Player Discussion Artyom Zub (D) [Page 4 Senators sign from KHL]
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alfstheman
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- Jul 2, 2009
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Isnt every league pretty bad compared to the NHL?
Where does everyone rank the KHL relative to other leagues? I thought it was similar to the swedish league or even better?
Do Make Say Think
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My limited viewings of KHL games has led me to consider the level of play quite a bit worse than the AHL. I can't speak with much authority on the SEL but I'd be surprised if the KHL was "better".
KHL goalies are especially bad.
FormentonTheFuture
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- Sep 29, 2017
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the KHL is regarded as the second best league in the world
Here's a current ranking of world wide leagues
https://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-best-ice-hockey-leagues/
Sensung
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SpezDispenser
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- Aug 15, 2007
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Sounds like a really great addition if he signs. Mobile and nasty with a decent shot? Great placeholder until Thomson and JBD are ready
Sweatred
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Dorion pretty much confirmed Boro would be staying. There is room for him on a decent deal.
IamJust0ne
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Pierre Mcguire hinted one is gone already, regardless what happens with Zub
BondraTime
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Yeah KHL is definitely the 2nd best league in the world.
NyQuil
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EXTRAS
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- Jul 31, 2012
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didnt francouz, Samsonov, shestyorkin, and soon sorokin and askorov come from the KHL? Can't be that bad!
MatchesMalone
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LOL at OHL as the tenth best league in the world. Time to stop reading right there.
MatchesMalone
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The gap between the nhl and all other leagues is massive. I wasn't really trying to establish that it was close. I was responding to a poster saying it was lower than the AHL. the KHL is the best of the rest, but yes definitely the gap is large
Why? How i interpret that is it's the best junior league in the world
Once you get beyond the top leagues in each country in Europe plus the two pro leagues here, it gets thin fast.
There would he more high end talent on the junior teams, the issue is whether the kids could play against the men
Sens of Anarchy
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MatchesMalone
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No it doesn't. Not to that extreme. I understand the argument you're making - I've spent at least 5 years working on my own league rankings - USports is mostly former major junior players but without the elite talents who went pro. ECHL is mostly former NCAA players but again without the elite talents. It took me countless hours over many years pouring over EliteProspects to make sense of it all.
But once you realize three key factors, it starts to come together: 1. The most obvious thing is just the difference in physical development. Grown-ass adults compared to teenagers. 2. Those players who were in NCAA and are now in ECHL are 3 or 5 years further developed than the NCAA kids, not just physically, but in all facets of the game. 3. Although the elite players have moved on, there are still a bunch of former 30-40 goal-scorers, 80-90 point CHL scorers in USports and former point per game NCAA players in ECHL. While USports to major junior is close, the elite players aren't enough to make difference when the overall bulk of the player are the same player but older, wiser, bigger, stronger and better.
I know we were talking about major junior vs. European pro, but I used those two examples because they were ones that took me a lot of time and research to fully get my head around.
If you'd like to continue this debate I can go search some examples more direct to what we're talking about, but for now here is my top ten list, including numerical ratings. The bulk of this research came in 2016-2017, and since then I've just been tweaking it, although I made a fairly deep dive into some lower European leagues last summer. The numerical ratings were just my very rough estimate and shouldn't be taken too seriously. I am reasonably confident in the order, but when the ratings are very close it gives you an idea of where I'm less sure. Ratings out of 20.
20 - NHL
18.5 - KHL
18 - SHL
17.5 - AHL
17.25 - NLA
17 - Liiga
16.5 - Czech Extraliga
16 - DEL, VHL
15.75 - Slovak Extraliga
...
15 - NCAA
...
14.25 - MHL (the best junior league in the world)
14 - OHL, WHL
13.75 - QMJHL
13.5 - USHL, SuperElit
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What is the Mhl that you are referring to as the best junior league in the world?
I don't think that there is any set formula that assesses how big a difference older, wiser, bigger, stronger makes.
I would definitely question wiser. There are a lot of guys playing junior that simply flat out have more hockey iq than guys playing in lower tier pro leagues and being more developed will not change that.
I openly questioned how much the kids versus men difference would be. If we're talking 17 year olds. Yes sure, there is a difference. But that difference drops with 18 and again with 19 year olds.
