As of now. Who has the better hart record. Sid or ovi?

Which?


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Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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That's not necessarily true. "Voting points" are useful for comparing similar placements (assuming no snubs happen, which is hardly ever true) - e.g., if you have two players with 2, 4, 5 and 2, 5, 7, you can attempt comparing that, i.e., whether the 2s were similarly strong.

Other than that, "voting points" are very skewed and one win or even a nomination can trump a whole career with a number of relatively high finishes. Yzerman is probably not a very good example due to his competition, he is just the first one to come to mind, but his "voting points" do not surpass Corey Perry's "voting points", for example. Same is true about Selanne.

I agree it's possible for one big year to skew the results. But that's not the case here. Both players have almost the identical vote share in their best season (2008 for Ovechkin, 2014 for Crosby). Both players got 98% of the maximum number of votes in their best season.

The same is true if you look at their best three seasons (2008 + 2009 + 2010 vs 2014 + 2007 + 2017). In fact, Ovechkin is slightly ahead 255-250 (so if we exclude their three best seasons, that actually helps Crosby).

If you look at their best five years (add in 2013 + 2015 vs 2013 + 2010), Ovechkin remains slightly ahead 373-364.

Crosby is ahead by 21% in his career not because the results are skewed by a few big seasons, but because he was more consistent from year to year.

For anyone arguing "3>2", would you also agree that Mark Messier has a better Hart trophy record than Jaromir Jagr, because 2>1 (even though Jagr earned almost twice as many votes over the span of their careers)?
 

Hockey Outsider

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Here's a graph, because sometimes things are easier to understand visually:

upload_2021-7-2_18-22-49.png


This shows the number of Hart trophy votes both players earned in their best season, 2nd best season etc. Each year is scaled so that a unanimous Hart trophy would be worth 100 points.

As mentioned above, it's virtually even through five years. Then Crosby pulls away from there. Ovechkin won more Hart trophies than Crosby (just like Messier won more than Jagr). But it's pretty clear that Crosby's overall voting record is better than Ovechkin's (just like Jagr's overall voting record is better than Messier).

(Note - I'm not displaying their 11th best years onwards because neither player earned anything substantial in those seasons. The best ten years account for 99.9% and 99.8% of the total votes earned over the course of their careers).

(Another edit - how many people arguing "3>2" would argue that Randy Carlyle, Doug Wilson and Harry Howell are better defensemen, or had more decorated careers, than Brad Park, Borje Salming, and Scott Stevens?)
 
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Zuluss

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I agree it's possible for one big year to skew the results. But that's not the case here. Both players have almost the identical vote share in their best season (2008 for Ovechkin, 2014 for Crosby). Both players got 98% of the maximum number of votes in their best season.

That's not what I am talking about. Let me use an example.

In 2018-19, Crosby got 43.2 "voting points" for finishing 2nd in Hart voting. Pretty much everyone would agree that there was no reason to put him ahead of McDavid that season based on how both looked on the ice and how both produced, but McDavid was snubbed in Hart voting because Oilers did not make playoffs. Kane, who was also well ahead of Crosby in scoring, was also snubbed for a similar reason. 2018-19 Crosby has the votes that should have been theirs, and that's a lot of "voting points".

Now take Ovechkin in the preceding year, 2017-18. Ovechkin got 12.5% "voting points". Was Ovechkin that much worse? No, 2018-19 Crosby and 2017-2018 Ovechkin were pretty close, one was better in collecting points, the other had way more goals, as usual. But their "voting points" are apart by a factor of 3.5

Toss those two seasons in recognition that they were actually very similar seasons, and the career gap in "voting points" closes by almost one-half.

Take another pair of seasons like Ovechkin's 2005-06 and Crosby's 2016-17. Both were great seasons, yet Ovechkin has 8.5 "voting points" for his 2005-06 season (because he was snubbed due to being on a really bad team) and Crosby has 66.1 "voting points". Again, a glaring difference due to skewness in "voting points", but very similar seasons.

Toss those two to recognize the similarity along with the 17/18 & 18/19 pair above - and the career gap in "voting points" is gone.

The same is true if you look at their best three seasons (2008 + 2009 + 2010 vs 2014 + 2007 + 2017). In fact, Ovechkin is slightly ahead 255-250 (so if we exclude their three best seasons, that actually helps Crosby).

And that highlights another problem: find me a living soul who thinks Crosby-2017 was as good as of a player as Ovechkin-2010. "Voting points" are close alright, the substance is not.

To a smaller extent, that applies to Ovechkin-2008 vs. Crosby-2014 comparison. The gap in "voting points" is non-existent, because 100 is the most one can get. Yet pretty much any poll ranks any of the best 3 Ovechkin seasons ahead of any season by Crosby. How do we account for that?
 

Regal

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That's not what I am talking about. Let me use an example.

In 2018-19, Crosby got 43.2 "voting points" for finishing 2nd. Pretty much everyone would agree that there was no reason to put him ahead of McDavid that season based on how they looked on the ice, but McDavid was snubbed because Oilers did not make playoffs. Kane, who was also well ahead of Crosby in scoring, was also snubbed. 2018-19 Crosby has the votes that should have been theirs, and that's a lot of "voting points".

