Art Ross winners - largest margins of victory

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by TheDevilMadeMe, Nov 13, 2013.

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  1. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    First a technical note: The Art Ross was first awarded for the 1947-48 season, but I am including the scoring leaders for all NHL seasons.

    Disclaimer: Competition isn't taken into account. Obviously, Wayne Gretzky at #2 in 1989 is a lot tougher than Teemu Selanne at #2 in 1999.

    Everyone who won an NHL scoring title by more than 15% is included in the following table:


    Notes:
    • 8 of Gretzky's 10 Art Rosses were by more than 15%
    • 4 of Howe's 6 Art Rosses were by more than 15%
    • 3 of Esposito's 5 Art Rosses were by more than 15%
    • One-timers before World War 2: Cowley, Morenz, Conacher, Schmidt, Broadbent, Lalonde, Weiland
    • One-timers after World War 2: Hull, Mikita, Orr, Jagr, Lemieux , Crosby, Kane
    • It was obviously easier to lead the league by a higher percentage before WW2, when the seasons were shorter and seasonal totals were lower.
    • Lemieux won 6 Art Rosses, but only 1 by a 15%+ margin. Two reasons: Gretzky & injuries.
    • Teammates who led the league in scoring by wide margins in back-to-back years: Schmidt/Cowley, Hull/Mikita, Orr/Esposito
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  2. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    As for the margins of victory by the "big 4," here is a repost of FissionFire's work during the 2008 Top 100 project. I corrected an error with his calculation of Howe's 1952-53 numbers. Otherwise, this is basically a cut and paste job.

    Gordie Howe
    1950-51: 23.26% scoring margin (86 to 66) Age: 22
    1951-52: 19.75% scoring margin (86 to 69) Age: 23
    1952-53: 25.26% scoring margin (95 to 71) Age: 24
    1953-54: 17.28% scoring margin (81 to 67) Age: 25
    1956-57: 4.49% scoring margin (89 to 85) Age: 28
    1962-63: 5.81% scoring margin (86 to 81) Age: 34

    Wayne Gretzky
    1980-81: 17.68% scoring margin (164 to 135) Age: 19
    1981-82: 30.66% scoring margin (212 to 147) Age: 20
    1982-83: 36.73% scoring margin (196 to 124) Age: 21
    1983-84: 38.54% scoring margin (205 to 126) Age: 22
    1984-85: 35.10% scoring margin (208 to 135) Age: 23
    1985-86: 34.42% scoring margin (212 to 141) Age: 24
    1986-87: 40.98% scoring margin (183 to 108) Age: 25
    1989-90: 9.15% scoring margin (142 to 129) Age: 28
    1990-91: 19.63% scoring margin (163 to 131) Age: 29
    1993-94: 7.69% scoring margin (130 to 120) Age: 32

    Mario Lemieux
    1987-88: 11.31% scoring margin (168 to 149) Age: 21
    1988-89: 15.58% scoring margin (199 to 168) Age: 22
    1991-92: 6.11% scoring margin (131 to 123) Age: 25
    1992-93: 7.50% scoring margin (160 to 148) Age: 26
    1995-96: 7.45% scoring margin (161 to 149) Age: 29
    1996-97: 10.66% scoring margin (122 to 109) Age: 30

    Bobby Orr
    1969-70: 17.50% scoring margin (120 to 99) Age: 21
    1974-75: 5.93% scoring margin (135 to 127) Age: 26
     
  3. bigbuffalo313

    bigbuffalo313 Registered User

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    It becomes even more ridiculous how much Gretzky dominated
     
  4. silkyjohnson50

    silkyjohnson50 Registered User

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    Thanks for posting.

    Gretzky... Yeah, enough said.

    Howe's 51-54 stretch is also very impressive. 2nd greatest offensive peak ever?
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I think I would still give 2nd greatest offensive peak to Lemieux. I think that once you account for Gretzky and injuries, Lemieux's advantage over his peers is similar to Howe's. But Howe's peak was spent with Red Kelly, the best offensive defenseman in the world and Ted Lindsay, probably the 3rd best offensive forward in the world behind Howe himself and Maurice Richard.

