As of now. Who has the better hart record. Sid or ovi?

[JackSlater]

I mean, it's very obviously Crosby. The idea that an extra win supercedes a significantly better non-winning record and overall voting record is pretty stupid. Just as Jagr has a clearly better Hart record than Messier despite only one win to Mess' two. Now, how meaningful Crosby's lead is in the grand scheme of things is debatable, as some of Crosby's high finishes aren't as good as they seem, as Zuluss kind of breaks it down in his post.

Yeah I'm pretty surprised that this is close when it's so obviously Crosby. The incredibly lazy argument that three is more than two is basically answering a different, more mundane question (who won more Hart trophies?) as far as I can tell. Looking at it beyond the surface level doesn't really help Ovechkin either. Must be a lot of Cowley fans out there. All that said, Hart trophy voting should have no bearing at all on who anyone thinks is the better player. It's just a vote that some of the hockey media conduct, not some definitive proof of anything.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby lost the Hart to McDavid in 2017-18 and, yet, McDavid's season is probably better than any of the players who finished second to Ovechkin in his Hart-winning seasons (sans Crosby's half season in 12-13).

Peak Malkin in '08 and '09 is certainly comparable to 2018 McDavid.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin haven't been top 5 in hart voting since 2015. Since then Crosby has been 2,2,2,4 that says a lot

 

[ScaredStreit]

Sid was robbed of a Hart in 2013 that went to Ovechkin. Same amount of points in much fewer games.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby was a much better player than Kane that season and Ovechkin the season prior. It's not all about points and goals. Crosby's effect on GF% in '19 was dominant. It was one of the best seasons of his career.

The poster is also overlooking the ridiculous 13 Hart, that Ovi barely edged Crosby on when Ovi basically scored a ton of goals on a couple of weak teams and was very meh against others in a short unbalanced schedule season.

That one Hart advantage really goes to show how weak the 3-2 argument is.

 

[vippe]

Who has the better Stanley Cup record?

New Jersey Devils - 3 Cups, 2 losses
Philadelphia Flyers - 2 Cups, 6 losses

 

[wetcoast]

To the 3 > 2 crowd.

2012-13 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

Crosby misses a 1/4 of the season and finishes 3% behind in voting

Even then to guys saying that Ovi has the stronger First place wins the decider in 13 was a bit of a joke as Ovi beat up on a couple of teams and was less than meh against several others in a short unbalanced season.

 

[wetcoast]

Who has the better Stanley Cup record?

New Jersey Devils - 3 Cups, 2 losses
Philadelphia Flyers - 2 Cups, 6 losses

This is a false equivalence though. Counting SCs is an objective counting of stats.

Hart record and voting are subjective.

As for your assertion Philly has been the better overall playoff team which is more like the question being asked here.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

It's hilarious that Ovechkin is losing when he literally has more MVP's. Typical HFB

 

[JasonRoseEh]

For an example how hilariously bad NHL Award voting is; Ovechkin finishing 9th in Hart voting in 17-18 is an absolute travesty if you even remotely understand the Capitals that year. Dragged that carcass to a division win and then, the Cup.

 

[Zuluss]

Sid was robbed of a Hart in 2013 that went to Ovechkin. Same amount of points in much fewer games.

Ovechkin was robbed of the Hart in 2009-10, which was a better season than any season Crosby has had.
So it all evens out in the end, and the edge in Harts Ovechkin has corresponds to the fact that his peak was higher and longer.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Ovechkin was robbed of the Hart in 2009-10, which was a better season than any season Crosby has had.
So it all evens out in the end, and the edge in Harts Ovechkin has corresponds to the fact that his peak was higher and longer.

Crosby was better at every aspect of the game other than scoring goals (which Crosby is great at).

 

[Zuluss]

Crosby was better at every aspect of the game other than scoring goals (which Crosby is great at).

What is a full season by Crosby that would be comparable to 2009/10 by Ovechkin (or to 2007/08, or to 2008/09)?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

That's not what I am talking about. Let me use an example.

In 2018-19, Crosby got 43.2 "voting points" for finishing 2nd in Hart voting. Pretty much everyone would agree that there was no reason to put him ahead of McDavid that season based on how both looked on the ice and how both produced, but McDavid was snubbed in Hart voting because Oilers did not make playoffs. Kane, who was also well ahead of Crosby in scoring, was also snubbed for a similar reason. 2018-19 Crosby has the votes that should have been theirs, and that's a lot of "voting points".

Now take Ovechkin in the preceding year, 2017-18. Ovechkin got 12.5% "voting points". Was Ovechkin that much worse? No, 2018-19 Crosby and 2017-2018 Ovechkin were pretty close, one was better in collecting points, the other had way more goals, as usual. But their "voting points" are apart by a factor of 3.5

Toss those two seasons in recognition that they were actually very similar seasons, and the career gap in "voting points" closes by almost one-half.

Take another pair of seasons like Ovechkin's 2005-06 and Crosby's 2016-17. Both were great seasons, yet Ovechkin has 8.5 "voting points" for his 2005-06 season (because he was snubbed due to being on a really bad team) and Crosby has 66.1 "voting points". Again, a glaring difference due to skewness in "voting points", but very similar seasons.

Toss those two to recognize the similarity along with the 17/18 & 18/19 pair above - and the career gap in "voting points" is gone.



