Article: Rangers and Alexander Ovechkin

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Big McLargehuge

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Spooner said:
Bettis took a 4 mil paycut to stay with his old team and give them a better chance of signing FA's and winning a Super Bowl.

Jagr demanded a trade.

OMG THEIR SOOO COMPARIBLE!!!11

Bettis is a class act, that's why he's so loved in this city and organization.

Jagr...well, you all know my stance.

Both are going into the Hall-of-Fame, both with Pittsburgh, but Bettis' will be a much bigger event in Pittsburgh if you know what I mean.
 

Ric Flair

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Spooner said:
Bettis took a 4 mil paycut to stay with his old team and give them a better chance of signing FA's and winning a Super Bowl.

Jagr demanded a trade.

OMG THEIR SOOO COMPARIBLE!!!11


Signing fa's and winning a super bowl?? Duce Staley?? If you think that team is remotley close to being a contender you are sorely mistaken. Yes, Jagr demanded a trade and I don't blame him. Pigsburgh sucks, and I can't wait to follow suit and get the hell out. Coffey demanded a trade too when he was here, so what? They were 2 great players here and that's what should matter.
 

Spooner

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I think this could be the first time a teams fan ask not to let someone in the HOF under their name. Seriously, let him go in as a Cap.

(Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but he's not exactly the most loved here.)
 

Ric Flair

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Handsome B. Wonderful said:
Bettis is a class act, that's why he's so loved in this city and organization.

Jagr...well, you all know my stance.

Both are going into the Hall-of-Fame, both with Pittsburgh, but Bettis' will be a much bigger event in Pittsburgh if you know what I mean.

So it's more important to have players that are class acts than to have players with talent?
 

Spooner

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George Harrison said:
Signing fa's and winning a super bowl?? Duce Staley?? If you think that team is remotley close to being a contender you are sorely mistaken. Yes, Jagr demanded a trade and I don't blame him. Pigsburgh sucks, and I can't wait to follow suit and get the hell out. Coffey demanded a trade too when he was here, so what? They were 2 great players here and that's what should matter.


You're judging the managements ability to get good FA's instead of Bettis taking a paycut to let them try. You can't blame Bettis is the management is making shaky decisions. My point remains valid that Bettis has, does, and will think of the team, regardless of what Stiller management does.
 

in the hall

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George Harrison said:
So it's more important to have players that are class acts than to have players with talent?
not to pour salt on the wound but kris beech has done wonders with his public relations ;)

im too easy a target for this so take it easy on me fellas :p
 

Spooner

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George Harrison said:
So it's more important to have players that are class acts than to have players with talent?


In a sense, yes. As Joe Paterno once said, "Victory without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste as good."

Some of us (me definitely) would rather not win a Stanley Cup with a group of hard working youngsters than go all the way with a group of *******s that the whole league grows to resent. Maybe not everyone shares my opinion, but to me that's how it feels.
 

Ric Flair

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Spooner said:
In a sense, yes. As Joe Paterno once said, "Victory without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste as good."

Some of us (me definitely) would rather not win a Stanley Cup with a group of hard working youngsters than go all the way with a group of *******s that the whole league grows to resent. Maybe not everyone shares my opinion, but to me that's how it feels.

Hockey is about winning the cup not being nice to the media.
 

Spooner

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George Harrison said:
Hockey is about winning the cup not being nice to the media.



*bzzzzzt* Wrong, but thanks for playing.

Hockey is about having fun watching your team, and I personally have more fun watching a group of hard working good guys than a bunch of showboating primadonnas who drag down everyone around them with their constant negativity.
 

Big McLargehuge

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Spooner said:
*bzzzzzt* Wrong, but thanks for playing.

Hockey is about having fun watching your team, and I personally have more fun watching a group of hard working good guys than a bunch of showboating primadonnas who drag down everyone around them with their constant negativity.

eh, I'd like to agree, but winning is winning.
 

Ric Flair

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Spooner said:
*bzzzzzt* Wrong, but thanks for playing.

