Around the NHL Thread - Found the Missing #16

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Baxterman

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By having 8 goals on the year... regardless of how he gets them and how far he’ll regress, he’s probably already outproduced lucic...

2/3 of our fwd group doesn’t have a goal... the flames haven’t scored a single goal with lucic on the ice and he’s a -3 on the year. Bringing on a player that has shown to be an ever bigger anchor at everything but hitting stuff doesn’t improve the actual team, shocker.

I’ll let this one play out at this point. People who are adamant here or anywhere else won’t be admitting anything at this point.

I am not sure why it doesn't matter how he gets them. If any replacement level guy can score the goals that he is scoring, and they certainly could, then he actually isn't helping the Oilers out at all. I know he has done a good job of getting Oiler fans giddy over nothing but he hasn't hasn't provided them with anything that one of their AHL scrubs couldn't have done if put in the same spot.

And yes Lucic sucks. I have said that many times. Criticizing James Neal and pointing out his flaws doesn't mean that I endorse Lucic. It is possible to point out how they both suck.
 

super6646

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I am not sure why it doesn't matter how he gets them. If any replacement level guy can score the goals that he is scoring, and they certainly could, then he actually isn't helping the Oilers out at all. I know he has done a good job of getting Oiler fans giddy over nothing but he hasn't hasn't provided them with anything that one of their AHL scrubs couldn't have done if put in the same spot.

And yes Lucic sucks. I have said that many times. Criticizing James Neal and pointing out his flaws doesn't mean that I endorse Lucic. It is possible to point out how they both suck.

And yet neal can be out of the oiler’s troubles at the blink of a eye if he isn’t producing with them (which he has), we don’t have that fortune. Giving Edmonton every benefit doesn’t seem like a good move to me. These next 3 years will be painful baring ltiretirenent.
 

Baxterman

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And yet neal can be out of the oiler’s troubles at the blink of a eye if he isn’t producing with them (which he has), we don’t have that fortune. Giving Edmonton every benefit doesn’t seem like a good move to me. These next 3 years will be painful baring ltiretirenent.

I don't think that Neals buyout is as great as everyone is making it out to be but yes adding Lucic and his contract completely sucks. Should have just told Neal to go home and sit out the rest of his deal rather than pay a cent to Milan Lucic. At this point they should do the same thing to Lucic but instead he will continue to be force fed minutes no matter how terrible he is.
 
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InfinityIggy

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And yet neal can be out of the oiler’s troubles at the blink of a eye if he isn’t producing with them (which he has), we don’t have that fortune. Giving Edmonton every benefit doesn’t seem like a good move to me. These next 3 years will be painful baring ltiretirenent.

Neals buyout is a whole lot better than Lucic. However, that doesn’t mean buying out Neal is painless, quite the opposite. If it’d been an option the Flames would’ve done so. The Oilers would definitely be very negatively impacted by buying out Neal. Just not to the degree of a Lucic buyout.
 

crackdown44

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Again, I get the premise. Neal wouldn’t have done what he’s doing here, bad attitude, etc.

My main issue remains that we helped out our biggest rival. Lucic for Neal is a wash for us, sure. It isn’t for Edmonton though. And yeah the buyout structures matter too

Unless he LTIRetires I’m never really going to like this deal
 

Anglesmith

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Again, I get the premise. Neal wouldn’t have done what he’s doing here, bad attitude, etc.

My main issue remains that we helped out our biggest rival. Lucic for Neal is a wash for us, sure. It isn’t for Edmonton though. And yeah the buyout structures matter too

Unless he LTIRetires I’m never really going to like this deal

I'm still not convinced he's helping them. He has 8 goals because he has four extremely efficient powerplay linemates. He doesn't participate in bringing the puck into the zone or keeping pucks alive. He waits at the blueline for the others to gain the zone, then gets to the front of the net. It could be him, it could be Chiasson, it could be Kassian, it could be Khaira. Is James Neal adding goals to their team, or are goals just being diverted to him instead of others?

It didn't work here because we don't have guys that command as much respect on the PP. The lack of shooters is our Achilles heel. Our PP improved tremendously when Tkachuk replaced Neal in that spot, because we need all five guys to participate in working the puck around in order to keep the PKers honest. The irony is that Neal was supposed to be the shooter that fixed our top-6, but turned out to not really have a shot or the ability to create one anymore.