And we're not talking nhl men here either. When you get into the 2nd tier euro pro hockey players, they are not the same conditioned athletes that you see in the nhl. Kids need to develop to play in the nhl. How many higher end major junior players could go play euro pro immediately? Or lower tier euro pro? Matthews was dominant in the swiss league at 17
I'm certainly no expert in ranking hockey leagues but I'm not going to discount talent's ability to win. And most ohl rosters have 5 or so guys that are simply more talented than anyone you'd see in a euro league outside the khl, shl and the Finnish league. And for the odd guy playing in a league lower than that that has come down in tiers, chances are that guy is already mid 30s and not as good as his 19 year old self was
BondraTime
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MatchesMalone
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With that "older, bigger, stronger, wiser" comment, I was referring to the players who are the exact same players who were in junior and are now in USport or European pro leagues or whatever we're referring to. As I general rule I'd say their hockey IQ improves over time.
MHL is Russia's top junior league. If all three CHL leagues were to pool their talent into one 33 team league, then surely it would be superior to the 33 team MHL. But as it stands, with the talent spread across 60 teams over 3 leagues, the MHL is certainly better than any of the CHL leagues individually.
OK, I'll find you some examples:
Brendan Ranford is 27, no major injuries, no reason he should be past his prime. Kid had seasons of 86, 92, 87 points in WHL. After years of development, including some AHL, he had 23 in 29 in Allsvenskan this year.
Lane Scheidl had 41 goals and 80 points his last year in WHL. He never sniffed a point per game over four ECHL seasons, and now in Slovakia he's still not close.
Daniel Catenacci had seasons of 71, 72 and 79 points in the OHL. After a solid AHL career as a bottom six forward, he is now 27 and not even close to a p/g player in the EBEL (Austria).
I don't want to do too much research for you. I had to figure this stuff out for myself. But just go through any of the next tier of pro leagues - Slovakia, ECHL, EBEL, Allsvenskan, and you'll find players who were formerly first line players in major junior and now after a few more years of development are still not at the same level as pros.
If you go down another tier to Norway, Denmark, France, then you start to see import players from CHL put up similar numbers to what they did in junior, but keep in mind that is generally after at least a couple years of development in ECHL and/or AHL. Players develop and get better over time.
You can't use Matthews as an exception, lol. And he was 18. He would have absolutely embarrassed major juniors. How many players like that are in the CHL in a given year? Almost none. Even at 18, he likely would have been the best player in the CHL that year, as his World Juniors hints at.
The bit about any given OHL rosters having 5 players who are more talented than anyone on Eruo pro leagues besides KHL, SHL and Liiga is simply and irresponsibly false. Try watching some of these leagues. Or at least look into the stats. Players develop and get better over time. How is it that the Canadian World Junior team often loses to USports all-stars in the exhibition games they play each year? How on earth would that make sense if skill simply wins out?
You need to understand, there are a lot of other countries that are really good at hockey, not just Canada. To suggest that our 18 and 19 year olds are on average better than the best pros from Germany, Austria, Slovakia is naïve and disrespectful to those country's hockey programs. Maybe there are five players in the entire OHL who are better than any player in the DEL... Maybe. Remember, a lot of the players in a league like the DEL are former fringe NHLer, which means they were stars in whatever junior leagues they played first.
Take, for instance, Tim Stützle. Most would agree he is better than Rossi, Perfetti, who are clearly among the very best players in the OHL. Stützle ranked 24th in DEL in p/g this year.
There might be a reasonable argument to be made for OHL as a top 20 league in the world, but I have it ranked outside the top 25.
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MatchesMalone
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BondraTime
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Successful NHL players (NHL players in general) from the leagues, and drafted players, and they generally send their best VHL players and some MHL guys over for the Russia/CHL challenge (some KHL guys), and don't do very well, even having the Russians from the CHL leagues, and the CHL not using any Euro or American players, of which there are tons of 1st round guys every year.
I mean, there were 4 CHLers on the Russian World Junior team (who are faithful to those who stay in Russia to a fault) and there were no guys from the MHL on it.
Canada's World Junior team (U-20) is 90% from their 3 junior leagues every year.
Russia's World Junior team is 95+% from the KHL/VHL/CHL. Their Junior league doesn't get looked at from the U-20.
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