Now take Ovechkin in the preceding year, 2017-18. Ovechkin got 12.5% "voting points". Was Ovechkin that much worse? No, 2018-19 Crosby and 2017-2018 Ovechkin were pretty close, one was better in collecting points, the other had way more goals, as usual. But their "voting points" are apart by a factor of 3.5

Toss those two seasons in recognition that they were actually very similar seasons, and the career gap in "voting points" closes by almost one-half.

Take another pair of seasons like Ovechkin's 2005-06 and Crosby's 2016-17. Both were great seasons, yet Ovechkin has 8.5 "voting points" for his 2005-06season (because he was snubbed due to being on a really bad team) and Crosby has 66.1 "voting points". Again, a glaring difference due to skewness in "voting points", but very similar seasons.

Toss those two to recognize the similarity along with the 17/18 & 18/19 pair above - and the career gap in "voting points" is gone.



And that highlights another problem: find me a living soul who thinks Crosby-2017 was as good as of a player as Ovechkin-2010. "Voting points" are close alright, the substance is not.

To a smaller extent, that applies to Ovechkin-2008 vs. Crosby-2014 comparison. The gap in "voting points" is non-existent, because 100 is the most one can get. Yet pretty much any poll ranks any of the best 3 Ovechkin seasons ahead of any season by Crosby. How do we account for that?

Crosby was a much better player than Kane that season and Ovechkin the season prior. It's not all about points and goals. Crosby's effect on GF% in '19 was dominant. It was one of the best seasons of his career.
 

Regal

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Lindsay voters disagreed about the first one, and I would disagree about the 2nd one.

Lindsay voters put Crosby top three this year, but somehow I suspect you wouldn't use that as a basis for your opinion on whether he was actually a top three player this season (and rightfully so). And that's fine, but I think it's because you massively overrate goals, giving Ovechkin extra credit as a goalscorer when he has to play off the puck to do so, which limits the rest of his impact on offense. Ovechkin actually had more secondary assists in '18, so Crosby had 15 more primary points, was more efficient, better defensively, and again, had a significantly greater effect on GF%, which is the main goal of any given player on the ice.
 
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Zuluss

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I think it's because you massively overrate goals, giving Ovechkin extra credit as a goalscorer when he has to play off the puck to do so, which limits the rest of his impact on offense.

It limits his point production, not his impact on offense.
Ovechkin drawing a defenseman or just threatening a shot from the left circle is enough to tilt the ice once his team gains the zone. That's not reflected in his points though - but is always recognized by award voters who routinely vote him over other players with more points.
And then we start the age-old Ovechkin-Crosby comparisons, and we are back to square one: "Crosby has more points, he is top10 in points and OV is not, Crosby's ppg is higher". Duh. Marchand has been outscoring Ovechkin in the past several seasons, it is not like it gave him a superior All-star voting record.
 

Incognito

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Technically Ovechkin, I guess. But that’s got more to do with the voters being incompetent than anything else. He and Crosby both deserve to have three Hart Trophies each right now.

Crosby: 2006-2007, 2012-2013, 2013-2014

Ovechkin: 2007-2008, 2008-2009, 2009-2010
 
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KoozNetsOff 92

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Here's a graph, because sometimes things are easier to understand visually:

View attachment 450966

This shows the number of Hart trophy votes both players earned in their best season, 2nd best season etc. Each year is scaled so that a unanimous Hart trophy would be worth 100 points.

As mentioned above, it's virtually even through five years. Then Crosby pulls away from there. Ovechkin won more Hart trophies than Crosby (just like Messier won more than Jagr). But it's pretty clear that Crosby's overall voting record is better than Ovechkin's (just like Jagr's overall voting record is better than Messier).

(Note - I'm not displaying their 11th best years onwards because neither player earned anything substantial in those seasons. The best ten years account for 99.9% and 99.8% of the total votes earned over the course of their careers).

(Another edit - how many people arguing "3>2" would argue that Randy Carlyle, Doug Wilson and Harry Howell are better defensemen, or had more decorated careers, than Brad Park, Borje Salming, and Scott Stevens?)

That's not what I am talking about. Let me use an example.

In 2018-19, Crosby got 43.2 "voting points" for finishing 2nd in Hart voting. Pretty much everyone would agree that there was no reason to put him ahead of McDavid that season based on how both looked on the ice and how both produced, but McDavid was snubbed in Hart voting because Oilers did not make playoffs. Kane, who was also well ahead of Crosby in scoring, was also snubbed for a similar reason. 2018-19 Crosby has the votes that should have been theirs, and that's a lot of "voting points".

Now take Ovechkin in the preceding year, 2017-18. Ovechkin got 12.5% "voting points". Was Ovechkin that much worse? No, 2018-19 Crosby and 2017-2018 Ovechkin were pretty close, one was better in collecting points, the other had way more goals, as usual. But their "voting points" are apart by a factor of 3.5

Toss those two seasons in recognition that they were actually very similar seasons, and the career gap in "voting points" closes by almost one-half.