And that highlights another problem: find me a living soul who thinks Crosby-2017 was as good as of a player as Ovechkin-2010. "Voting points" are close alright, the substance is not.

To a smaller extent, that applies to Ovechkin-2008 vs. Crosby-2014 comparison. The gap in "voting points" is non-existent, because 100 is the most one can get. Yet pretty much any poll ranks any of the best 3 Ovechkin seasons ahead of any season by Crosby. How do we account for that?

You made a post less than a year ago arguing Ovechkin > Crosby on the basis of Hart trophy votes:

"Now, let's look at their combined Hart voting share (or, if you wish, Hart voting points normalized by the maximum number of points available)
Ovechkin 56.6%+14.1%=70.7%
Crosby 8.8%+53.3%=62.1%
Here we have OV leading Crosby by 13.8% despite collecting 11.2% less points."

Link - Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

When the Hart trophy voting favoured Ovechkin, you presented my data without adding any context, disclaimers, etc.

Now that Crosby has pretty clearly (after the 2021 season) surpassed Ovechkin by this metric, you're saying that we can't use it anymore, because it's missing all kinds of context that apparently wasn't relevant last fall. Funny how that works.

 

[Zuluss]

You made a post less than a year ago arguing Ovechkin > Crosby on the basis of Hart trophy votes:

"Now, let's look at their combined Hart voting share (or, if you wish, Hart voting points normalized by the maximum number of points available)
Ovechkin 56.6%+14.1%=70.7%
Crosby 8.8%+53.3%=62.1%
Here we have OV leading Crosby by 13.8% despite collecting 11.2% less points."

That's what I started in this thread with:

"Voting points" are useful for comparing similar placements (assuming no snubs happen, which is hardly ever true) - e.g., if you have two players with 2, 4, 5 and 2, 5, 7, you can attempt comparing that, i.e., whether the 2s were similarly strong.

As of now. Who has the better hart record. Sid or ovi?

Comparing 1 vs. 2, 2 or 6, 7, 9 vs. 3, 3 using "voting points" is not that useful.
In the post you quoted I was comparing 2, 6 vs 5, 2 finishes by Ovechkin and Crosby in 2014/15 and 2015/16.
For that limited purpose, adding up "voting points" works.
If there are any notable snubs in this case, it is the snub of Benn the Art Ross winner in 2014/15 and it is probably benefiting Crosby more than Ovechkin.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Crosby was better at every aspect of the game other than scoring goals (which Crosby is great at).

Absolutely laughable.

 

[SotasicA]

Obviously Crosby. Simply just better at hockey, and also universally considered to be the single best player of the generation. That's an impressive Hart voting resume, too.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Absolutely laughable.

What else was Ovechkin better at?

 

[wetcoast]

For an example how hilariously bad NHL Award voting is; Ovechkin finishing 9th in Hart voting in 17-18 is an absolute travesty if you even remotely understand the Capitals that year. Dragged that carcass to a division win and then, the Cup.

Seriously he had a really meh 51.3 CF %, perhaps due to his 25 takeaways to 71 giveaways and don’t BS us with the hitting narrative it was at an all time low that year.

2 team mates also had 70 points, good supporting cast…

What would have been your ballot that year…ie the 5 guys on everyone’s vote?

 

[Plural]

If Sid hadn't won a single Hart trophy but had similar edge in vote shares I'd be inclined to pick Ovechkin. 3 wins against 0 wins is a deciding factor. But Sid has two Harts on his own right. So I think this is quite clearly edge for Crosby.

While I do think actually winning the trophy carries maybe even more weight than two second place finishes, Crosby still has such an incredible voting record that it's hard to ignore it.

So, my vote is, Crosby with a clear and maybe not resounding but definitely loud edge.

 

[Plural]

What else was Ovechkin better at?

At his peak, I'd argue Ovechkin had better acceleration in skating, he was vastly more physical (not always a positive, but still a trait in hockey) and his possession game at his best was better.

That said, over the course of their careers it's pretty clear to me that Crosby is the superior player.

 

[Hockeyholic]

3>2

 

[tacogeoff]

3>2

exactly.

In 100 years from now when fans casually glance back at their legacy this is what they will see.

 

[dr robbie]

It's hilarious that Ovechkin is losing when he literally has more MVP's. Typical HFB

It's due to how the question was posed. "Who has the better Hart record?" It's made to be subjective on how you're taking the record part to mean. Only wins? Only top 2-3 votes? All votes? If it was who has the most wins, that's objective. If it was who has the most point shares, that's objective. But, when it's made open like this and refers to an overall "record", I would take that to mean all Hart votes total and compare them across the board, so I too would say Crosby due to his consistency over his career. But it's intentionally subjective to initiate debate.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Seriously he had a really meh 51.3 CF %, perhaps due to his 25 takeaways to 71 giveaways and don’t BS us with the hitting narrative it was at an all time low that year.

2 team mates also had 70 points, good supporting cast…

What would have been your ballot that year…ie the 5 guys on everyone’s vote?

Ya, you didn't watch and I won't waste my time explaining it to you. That team was mediocre, had goalie controversy and poor play all year long, down the stretch Ovechkin was literally winning games for them singlehandidly and they won the division because of it. Greg Wyshinski at the time went on the record right after the voting came out and called it a joke that he was 9th in voting.