Around the NHL XXXIX

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Mark Effin Stone

I miss Kuba
May 10, 2010
3,520
322
Stockholm
Yuck was my overall feeling after reading the threads on the Franzén topic on main forums.. the amount of people making fun of the notion of 'verbal abuse' was an eye opener for sure.. lack of empathy and truly ignorant on just how serious it is and what long term harm it can cause.
 
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swiftwin

★SUMMER.OF.PIERRE★
Jul 26, 2005
23,580
12,964
Yuck was my overall feeling after reading the threads on the Franzén topic on main forums.. the amount of people making fun of the notion of 'verbal abuse' was an eye opener for sure.. lack of empathy and truly ignorant on just how serious it is and what long term harm it can cause.

But hockey players have alot of money! Don't you know that your feelings don't matter if you have alot of money? :sarcasm:
 
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Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,166
9,908
Yuck was my overall feeling after reading the threads on the Franzén topic on main forums.. the amount of people making fun of the notion of 'verbal abuse' was an eye opener for sure.. lack of empathy and truly ignorant on just how serious it is and what long term harm it can cause.

A strong plurality of HF posters are snowflakes: very white and very sensitive. They love acting tough and crying about people playing victim and yet they play the victim just as well when something offends them.
 

BonkTastic

ಠ_ಠ
Nov 9, 2010
30,901
10,092
Parts Unknown
My favorite bad argument to read is any variation of:

"We used to (relevant bad behaviour here) all the time! I don't understand why (group who opposes bad behaviour) is making such a big deal about it now. Everything was better back in the old days when we were allowed to be bastards, and everyone who suffered as a result of our actions were too scared of our majority group / the power we used to wield to challenge us on it".

It's just such a ridiculous argument in almost every single context it's ever used in, and yet people still go back to the well and try to use it seriously, without somehow breaking into a fit of giggles over how insanely bad that line of logic is.

I look forward to the vocal minority (not here at HFSens, just in general) who will no doubt try to apply that same argument to their favorite coach when it comes out that the coach was a borderline psychopath all along.
 

RAFI BOMB

Registered User
May 11, 2016
7,385
7,629
I wonder how many players are going bring stuff forward just because they hated their coach?

Where do we draw the line? Is a smack up side the helmet to wake up too much?
How about Torts yelling at Gaborik asking him if he feels like scoring today?

I think you bring up some valid points. It is actually one of the challenges of the modern social climate. For a myriad of reasons many people seem unwilling to accept the reality that things are gray; they appear to look at the world as absolutes, as all-or-nothing. It is referred to as splitting in psychology and it is considered a pathological defense mechanism where people see no room for ambiguity and ambivalence.

While it would be productive to have an intellectual conversation about the subject matter and attempt to gain a greater understanding of the nuances of the situation it seems more likely that there will be a crusade with complete demonization of any suspected wrong doer.

One meaningful issue I see is that people judge others based on their current knowledge without considering what knowledge the individual they are judging had at that time they engaged in some problematic act. For example with the helmet comment the knowledge about concussions and the risks of it and what safety a helmet actually provides is much greater now than it was 5 or 10 years ago. If a coach smacked a player in the helmet 10 years ago they may have not realized the damage that could be caused from that. It is a contact sport and these players are willingly engaging in it knowing that fact, so it is possible that a coach might have assumed that the helmet is fully protecting them. It is easier to judge if someone assumes that the coach knew what they were doing was wrong and knew the full extent of damage it would cause and then still did it anyway.

I am finding the self righteous moralizing in society to be exhausting. It is frustrating when people throw ambiguity and ambivalence out the window and it is even more frustrating when people are attacked for presenting the ambiguity and ambivalence about the subject at hand. There are a lot of people filled with animosity and resentment; maybe they aren't consciously aware of it but what a lot of them are doing is simply lashing out and succumbing to a destructive motivation. That doesn't mean that as society we should just turn a blind eye to problematic behavior and and not attempt to improve situations it just means we need a much more intellectually and emotionally nuanced approach to it.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,329
8,140
Victoria
Well this seems kind of gaslighting-ish, so maybe I shouldn't bother responding but here goes. Whether Dahlen has panned out (he's still 21 and having a nice season in Sweden, FWIW) doesn't change the fact that his perceived value at the time was higher than a broken down Burrows.

