a waste. Throw Datsyuk off the first line and move Stewart to the left side and prospects improve. Or move Broten into the starting line-up and bench Skov.

Good luck!

 

[shawnmullin]

I was grumpy is all, but the point was that Morenz's playoff record alone would make him look bad unless you take his whole career in context. Like the opposite of Smith

I've had fun debating here tho, no hard feelings of course.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I was grumpy is all, but the point was that Morenz's playoff record alone would make him look bad unless you take his whole career in context. Like the opposite of Smith

I've had fun debating here tho, no hard feelings of course.

Hey man, it's all part of the ATD. I like the nasty part of the game when I'm playing, so a war of words ain't gonna bother me.

Mucking it up, taking and delivering big hits...that's one of the best parts of hockey for me. Mostly because if I didn't do that stuff, I couldn't make it on skill.

As for Morenz' playoffs, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Post-season totals were notoriously up-and-down for virtually all the best players of the era, and to me, it's difficult to knock a guy who led the league in playoff scoring twice. Nobody in league history did it more than twice until Howe came along. That's impressive.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The Smoke Eaters aren't built on top end centers so Carbonneau and Skov can do their checking and the opposition will still thrive at what they do best: score from the wing, on traffic around the net, on broken plays, and from even the fourth line, then close the door.

If Carbonneau and Skov were the only defensive forwards on my team, this would hold more weight. But wingers like Datsyuk, Aurie, Northcott, Broadbent, Galbraith and Finnigan are all superb in their own end, with Selkes, retro-Selkes, and Top Defensive Player Of His Eras galore. Even discounting my pivots, Trail's wingers will have precious little time and space to operate with.

Never mind around the net, where my defensive defensemen are among the biggest (relative to era) and smartest in the draft. They'll ensure Billy can see the puck, and they'll clear out the rebounds efficiently.

Moreover, however much I like Bruce Stewart, the Killarney third and fourth lines aren't built for the power forward. It's a waste. Throw Datsyuk off the first line and move Stewart to the left side and prospects improve. Or move Broten into the starting line-up and bench Skov.

Stuart isn't the prototypical plodding ,offense-only power forward though. He was a big man who could score and play an all-around game, and "he excelled as a rover due to his excellent skating abilities". Plus taking out Datsyuk would destroy my first line dynamic and there's really no good reason to move him.

Broten will be in my starting line-up, seeing as how there's no excess of "big man" scoring center threats for Trail and I could use a little more scoring on the bottom lines for this series.

 

[seventieslord]

Are you on Killarny's payroll Seventies? Yikes I don't agree with much of that list. It's obvious who your horse is in this one.

Absolutely not. We've had our run-ins too. Cleghorn/Broadbent, anyone? I do agree with EB that Galbraith is probably the worst offensive forward in the draft.

I simply think Killarney has the better overall defensive ability in their forward corps. Never commented on offense, toughness, or overall ability/cohesion. Just thought I'd answer something that interested me.

I was actually hoping one or both of you would say "actually, XXXXXXXX should be ahead of those three guys, because __________" - I'm not an expert on every single player. I am an expert on players I've drafted, or played against in a series. After four drafts, that's still not a lot of player. I learn from the drafts and I hope one of you will school me on a few players I was wrong about.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I was actually hoping one or both of you would say "actually, XXXXXXXX should be ahead of those three guys, because __________" - I'm not an expert on every single player. I am an expert on players I've drafted, or played against in a series. After four drafts, that's still not a lot of player. I learn from the drafts and I hope one of you will school me on a few players I was wrong about.

Well, I'll do my best.