5-on-5, Neal is still the same guy. Not much happening there outside of the Islanders game where the opposition didn't show up.
 
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crackdown44

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I'm still not convinced he's helping them. He has 8 goals because he has four extremely efficient powerplay linemates. He doesn't participate in bringing the puck into the zone or keeping pucks alive. He waits at the blueline for the others to gain the zone, then gets to the front of the net. It could be him, it could be Chiasson, it could be Kassian, it could be Khaira. Is James Neal adding goals to their team, or are goals just being diverted to him instead of others?

It didn't work here because we don't have guys that command as much respect on the PP. The lack of shooters is our Achilles heel. Our PP improved tremendously when Tkachuk replaced Neal in that spot, because we need all five guys to participate in working the puck around in order to keep the PKers honest. The irony is that Neal was supposed to be the shooter that fixed our top-6, but turned out to not really have a shot or the ability to create one anymore.

5-on-5, Neal is still the same guy. Not much happening there outside of the Islanders game where the opposition didn't show up.

You make a good point. I suppose he isn’t helping them to the tune of the 8 goals that he’s scored, but I think he’s a much better fit for them than Lucic was. Even if it’s just as a PP producer
 

Turning Mangiapanese

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I am not sure why it doesn't matter how he gets them. If any replacement level guy can score the goals that he is scoring, and they certainly could, then he actually isn't helping the Oilers out at all. I know he has done a good job of getting Oiler fans giddy over nothing but he hasn't hasn't provided them with anything that one of their AHL scrubs couldn't have done if put in the same spot.
They've tried a lot of AHL scrubs on McDavid's wing though and the only one with any success has been Chiasson AFAIK. It's still early, but nothing really points towards this trade being anything but a massive win for the Oilers. For the Flames, hockey-wise, it looks like a lateral move since Neal didn't do anything here and Lucic looks to have about the same effect. So it didn't cripple our team much if at all but significantly improved a division rival, all of which adds up to a shit trade.

I still think the main push for the trade came from the Flames ownership who were sick of paying for Treliving's FA blunders. IIRC Lucic's price tag in terms of actual $$$ was significantly lower due to the Oilers having already paid him some massive bonuses or something. Katz on the other hand just doesn't give a f*** which allowed Holland to take on the salary and improve his team.
 

Volica

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I know +/- is a somewhat misleading stat.

But when you have a guy with 8 goals through 6 games and he still manages to be a -1. That is very, very telling in my opinion.

It's a lot of PP points, it's essentially how you have to use Neal.
5v5 he's going to be a net negative player for you.
 

Fig

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Again, I get the premise. Neal wouldn’t have done what he’s doing here, bad attitude, etc.

My main issue remains that we helped out our biggest rival. Lucic for Neal is a wash for us, sure. It isn’t for Edmonton though. And yeah the buyout structures matter too

Unless he LTIRetires I’m never really going to like this deal

You never want to see guys hurt, but if Lucic is going to play like a nuclear deterrent vs skill type game for the entire time he is in Calgary, he is actually playing a way that gives him the highest chance to be LTIRetired.

They've tried a lot of AHL scrubs on McDavid's wing though and the only one with any success has been Chiasson AFAIK. It's still early, but nothing really points towards this trade being anything but a massive win for the Oilers. For the Flames, hockey-wise, it looks like a lateral move since Neal didn't do anything here and Lucic looks to have about the same effect. So it didn't cripple our team much if at all but significantly improved a division rival, all of which adds up to a **** trade.

I still think the main push for the trade came from the Flames ownership who were sick of paying for Treliving's FA blunders. IIRC Lucic's price tag in terms of actual $$$ was significantly lower due to the Oilers having already paid him some massive bonuses or something. Katz on the other hand just doesn't give a **** which allowed Holland to take on the salary and improve his team.

I dunno. I kinda agree, but I can never gather enough evidence that leads me to believe it is so. Is it fair to call Neal a blunder so early?

That being said, I cannot gather a ton of evidence on the contrary either. But I and many others (perhaps you as well) keep looking at this trade and perhaps thinking there's something about it that really doesn't follow Treliving's typical modus operandi.

Tinfoil hat time: For all we freaking know, this could be an openly bad deal to lay groundwork for some shady under the table dealings between the owners for the arena.
 