Take another pair of seasons like Ovechkin's 2005-06 and Crosby's 2016-17. Both were great seasons, yet Ovechkin has 8.5 "voting points" for his 2005-06 season (because he was snubbed due to being on a really bad team) and Crosby has 66.1 "voting points". Again, a glaring difference due to skewness in "voting points", but very similar seasons.

Toss those two to recognize the similarity along with the 17/18 & 18/19 pair above - and the career gap in "voting points" is gone.



And that highlights another problem: find me a living soul who thinks Crosby-2017 was as good as of a player as Ovechkin-2010. "Voting points" are close alright, the substance is not.

To a smaller extent, that applies to Ovechkin-2008 vs. Crosby-2014 comparison. The gap in "voting points" is non-existent, because 100 is the most one can get. Yet pretty much any poll ranks any of the best 3 Ovechkin seasons ahead of any season by Crosby. How do we account for that?

Another thing about this "best, 2nd best, etc" season comparisons. What about the competition? In OV's 3 best seasons (08-10) his competition was peak Malkin and then Crosby himself in 2010. While in Crosby's 07 and 14, he was competing against who exactly? Luongo and Getzlaf? It's easy to get more votes competing against Getzlaf than Malkin. Swap their competition and OV would have an even bigger lead in their best years. And performance in the best years is all that should matter anyways. Who cares what happens in the 8th, 9th, 10th best seasons.
 

Nadal On Clay

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Crazy how context suddenly matters for Ovechkin fanboys when it comes to Hart Trophy voting, but doesn’t when comparing these players career as a whole (achievements, point production/totals, trophy counting etc)
 

Steven Toast

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I personally rank Awards records as I would Olympic medals. As in a country A with 3 golds, 3 silvers, 3 bronzes is ahead of country B with 1 gold, 5 silvers, 5 bronzes.
 

nowhereman

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Jan 24, 2010
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Some of the responses in this thread are hilarious.

"No one remembers who finished 2nd!!!"

Yeah, no one is going to remember Sidney Crosby. Meanwhile, Beliveau and Hull's Hart finishes are still being compared across eras, because hockey historians actually care about context and consistency. It's not as simple as "counting the 1s".
 
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KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
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Everyone knows Bolt won gold in the 100 and 200m in 2008, 2012 and 2016. Without looking it up, does anyone know who won silver in those races? No. Because no one cares.

Jordan vs LeBron. The fact that Jordan won more finals is valued more than LeBron making more finals.

In tennis, people care about who won the most majors, not who has the most runners up.

In F1, people care who won the most races, not who has the most runners up.

In football, people care how many times a player won the ballon d'or, not how many times a player was nominated.

Yet Crosby fans wanna sit here trying to pretend finishing 2nd more often is better than finishing 1st more often. Y'all must like losing.
 
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Nathaniel

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Oct 18, 2013
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Everyone knows Bolt won gold in the 100 and 200m in 2008, 2012 and 2016. Without looking it up, does anyone know who won silver in those races? No. Because no one cares.

Jordan vs LeBron. The fact that Jordan won more finals is valued more than LeBron making more finals.

In tennis, people care about who won the most majors, not who has the most runners up.

In F1, people care who won the most races, not who has the most runners up.

In football, people care how many times a player won the ballon d'or, not how many times a player was nominated.

Yet Crosby fans wanna sit here trying to pretend finishing 2nd more often is better than finishing 1st more often. Y'all must like losing.
We don't lose that's the Caps job
 

Thenameless

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Apr 29, 2014
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I'm going with Ovechkin here. Winning is everything. Or winning is the only thing.

Narratives about why a person didn't win something are just losers' excuses.
 

nowhereman

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To the 3 > 2 crowd.

2012-13 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

Crosby misses a 1/4 of the season and finishes 3% behind in voting
Shh, context doesn't matter. It's all about the '1s'; nobody cares about 2nd... especially when second place actually had a much more impressive season.

That said, in all fairness, Ovechkin probably wins the Hart in 2009, if not for his suspension (though Henry Sedin was a pretty damn good story). But that's why context matters.

Another thing about this "best, 2nd best, etc" season comparisons. What about the competition? In OV's 3 best seasons (08-10) his competition was peak Malkin and then Crosby himself in 2010. While in Crosby's 07 and 14, he was competing against who exactly? Luongo and Getzlaf? It's easy to get more votes competing against Getzlaf than Malkin. Swap their competition and OV would have an even bigger lead in their best years. And performance in the best years is all that should matter anyways. Who cares what happens in the 8th, 9th, 10th best seasons.
Crosby lost the Hart to McDavid in 2017-18 and, yet, McDavid's season is probably better than any of the players who finished second to Ovechkin in his Hart-winning seasons (sans Crosby's half season in 12-13).

There's more context to unpack than just looking at the second place finish in the Hart-winning seasons.
 
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