I'll start with the defensemen. Trail guys in bold:

Langway
Savard
Mantha
Vasko
Colville
Burrows
Cameron
Heller
Wilson
Sjoberg
Bergman
Ruotsalainen

Here's how I'd tier it (and in no particular order within the tiers, so I'll just do it alphabetically):

Langway
Mantha
Savard

Burrows

Heller
Vasko

Bergman
Cameron
Sjoberg
Wilson

Ruotsalainen

As for forwards:

Guy Carbonneau
Milt Schmidt
RW Claude Provost
C Dave Keon
Perk Galbraith
C Troy Murray
Pavel Datsyuk
Baldy Northcott
Punch Broadbent
Frank Finnigan
Howie Morenz
LW Dave Balon
Glen Skov
Larry Aurie
LW Clark Gillies
RW Rene Robert
Harry Westwick
Bruce Stuart
C Duke Keats
RW Ed Litzenberger
LW Charlie Simmer
C Ulf Nilsson
RW Mike Bossy
LW Vladimir Krutov

Carbonneau
Finnigan
Keon
Provost
Schmidt

Datsyuk
Galbraith
Westwick

Aurie
Broadbent
Morenz
Murray
Northcott
Skov

Balon
Robert
Stuart

Gillies
Keats
Nilsson

Bossy
Krutov
Litzenberger
Simmer

Litzenberger stood out to me in a negative way, with anything I've read contradicting what shawn has said about him being a good two-way player. UH said "he avoided back-checking as if it were the plague" and quotes hockey historian Charles L. Coleman as saying "(he) was more of an offensive player than defensive player...he was somewhat tempermental and did not always display his full talent".

 

[shawnmullin]

Wow Champagne your list is a hilarious propaganda but I don't have time to deal with it. I trust the people here to make up their own mind.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Wow Champagne your list is a hilarious propaganda but I don't have time to deal with it. I trust the people here to make up their own mind.

Hey, don't blame me...do you think you got the advantage in offensive depth at no cost? Check the accolades and contemporary accounts - there's a reason I picked the players I picked.

Whether it's important to the voters is another matter.

 

[Sturminator]

Regarding these lists, my only comment is that Doug Wilson is tragically underrated by you two. You don't place top-4 in Norris voting four times and top-10 in Hart twice because you're weak defensively. I saw a lot of Wilson during his prime, and at his peak he was every bit as good as Al MacInnis, IMO, it's just that his peak was shorter. Although I understand that the lists are only ranking the blueliners by "defensive value", I still don't like Wilson's placement here. He deserves better.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Regarding these lists, my only comment is that Doug Wilson is tragically underrated by you two. You don't place top-4 in Norris voting four times and top-10 in Hart twice because you're weak defensively. I saw a lot of Wilson during his prime, and at his peak he was every bit as good as Al MacInnis, IMO, it's just that his peak was shorter. Although I understand that the lists are only ranking the blueliners by "defensive value", I still don't like Wilson's placement here. He deserves better.

It's no slight to put him where I had him, I don't think. The players in his tier were quite good in their own end, if not quite at the level of a guy who was more intently focused on defense like Heller.

 

[Sturminator]

It's no slight to put him where I had him, I don't think. The players in his tier were quite good in their own end, if not quite at the level of a guy who was more intently focused on defense like Heller.

Considering how generously you rank Sylvio Mantha, I still think you're stiff-arming Wilson pretty badly. Sylvio Mantha as good defensively as Langway and Savard?! Really? I am a huge fan of Mantha's (and think that's he's ridiculously good for a 2nd pairing) and even I wouldn't put him in the same class as two guys who are probably top-5 all-time defensive defensemen. I mean...who, in the history of hockey, was definitely better in his own zone than Langway and Savard? Doug Harvey, and...?