    But yes, when you consider all-round game, there is a very good reason to pick Howe's peak over Lemieux's.
     
  6. LeBlondeDemon10

    LeBlondeDemon10 BlindLemon Haystacks

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    If nothing else, Espo has to get a little more respect even if he played with Orr. He just knew how to score. I'm surprised his name hasn't come up in the greatest goal scorers poll. Is Howe the oldest player (34) to win the Art Ross?
     
  7. Plural

    Plural Registered User

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    Well, St.Louis won last season. So I would think he is if Howe is 2nd oldest.

    Espo gets maybe too much negatives for playing with Orr. He was one of the best offensive players ever, no matter how we look at it.
     
  8. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    Didn't Lemieux have the exact same situation (best offensive defenceman, 3rd best forward) on his team? You could argue that they didn't peak at the same time, but on the other hand their offensive peaks were higher.
     
  9. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Who's the forward? Jagr wasn't even close to 3rd best in the league when Coffey was there
     
  10. Pominville Knows

    Pominville Knows Registered User

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    Percentages against the second best scorer is all fluky. Compare them to the tenth best or something, that would actually mean something. Or preferably in a 30 team league against the 30th best, in a 21 team against the 21th best, all to adjust for the added first line minutes on the ice that has popped up during expansion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  11. Fred Taylor

    Fred Taylor The Cyclone

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    Fixed that 1986 year. Not sure if you put in 215 when you calculated the percentages.

    It's unreal by how much Gretzky dominated, and how many times he did it. Lemieux's margins of victory would be a lot more impressive if he was healthier, but it's still interesting that it seems as though someone else was also scoring a ridiculous point total the years Lemieux did.
     
  12. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I realize that the value of the second best scorer fluctuates, but I'm really not interested in a measure based off league size, where #6 in 1966 = #12 in 1967
     
  13. jigglysquishy

    jigglysquishy Registered User

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  14. amnesiac

    amnesiac Space Oddity

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    this is the stat of stats, imo.

    the only case in which that may be "deceiving" is if you had 2 dominating players throughout a long period. So in that case we would've have to have seen the % from 2nd to 3rd.
     
  15. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    It's not the % from 1st to 2nd, it's std dev from a 100 player mean, one other dominating player will barely change anything.
     
  16. monster_bertuzzi

    monster_bertuzzi registered user

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    If this doesn't show Gretz as the greatest then I don't know what will.
     
  17. Stonefly

    Stonefly Registered User

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    Would be interesting to see this broken down by position. Centres against centres, LW against LW etc... Largest margins of victory by position.
     
  18. Beef Invictus

    Beef Invictus Fugu Invicta

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    Off topic, but Punch Broadbent has to be one of the greatest names ever.
     
  19. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    You know what I mean. Hence my comment that they didn't peak at the same time.

    The point is that Howe didn't necessarily have more help than Lemieux.
     
  20. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    I wish you history people would get together for a blog and post these things to a static page so I could submit them to reddit hockey.
     
  21. Plural

    Plural Registered User

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    I think Howe definitely had more help than Lemieux. But his competition was also tougher.
     
  22. Eisen

    Eisen Registered User

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    And this is the reason it makes me sad when I read about the big3. Orr, Gretz and Mario. Howe seems forgotten by many fans.
     
  23. Plural

    Plural Registered User

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    Who talks about the "big3"? Isn't it always "The Big 4"?
     
  24. Pominville Knows

    Pominville Knows Registered User

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    So, you dont agree that double the amount of first line minutes in the league will give more high scoring forwards, defenders as well obviously?

    I dont think so. It also becomes deceiving if the league simply miss a dominant second best player. And since percentages against the second best really comes down to this, then perhaps we need to look at Gretzkys opposition, where they actually not as great after all compared other eras? I also see a big problem with players teammates finishing as clear seconds to these greats, such as Esposito for Orr, Lindsay for Howe, and Jagr for Lemieux. This aside from numerous other problems present, such as Lemieux missed games each season, Kurris missed games compared to Gretzky, and Orr being a defenseman compared here straight up against forwards.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  25. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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