Hockey is about having fun watching your team, and I personally have more fun watching a group of hard working good guys than a bunch of showboating primadonnas who drag down everyone around them with their constant negativity.


If that's true why is almost nobody going to Pirates games the past few seasons. A bunch of hard working youngsters, some nice guys on that team, not a speck of talent. They should sell out every home game. I'd rather root for guys who aren't asses but winning takes priority over that.
 

Spooner

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Eh, different people have different tastes... whatever.

Bragging about winning's just a little fun though when everyone in the league hates your team. Bragging about the Marlins must be all the sweeter because no one's gonna rain on your parade by saying something like "Buncha dickheads on that team, bought their championship." Like with maybe they would with the Yankees.

But then again, I've always been an unconventional sports fan... I actually enjoyed last year's Penn State season... bah.
 

Big McLargehuge

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Spooner said:
Bragging about winning's just a little fun though when everyone in the league hates your team. Bragging about the Marlins must be all the sweeter because no one's gonna rain on your parade by saying something like "Buncha dickheads on that team, bought their championship." Like with maybe they would with the Yankees.

Now that I can agree with.
 

Spooner

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To me, saying "I wanna win, I don't care who's on my team I don't care how they do it I jsut want to win" has always seemed a little shallow. Sure, winning's nice, but don't you value the charatcer of your players or coach AT ALL?!? Would you take a group of the best hockey playing serial killers/wife beaters/rental tape non-rewinders if it meant an automatic championship? I wouldn't. You have to have some honor in winning.
 

Ric Flair

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Spooner said:
To me, saying "I wanna win, I don't care who's on my team I don't care how they do it I jsut want to win" has always seemed a little shallow. Sure, winning's nice, but don't you value the charatcer of your players or coach AT ALL?!? Would you take a group of the best hockey playing serial killers/wife beaters/rental tape non-rewinders if it meant an automatic championship? I wouldn't. You have to have some honor in winning.

Of course I'd like to root for "class acts" more than all the serial killer hockey players. However, having guys like Jags or Bonds on a team makes that team much more exciting to watch. I dont' deal with any athletes on a personal level and I'm sure that there are more asses out there than Jagr, prolly many that have played in the burgh and who the fans have loved. I don't care what a guy like Jagr says in the paper, he gave his all on the ice every time I saw him play. I'd say that wanting to leave Pittsburgh isn't quite as bad as smoking crack with prostitutes but Stevens is always well received here. Like I said, people that I actually deal with are the people whose character I care about. People I watch on tv or in movies I couldn't care less.
 

clefty

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in the hall said:
as i asked to appease myself please show me something, anything that would indicate that.. aside from his washington days and his ending years in pittsburgh i do not recall any time where jagr was even remotely close to as bad as youre making it seem and yes your 11 years as a home town fan does have good insight but my 18 years as a fan of hockey has read numerous stories about lindros, fleury, even the great lemieux, and such as being giant egos and cancers yet i dont recall any of jagr.. yes you would have better insight then i would but thats not to say i wouldnt have any at all.. if this were in fact true i am sure i would have heard something about it before back in the days when pitt was the story of the nhl


there isnt a chance you would a tad bitter now would there....
Sources?

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/columnists/20030610cook0610p1.asp

Maybe Jagr wasn't a full-blown cancer with the Penguins, but few, if any, of his teammates were sorry to see him go. His frequent mood swings -- always annoying -- eventually became intolerable. The all-time topper, of course, was his "I feel like I'm dying alive" speech early in his final season here. If reports out of Washington are true, Jagr is no more stable now. He's 31, but he still hasn't grown up.

http://www.post-gazette.com/penguins/20011003hknjagr1003p6.asp

By his three demands to be traded. By his inability to lead by the standards of a team captain. By his refusal to follow a line change ordered by Coach Ivan Hlinka.

All of that left many of his teammates sour, and some of them now will state in no uncertain terms that the Penguins' locker room will be a significantly less stressful place to be this season.