My top-5 all-time defensive defensemen would probably be:

1) Harvey
2) Langway
3) Seibert
4) Savard
5) Horton

...with guys like Stewart, Lidstrom, Stevens, etc. occupying the next slots in the hierarchy. At any rate, as much as I like Mantha, I think there is a definite gap between his defensive skills and those of the very greatest of all-time. My personal ranking of the defensemen in this series (speaking only of defensive value) would be:

Langway
Savard

Mantha

Vasko
Wilson
Burrows
Heller

Bergman
Cameron

Sjoberg
Ruotsalainen

Not so different from your list, but maybe a little less friendly to Killarney. What makes you think Heller was better in his own end than Doug Wilson, anyway? Heller was actually quite the puckmover in his day - not really a stay-at-home type. Wilson was an outstanding power play performer with that shot of his, but was not a big even-strength risk taker. He was a strong shutdown defenseman in his day. If his health hadn't been so checkered, Wilson could have easily had a career much like that of MacInnis.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Considering how generously you rank Sylvio Mantha, I still think you're stiff-arming Wilson pretty badly. Sylvio Mantha as good defensively as Langway and Savard?! Really? I am a huge fan of Mantha's (and think that's he's ridiculously good for a 2nd pairing) and even I wouldn't put him in the same class as two guys who are probably top-5 all-time defensive defensemen. I mean...who, in the history of hockey, was definitely better in his own zone than Langway and Savard? Doug Harvey, and...?

I can see putting Mantha a step below Langway and Savard. Looking back, that's probably more accurate.

My personal ranking of the defensemen in this series (speaking only of defensive value) would be:

Langway
Savard

Mantha

Vasko
Wilson
Burrows
Heller

Bergman
Cameron

Sjoberg
Ruotsalainen

Burrows certainly deserves to be in the tier below the very best with Mantha. He was an extraordinary skater and arguably the best in his own zone of his era - his entire game was defense, and he excelled at it. He was tutored as a rookie by his hero, Tim Horton, and at the tender age of 26 was already hailed in some quarters as the league's best defensive defensemen (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089797/index.htm).

Legends says:

"...one of the NHL's best defensive rearguards...n his prime, he could skate faster backwards than most players could move forwards, and as such, could stifle any one-on-one threat with exceptional efficiency.

Pelletier adds:

"...he relied on a greater understanding of the game to be in perfect position no matter what scenario he was faced with. He was an expert shot blocker and above all else, was known as one of the best skaters of his time. He amazed many observers with his incredible speed and agility."

Sjoberg also deserves to be higher than Ruotsalainen, who really wasn't in The Little General/The Professor's league in his own end. Shoe didn't captain a dynasty Jets team and get named "Best Defenseman" in a World Championships where he scored one measly point for his offense alone. He was great in Canada Cup '76 too, so we know he can handle the best the ATD has to offer.

At under 5'8", the compact player managed to become the Swedish national team's leading defenseman in the late 1960s and early 1970s because of his excellent skating skills and persistent training. His talent for choosing the right position, combined with effective bodychecking, made him a virtually impenetrable force to opposing forwards.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=14334

He was simply an incredibly smart, fast, skilled defender, and I don't see any comparable assessments for Reijo.

Not so different from your list, but maybe a little less friendly to Killarney. What makes you think Heller was better in his own end than Doug Wilson, anyway? Heller was actually quite the puckmover in his day - not really a stay-at-home type. Wilson was an outstanding power play performer with that shot of his, but was not a big even-strength risk taker. He was a strong shutdown defenseman in his day. If his health hadn't been so checkered, Wilson could have easily had a career much like that of MacInnis.

He sure was a stay-at-home type. Just because he has the speed to move the puck out of the zone doesn't mean he wasn't a bulwark in his own end. UHsays:

"...he was the model of consistency on the blueline, a master of guarding the fort. His breathtaking speed and skating, however, also allowed him the option of leading the ODD rush. He was the definition of an all-around talent."

Which is why Lester Patrick called him "the perfect hockey player", which presumably means, as one of the game's greats at the position critiquing another defenseman, Heller was pretty damn good in his own end.

Further, during the '41-'42 season, he and Babe Pratt combined to form the NHL's best defense pairing and allow a league-low 17 goals over a 48 game schedule (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080...er.jsp?mem=p196608&page=bio&list=ByYear#photo).

