there's an awful lot to dive in to with your post...I didn't really want to get in to this ….but there are things in here you've said that I don't agree with
With that "older, bigger, stronger, wiser" comment, I was referring to the players who are the exact same players who were in junior and are now in USport or European pro leagues or whatever we're referring to. As I general rule I'd say their hockey IQ improves over time.
As a general rule, hockey IQ doesn't improve over time beyond a certain age....any kid that is exposed to the best development in this country doesn't see their IQ continue to climb as they age beyond their teenager years...as they age and with longer term exposure to similar systems, they might understand a system better, but no their IQ doesn't continually improve....some people have elite hockey sense, it's just something you are born with and develop and some don't have that elite sense....you can coach them to a reasonable level but you cannot develop someone without natural IQ to the point of it being an asset...this is why we have the phrase in sports "all the tools, no tool box"
I think
@BondraTime addressed your thoughts on the russian junior league
I don't want to do too much research for you. I had to figure this stuff out for myself. But just go through any of the next tier of pro leagues - Slovakia, ECHL, EBEL, Allsvenskan, and you'll find players who were formerly first line players in major junior and now after a few more years of development are still not at the same level as pros.
this is the point i initially made....it doesn't matter how much additional dev time some guys have....they will never develop in to pro level hockey players if we define pro as being NHL. One reason for that is they don't have the IQ...you're contradicting yourself here where you are saying the IQ improves over time and then you're wondering why after a few more years of development they are not at the same level as pros
there's a reason you'll find players in these leagues that were frontline players in junior but who somehow haven't made pro....most of them were front line players playing junior with someone on their line that was going further in hockey than they were and playing with that guy made their stats look awesome....and I'll roll some of your points up in to a tidy example for you....Allsvenskan and Jonathan Dahlen....he put up awesome numbers as an 18 year old....playing with some guy named Pettersson .... Pettersson is an elite quality pro hockey player and at 17 years old was making Dahlen post big numbers....fast forward a few years, Pettersson is an NHL star and Dahlen is .... I don't what he is ....the point that I am making is without the context you cannot go back thru a hockey DB and look at stats....you'll find tons and tons of guys that put up good numbers in junior but never went anywhere and you'll find the guy that did go somewhere that inflated the stats of those around him in junior
If you go down another tier to Norway, Denmark, France, then you start to see import players from CHL put up similar numbers to what they did in junior, but keep in mind that is generally after at least a couple years of development in ECHL and/or AHL. Players develop and get better over time.
go look at some of the stats for these leagues ...ok... using the list that i initially posted, i'll bypass the OHL, the NCAA and the AHL as the 10th, 9th, and 8th league and look at the german league which was 7th...the leading scorer in that league this year was Wayne Simpson....30 years old, never drafted, 5 foot 10...the top goal scorer in that league is Trevor Parkes....he bounced around minor pro in North America and off he went to Europe to make some money, knowing he wasn't going to make the NHL
look at the swiss league...in 19-20 the top scorer on the top team was Mark Arcobello at 31....he had some coffee in the NHL but he's undersized and 31....he's the top player on a top team.....and other top players are into their 30s ...are they currently better players than the top kids playing on junior teams? look at the 67s....are these top Bern players currently better players than Rossi or Quinn? or Bahl? these Bern players are not really bigger than the junior kids (or large enough that size is the determining factor in a head to head game), in fact they're size is possibly in part what limited their opportunity to play pro hockey...so suppose we line up Bern to play against the 67s....i'm thinking the 67s have the two best forwards in that game and the best D. Do you think that these players are better than top junior players? I don't.
The bit about any given OHL rosters having 5 players who are more talented than anyone on Euro pro leagues besides KHL, SHL and Liiga is simply and irresponsibly false. Try watching some of these leagues. Or at least look into the stats. Players develop and get better over time. How is it that the Canadian World Junior team often loses to USports all-stars in the exhibition games they play each year? How on earth would that make sense if skill simply wins out?
.
a few years back in the heat of the Dahlen debates I was talking up canadian university hockey....the issue here isn't the junior players....it's a misunderstanding of just how good canadian university hockey is....it's mostly guys that aged out of playing junior and that recognized they weren't going to be NHL players and are taking advantage of their CHL contracts and getting an education....they are quality hockey players that are a tier below the best junior players....and a lot of them are better players than what you see in the minor pro leagues in europe
we can go on and on about this.....i stated a couple of posts ago that i am not an expert in ranking hockey leagues and i don't care to research stats to develop a ranking of it....this discussion started with a comment that the KHL was not as good as the AHL and i simply posted a link about hockey league rankings
this is what i originally said
Why? How i interpret that is it's the best junior league in the world
Once you get beyond the top leagues in each country in Europe plus the two pro leagues here, it gets thin fast.
There would he more high end talent on the junior teams, the issue is whether the kids could play against the men
the reality is that there is more high end talent on junior teams than there is on Euro rosters once you get beyond the top euro leagues...the KHL, the SHL and the Finn league
from the 2019 draft....there are 5 kids that played in the NHL this year, 3 of them as regulars
from the 2018 draft .....there are 19 kids that played in the NHL this year, 3 of them as regulars
from the 2017 draft .... there are 51 kids that have played in the NHL this year
these kids are coming from a variety of dev backgrounds but the majority of them are coming out of the CHL....take away the KHL, SHL and the finn league....how many players from those leagues have played in the best league in the world in the past 3 years? you'll find some guys on the downside of their careers that had a coffee....what you won't find are 75 guys that have a future in the best league in the world
The bit about any given OHL rosters having 5 players who are more talented than anyone on Eruo pro leagues besides KHL, SHL and Liiga is simply and irresponsibly false. Try watching some of these leagues.
i'm going to leave you with this ....i said there would be more high end talent on junior teams....i quoted myself right above here.....I live in Ottawa so I'll cherry pick the 67s....i'll take away the KHL, SHL and the finn league....and i'll give you all the other leagues and rosters combined....and i'm thinking that you cannot find 3 players with more talent than Rossi, Quinn and Bahl