Who's to say that if we maxed out Dahlen's value and acquired, say, Patrick Eaves at the 2017 deadline that we wouldn't have a Stanley Cup to our name?

Giving up a recent high 2nd rounder for UFA Burrows at the time was overpayment.

I think the point is that his perceived value in here, didn’t match his perceived value in real life, and it looks like it might have been for good reason.

People like to assume value based on how much they like a prospect, and then treat it as accepted value in real life to league GMs without a shred of corroborating evidence. It leads to this endless sense of disappointment trade after trade.

Just fans being fans, you like who you like, hate who you hate, and create fantasy value accordingly. It gives us all stuff to bicker over :)
 

Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
5,306
1,610
Ottawa
Why are we discussing 2 non-NHL players in the "Around the NHL" thread??

I think a few folks are still trying to justify the awful Burrows trade.

Anyways, nothing better than when an ahole gets served their lunch, the last few days have been a treat and a long time coming, no disrespect to the victims of course!
 

FunkySeeFunkyDoo

Registered User
Feb 3, 2009
5,055
2,699
Ottawa
I'd like to throw out an example and see how people feel about it:

I have a very clear memory of watching a US College bowl game about 30 odd years ago. I believe it was UMiami in either the Jimmy Johnson or Dennis Erickson era. The game was a blow out, in the 4th quarter Miami was up by 28 points or something like that. As they ran out the clock, maybe 5 minutes left in the game, a young Miami running back - freshman or sophomore - had a nice run for 15 or 20 yards. After being tackled he jumped up and raised his arms in the air and strutted down the field as if he'd just made the greatest play in football history.

The Miami coach clearly was not happy with the RB's behaviour. He instantly pulled him off the field and stood about two inches from him on the sideline speaking directly into his face. It didn't look like he was screaming, but it was clearly a very intense message. At one point the RB turned his head to look away and the coach put his hand on his facemask and firmly pulled it so the player had no choice but to look at him as the speech continued.

I remember the colour commentator saying, "Yeah, I've had a few coaches give me a talking to like that." ... the broadcasters definitely didn't imply that there was anything wrong with it.

What do people think? Was that crossing the line? Especially the hand on the facemask?

If you were the parent of that 18 year old player would you have been upset, maybe complained about the coach?
 

GCK

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
15,608
9,841
I'd like to throw out an example and see how people feel about it:

I have a very clear memory of watching a US College bowl game about 30 odd years ago. I believe it was UMiami in either the Jimmy Johnson or Dennis Erickson era. The game was a blow out, in the 4th quarter Miami was up by 28 points or something like that. As they ran out the clock, maybe 5 minutes left in the game, a young Miami running back - freshman or sophomore - had a nice run for 15 or 20 yards. After being tackled he jumped up and raised his arms in the air and strutted down the field as if he'd just made the greatest play in football history.

The Miami coach clearly was not happy with the RB's behaviour. He instantly pulled him off the field and stood about two inches from him on the sideline speaking directly into his face. It didn't look like he was screaming, but it was clearly a very intense message. At one point the RB turned his head to look away and the coach put his hand on his facemask and firmly pulled it so the player had no choice but to look at him as the speech continued.

I remember the colour commentator saying, "Yeah, I've had a few coaches give me a talking to like that." ... the broadcasters definitely didn't imply that there was anything wrong with it.

What do people think? Was that crossing the line? Especially the hand on the facemask?

If you were the parent of that 18 year old player would you have been upset, maybe complained about the coach?
Hell no. That sounds fine to me assuming there was nothing demeaning in his words.
 

HavlatMach9

streamable 3rah1
Mar 17, 2011
13,445
394
Ottawa
What do people think? Was that crossing the line? Especially the hand on the facemask?

If you were the parent of that 18 year old player would you have been upset, maybe complained about the coach?
Depends on the conversation. Intensity doesn't mean abuse. A player can get upset if criticized specifically about how he's playing but that's not necessarily abuse.

I don't know how the facemask thing looked but that sounds like the kind of thing that could cross the line quickly.