And to steal some of pits' old finds:

“Heller made our team this year. We were awful at the start of the season. Heller stopped that. He seemed to organize the team. They rallied around him. It was wonderful, no fooling. That’s why were leading the league now. The answer is Heller.†– Lester Patrick on the Rangers’ huge turnaround in 41/42.

“The big difference is back of the blue line. I’ll put the Rangers on top there. Striking them at 100%, I’d make Chicago 90% on the defense and the Leafs and Boston 80%. Where the Rangers have the big edge is that if it ever comes down to the last five minutes and they’re a goal on top, they can put Heller and Coulter out there together and neither of those birds will make a mistakeâ€. - Conn Smythe, 1940.

 

[shawnmullin]

Well it's done with. I think the discussion got really side tracked here but good luck to you. I like a good debate and all but this got to be a little too involved for my sake.

 

[seventieslord]

Some series get played on the perimeter, and a few get played in the trenches. Don't feel bad about it Shawn, it's all part of the process. No one made it personal. We were all treated to some great discussion about these players so everyone wins.

 

[shawnmullin]

Oh I know it's not personal no worries.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Well it's done with. I think the discussion got really side tracked here but good luck to you. I like a good debate and all but this got to be a little too involved for my sake.

I don't think we got sidetracked, I'm just trying to give a more thorough evaluation of the players at hand and do their games and legacies justice (and refine what we look for in an ATD pick, like in the Colville/Heller back-and-forth). I'll argue for that, even if some of the side discussions don't have much impact on what way GMs will vote.

Regardless of the outcome, I had a good time digging up support (and digging in my heels) for my guys. And mixing it up with you and paps in general.

 

[seventieslord]

The Trail Smoke Eaters (4) vs. Killarney Country Bears Jamboree (5)

Game Results:

Trail Smoke Eaters: 2 - The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 3 OT
Trail Smoke Eaters: 4 - The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 1
The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 2 - Trail Smoke Eaters: 1 2OT
The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 0 - Trail Smoke Eaters: 1 OT
Trail Smoke Eaters: 1 - The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 3
The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 1 - Trail Smoke Eaters: 2 OT
Trail Smoke Eaters: 3 - The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree: 2 3OT

The Trail Smoke Eaters (4) defeats The Killarney Country Bears Jamboree (5) in 7 games.


Series Three Stars

1: Terry Sawchuk - Trail Smoke Eaters
2: Milt Schmidt - Killarney Country Bears Jamboree
3: Mike Bossy - Trail Smoke Eaters


Series Recap:

- One of the toughest series ever fought on the All-Time Draft battle ground. Five games went into overtime, while deciding games took 3 overtime periods to settle a winner.

- While the Trail Smoke Eaters was often beaten by a team that had a better offensive and defensive corps, the Trail could count one one of the hottest goaltender in the league in Terry Sawchuk. He was head and shoulders the most valuable player in this series. In game seven, Sawchuk made some tremendous saves to keep his team alive. In the second overtime periods, he stopped two breakaways in less than a minute; a beautiful kick save against Howie Morenz, and a breathtaking glove save on a shot of Punch Broadbent

- The duo of Serge Savard-Harry Cameron was phenomenal all series long. Surprisingly, Savard showed his offensive abilities quite a lot in this series, especially on the Powerplay, while Cameron showed he could play a sound defensive game.

- In one of the most ferocious fight in this first round of playoffs, René Robert and Harry Westwick went at it at the start of game 7. The two tenacious pugilist fought for almost two minutes, before the right hook of Robert put Westwick to the ground.

 

[shawnmullin]

I just want to say thanks to pappy and CW... as well as the other GMs who contributed to this being one of the most closely scrutinized and just plain close series we've had in this draft. I think it's unfortunate that CW's team is out in the first round because it's certainly a very well assembled squad that deserved a better fate. For a while there I really thought we were toast.

I'm glad people saw the value of Sawchuk it seemed to be the difference maker.

Good luck in the next draft CW, you'll have another great team I'm sure.