"Anybody who's around here can tell it's a little brighter," defenseman Andrew Ference said. "I mean, he obviously was having a tough time, from stuff that was in the papers and things he said. It was never really internal conflicts, stuff with other players, but mostly stuff going on around him. It always seemed to be hanging around. That just wasn't the most positive thing, even into the playoffs."

"For me, it really isn't that big a deal, how much we'll miss him off the ice," left winger Kevin Stevens said. "On the ice, obviously, we're going to miss the kid because he's such a talent. He's a different type of kid, but he's got a big heart and he's a good kid. I've always gotten along with him and, I think, everybody's always gotten along with him. But he kind of goes to his own drum. When he wants to."

But it seems safe to suggest the Penguins aren't going to expend much energy this season worrying about how Jagr does or how much better or worse they might be without him.

And some do little to mask their relief he is playing elsewhere.

"What he said didn't affect us that much on the ice, but having it in the locker room was almost like a cloud," Ference said. "You look around here now, and you don't have the negative aspects of somebody on your team demanding a trade or just knowing that he doesn't want to be there. It hangs over the whole team. I can't look at that and say it brought anything positive to the team. It didn't help us at all."

Look around and you'll find much more from the Post-Gazette. The fact that his former teammates spoke very candidly on the situation speaks volumes to me.
 

clefty

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One more:

http://www.post-gazette.com/penguins/20010711whyradenetpens2p2.asp

During the past few years, Jagr was branded by charges, most with some degree of validity, that he had qualities and habits that would be disturbing in any player, let alone a designated team leader.

He complained publicly about coaches and their strategies -- to hear him talk now of his deep respect for Kevin Constantine is downright comical -- and felt no particular obligation to abide by guidelines set for the entire team.

Members of the front office have spoken of Jagr ignoring obligations for things like autograph-signing sessions, and it wasn't unusual for him to be fashionably late for team meetings and the like. Fittingly, he was tardy for the Penguins' season-ending session after New Jersey beat them in the Eastern Conference final.
 

in the hall

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i appreciate the effort and while it did have me second guessing myself i looked at the dates..
June 10, 2003
July 11, 2001
October 03, 2001

not one article is before his trade out of pittsburgh...
 

clefty

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Oh Christ, I'm not going to sift through 4 more years of articles. Getting back to 2001 took long enough. If you want the sources so bad, that task can be up to you.

And besides, one of those sources talks about his complaining on Kevin Constantine's coaching - back in 1999.
 

clefty

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Also, on the comments made by his teammates, did you expect them to make those comments with Jagr still a Penguin and sitting in the stall beside them in the locker room?

Of course they wouldn't.

ADD: I just remembered these columns for a Czech magazine written by Jaromir himself from a few years ago. Here's a little snippet

http://letsgopens.com/tomas_translations.php?id=12

After the loss in New Jersey we flew home, went for a beer with the guys, and had the last team meeting the next day. They don't count on me anymore. Sure I came late. But only by five minutes. The guys said that exactly at twelve, GM Craig Patrick started the meeting, and when some players said that he should wait for the captain, Craig just brushed it aside.
 
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Shadowtron

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Foppa_Rules said:
Jagr and Lindros are prima donnas. That's known fact. Jagr is a loser. He has so much talent, if only he'd use it. He use to be one of the best. Then he cut his hair and lost himself. He doesn't know who he is anymore. He is lazy. If Ovechkin gets in with that crowd.....
Everybody knows the Rangers are lazy. They have the highest payroll in the League and many big names but they just can't buy a win. Because they don't work hard. "Hard work can beat talent when talent doesn't work hard."


The problem with the Rangers was they had too many Jagrs. They had half a team filled with players that typically only take up a slot or two an any other team. And all for the reasons you specified. Hopefully with this recent purge they Rangers can't put together meaningful.


And I highly doubt Ovechkin will wind up with the Rangers. I don't see them putting together a package of enough quality to force someone to cough up the No. 1 overall. I think they may move up a slot or two, but I think it's more likely they'll pick around the 3rd or 5th spot after having traded up to get there.
 
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