Artemi Panarin vs Auston Matthews

Who's better

  • Artemi Panarin

  • Auston Matthews


Results are only viewable after voting.

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
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Vancouver, BC
I do not cherry pick stats that support the Leaf player, and once again, those stats were not even part of the discussion. I use the same stats all the time, in the proper form that represents the best measure of offensive ability, and a select few Leaf players that are discussed a lot look very good in them because they are amazing players.

No. I do tend to post in threads related to Leaf players the most, as (almost) everybody does with their team, but I have used these same stats for other players. Leaf players tend to have the better stats in these comparisons, because the players they are compared against are usually inferior players, as a result of Matthews/Marner/Nylander being considerably underrated by much of this board throughout their ELCs. Panarin is at least closer in ability than most comparisons have been.
Good for you!
Nothing wrong with overrating your favourite teams players. A lot of young fans get excited. Just realize that there are lots of great players on other teams and try to look at other players on other teams more objectively. The Leafs have some good players for sure but so do a lot of teams and even some teams that are quite a bit better than the Leafs.
Have a good one!
 
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Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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Nothing wrong with overrating your favourite teams players. Just realize that there are lots of great players on other teams and try to look at other players on other teams more objectively.
I have not overrated any players on the Leafs. I do realize the quality of players on other teams, and I do evaluate them objectively. That is why I evaluate their production in the fairest way; considering context, including the most important context, ice time. I have given credit to Panarin for his ES production, and I give credit to many players around the league for the things they do well. Unfortunately, many find difficulty giving deserved credit to Leaf players.
 

Hierso

Time to Rock
Oct 2, 2018
1,259
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I really don't like these types of polls because it has two major issues for me.
#1 You have a player in his prime against a younger player that will improve (probably, you never know)
#Winger vs Center. This is honestly only an issue when you compare Prime vs Prime but it's still a cheap way of saying "Look at my Franchise Center, He is better than your Winger!)

I know that you judge the players here and now (The reason i voted for Panarin). But put Panarin against a Center in his prime or even better another winger in his prime?
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
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Vancouver, BC
I have not overrated any players on the Leafs. I do realize the quality of players on other teams, and I do evaluate them objectively. That is why I evaluate their production in the fairest way; considering context, including the most important context, ice time. I have given credit to Panarin for his ES production, and I give credit to many players around the league for the things they do well. Unfortunately, many find difficulty giving deserved credit to Leaf players.
If you rate non Leaf players fairly then I’m sure you can point me to a number of polls where you posted stats that showed the other player was better. I’m still waiting.
It’s not a good enough answer to whine that everyone always underrates the Leafs when you yourself are guilty of the exact opposite.
Physician heal thyself.
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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If you rate non Leaf players fairly then I’m sure you can point me to a number of polls where you posted stats that showed the other player was better. I’m still waiting.
I honestly can't remember the last poll where a Leaf player was compared to a player that was statistically better overall. That tends to happen when a player has been criminally underrated for much of their career. Also, I don't really see as much need to post these stats in comparisons where raw point totals and these more accurate measures lead to the same results (especially since it usually leads to hostile reactions and false accusations like you are right now), but yes, I give credit when credit is due, including in this very thread.
It’s not a good enough answer to whine that everyone always underrates the Leafs when you yourself are guilty of the exact opposite.
I didn't whine that everyone always underrates the Leafs, and I don't overrate Leaf players.
 

Tad Mikowsky

Only Droods
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2008
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Edmonton
I honestly can't remember the last poll where a Leaf player was compared to a player that was statistically better overall. That tends to happen when a player has been criminally underrated for much of their career. Also, I don't really see as much need to post these stats in comparisons where raw point totals and these more accurate measures lead to the same results (especially since it usually leads to hostile reactions and false accusations like you are right now), but yes, I give credit when credit is due, including in this very thread.

I didn't whine that everyone always underrates the Leafs, and I don't overrate Leaf players.

This is incorrect.
 

WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
21,936
Vancouver, BC
I honestly can't remember the last poll where a Leaf player was compared to a player that was statistically better overall. That tends to happen when a player has been criminally underrated for much of their career. Also, I don't really see as much need to post these stats in comparisons where raw point totals and these more accurate measures lead to the same results (especially since it usually leads to hostile reactions and false accusations like you are right now), but yes, I give credit when credit is due, including in this very thread.

I didn't whine that everyone always underrates the Leafs, and I don't overrate Leaf players.

I’m sure you can’t. And therein lies the problem when you cherry pick stats to make your own player look better! That’s exactly what I’m talking about. And why you consistently overrate your own players relative to other players. It’s a blind spot.
The Leafs are a good but not elite team with some good young players but have yet to show that they can take that next step to join the elite teams. Or for that matter to even get out of the first round.
 
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Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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I’m sure you can’t. And therein lies the problem when you cherry pick stats to make your own player look better!
For the last time, I do not cherry pick stats to make my players look better. Stop making false, unsubstantiated accusations and misrepresenting what I do. It is not my fault that others struggle with properly finding comparisons for Matthews and Marner, and it is not my responsibility to use inaccurate methods to appease individuals who cannot handle a Leaf being the best at something.

I have given Panarin plenty of credit for the things he has excelled at. He is an excellent ES player (arguably the best this season), and he has done it under a fairly non-ideal situation. His current pace is nowhere close to sustainable, as he has a severely inflated OISH%, but even as that evens out, he will be among the best ES producers.

That said, I would take Matthews, now and into the future. Not because he is a Leaf, but because of the things that I have consistently valued for all players. Matthews sustainably produces similar to Panarin at ES; among the best in the league. Unlike Panarin however, he also excels on the PP. In addition, he has done this consistently for multiple years; his entire career minus his rookie season (which was still incredible), and through difficult situations that are much less advantageous than his peers. He excels in primary points, and is the gold standard in goal scoring. He is responsible in his own end, and tilts the ice considerably. And unlike Panarin, he is not even in his prime yet, and he has given every indication that there is yet another level that he can rise to.

Production at ES. Production on the PP. Primary production. Sustainability. Consistency. Reliability. Context. These things matter. Unlike for many, my vote has nothing to do with what jersey they wear.
 

keglu

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
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I honestly can't remember the last poll where a Leaf player was compared to a player that was statistically better overall. That tends to happen when a player has been criminally underrated for much of their career. Also, I don't really see as much need to post these stats in comparisons where raw point totals and these more accurate measures lead to the same results (especially since it usually leads to hostile reactions and false accusations like you are right now), but yes, I give credit when credit is due, including in this very thread.

I didn't whine that everyone always underrates the Leafs, and I don't overrate Leaf players.

I mean you once said Matthews ELC performance was on Ovechkin/Malkin's level.
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
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I mean you once said Matthews ELC performance was on Ovechkin/Malkin's level.
Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but I have said their pre-signing (not ELC) production/goal-scoring was on a comparable level, which is true. I don't really know how they compare now. I do know that perception of those players in their early years was heavily skewed by the post-lockout environment where top players were getting around 2-3 times the PP TOI that players like Matthews were. Please get back to the thread topic.
 

keglu

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
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651
Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but I have said their pre-signing (not ELC) production/goal-scoring was on a comparable level, which is true. I don't really know how they compare now. I do know that perception of those players in their early years was heavily skewed by the post-lockout environment where top players were getting around 2-3 times the PP TOI that players like Matthews were. Please get back to the thread topic.


No, I was talking about generational players thread, not contract discussion threads.
 

pcruz

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
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Vaughan
No, I was talking about generational players thread, not contract discussion threads.

It is a fact that the first couple of seasons post lock-out had extremely inflated power play numbers. The Leafs have been, and continue to be among the League’s least favoured team for power plays.

If someone scores 40 goals in a year when their team averages ~2 power plays per game, then that same player might score 50 if the team averaged ~6 power plays per game.

Don’t know about comparing Matthews to Ovechkin, but Malkin is a good comparison. For goals, of course.
 

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