One thing I found weird about hockey is that you can be expected to get mugged (if you're near the net/goalie after a whistle) or forced to fight after a clean hit. The NBA doesn't tolerate a lot of stuff that NHL allows.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,832
9,766
Montreal, Canada
Imagine the day where people posting dirty messages on the internet will have to pay the price too lol

We're not there yet but it'll come. I find it funny to read people all over the internet getting outraged at that coaches antics stuff but yet, they've probably done way worse behind the anonymity of a computer.
 

Rand0m

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
1,272
987
I’ve had many coaches through the years playing competitive hockey and baseball. I’ve never had abusive coaches who hit or targeted individuals with derogatory comments. This whole idea that things like that used to be ok is BS. It was only tolerated because people didn’t have an outlet. I always think the carrot is more effective than the stick to motivate athletes.

I do think there’s a huge difference between berating (with non-discriminatory language) the whole team for poor play vs targeting a single player. But if it’s targeted towards 1 individual and becomes repetitive then I think it’s out of line. It’s also expected as a professional player to be called out for bad plays, effort and attitude, but that doesn’t mean to attack the persons character and be demeaning.

I also think a coach should NEVER strike ANY player. Just because it’s a physical sport on the ice doesn’t make it ok to hit or kick anyone.

I like that POS’s all over are finally living with the consequences of their shitty actions in all walks of life. Wether it’s racism, sexual, physical or verbal abuse, people now seem to have gained confidence to report issues, mostly because employers are actually acting on these due to public perception instead of brushing them under the rug like they often used do.

I had a wildly inappropriate co-worker who was always very flirtatious with co-workers, I had heard many stories through the years about his behaviour. About a year after the whole #MeToo stuff started happening, one female employee had had enough and was confident enough to report him, after an investigation by HR, he was fired.
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,225
49,820
not as exciting as some internet posters posting dirty messages but... Francis still taking a little heat on this.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
I'd like to throw out an example and see how people feel about it:

I have a very clear memory of watching a US College bowl game about 30 odd years ago. I believe it was UMiami in either the Jimmy Johnson or Dennis Erickson era. The game was a blow out, in the 4th quarter Miami was up by 28 points or something like that. As they ran out the clock, maybe 5 minutes left in the game, a young Miami running back - freshman or sophomore - had a nice run for 15 or 20 yards. After being tackled he jumped up and raised his arms in the air and strutted down the field as if he'd just made the greatest play in football history.

The Miami coach clearly was not happy with the RB's behaviour. He instantly pulled him off the field and stood about two inches from him on the sideline speaking directly into his face. It didn't look like he was screaming, but it was clearly a very intense message. At one point the RB turned his head to look away and the coach put his hand on his facemask and firmly pulled it so the player had no choice but to look at him as the speech continued.

I remember the colour commentator saying, "Yeah, I've had a few coaches give me a talking to like that." ... the broadcasters definitely didn't imply that there was anything wrong with it.

What do people think? Was that crossing the line? Especially the hand on the facemask?

If you were the parent of that 18 year old player would you have been upset, maybe complained about the coach?
Just touching someone's face mask is a penalty in today's game, so I don't think that's okay. You can seriously hurt someone doing that.

A coach getting in your face and yelling is probably still okay provided they're keeping on the topic of the game and the player's performance. Any kind of degrading comments or insults is going over the line. These guys are professionals and should be expected to act like it. If any one of us in our lives screamed insults at an employee or co worker we would not continue to be employed. Normal societal standards for these guys shouldn't be a big ask.
 
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Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,673
30,839
I can't say I'm surprised that Borowiecki and Burrows are sticking up for Crawford. They seem the type.
To be fair to Boro, Crawford wasn't as crazy during his sens days when Boro would have interacted with him.

Avery also stuck up for him and said he deserved to get kicked and punched... Thought that was funny.
 

Ice-Tray

Registered User
Jan 31, 2006
16,329
8,140
Victoria
Why are we discussing 2 non-NHL players in the "Around the NHL" thread??

Because Burrows is being honoured tonight during the Sens Nucks game. These are two NHL teams that he played for. So the the relationships surrounding that have come up for discussion.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
To be fair to Boro, Crawford wasn't as crazy during his sens days when Boro would have interacted with him.

Avery also stuck up for him and said he deserved to get kicked and punched... Thought that was funny.
Yeah Crawford seems to have chilled over the years. He was a legit lunatic back in Colorado and Vancouver though.
 
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