Baxterman

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They've tried a lot of AHL scrubs on McDavid's wing though and the only one with any success has been Chiasson AFAIK. It's still early, but nothing really points towards this trade being anything but a massive win for the Oilers. For the Flames, hockey-wise, it looks like a lateral move since Neal didn't do anything here and Lucic looks to have about the same effect. So it didn't cripple our team much if at all but significantly improved a division rival, all of which adds up to a **** trade.

I think the “other than Chiasson” is the part that makes what Neal is found suspect. He really isn’t doing anything 5 on 5 and his goals are all created by others. It’s better than him doing nothing but if you can get similar production from a PTO replacement level Chiasson then how much is it Neal versus the role he is in.

it reminds a bit of Ferland who people would point as being productive because he got 40 points with Monahan and Gaudreau but as we’ve seen with Hudler and Lindholm when you have someone talented there they can come close to matching the other two. So how much is it Ferland being good versus there is a minimum level that anyone will get if put in that role.
 

Mobiandi

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We already knew all of these things about Neal. Treliving definitely did, given how thorough he is. It should've shocked no one that he's a third wheel that depends on others for all his points.

The simple fact is that we did not put him in a position to succeed. The Oilers are.
 

Fig

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We already knew all of these things about Neal. Treliving definitely did, given how thorough he is. It should've shocked no one that he's a third wheel that depends on others for all his points.

The simple fact is that we did not put him in a position to succeed. The Oilers are.

He's also using a different stick than the one in Calgary.

It might be the magical touch that helps his goal scoring reach a billion again. :sarcasm:
 
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Volica

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We already knew all of these things about Neal. Treliving definitely did, given how thorough he is. It should've shocked no one that he's a third wheel that depends on others for all his points.

The simple fact is that we did not put him in a position to succeed. The Oilers are.

We were a 107 point team, best in the Western Conference and second overall in the NHL. If someone can't get it up to play a support role given the opportunity for a cup run... I'm sorry, just not the right person. He got PP time and got easy zone starts. He wasn't playing with superstars, but his GAF level was disgusting.

I agree Calgary didn't put him in a position for him to play up; but he also didn't prove to be able to play up to that level either.
 

Mobiandi

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We were a 107 point team, best in the Western Conference and second overall in the NHL. If someone can't get it up to play a support role given the opportunity for a cup run... I'm sorry, just not the right person. He got PP time and got easy zone starts. He wasn't playing with superstars, but his GAF level was disgusting.

I agree Calgary didn't put him in a position for him to play up; but he also didn't prove to be able to play up to that level either.
I mean, Bennett can't shoot the puck worth a damn and Jankowski has the on-ice vision of a gopher. For a large part of the season PP2 was a hodge-podge of awfulness, Andersson being the lone bright spot. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Neal had career lows in numbers

Yeah I'm with you on the fact that he quit on the team, but you try again next year at least for a little bit before moving him.
 

Volica

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I mean, Bennett can't shoot the puck worth a damn and Jankowski has the on-ice vision of a gopher. For a large part of the season PP2 was a hodge-podge of awfulness, Andersson being the lone bright spot. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Neal had career lows in numbers

Yeah I'm with you on the fact that he quit on the team, but you try again next year at least for a little bit before moving him.

The problem is, you can't give it another try if the guy is literally being a team cancer or just not being a team guy. Hockey is such a chemistry sport, and clearly Neal wasn't happy here. My guy that is pretty inside this organization, really pointed at Neal being severely disliked in that room. From the media we've heard too, it doesn't take much rocket science to figure out that this guy quit on the team and quit on himself last year.
 
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InfinityIggy

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Again, I get the premise. Neal wouldn’t have done what he’s doing here, bad attitude, etc.

My main issue remains that we helped out our biggest rival. Lucic for Neal is a wash for us, sure. It isn’t for Edmonton though. And yeah the buyout structures matter too

Unless he LTIRetires I’m never really going to like this deal

It's more than that too. Put aside the rivalry for a moment. the Oilers are in our division. This means that if their success (via Neal's success) propels them to a playoff spot, it could be the difference between a divisional seeding, or a wildcard seeding or missing the playoffs altogether.
 

Lunatik

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Any validity to Don Cherry’s statements on HNIC?

Was Neal pouting because Calgary didn’t treat him like a “superstar” and that resulted in his subpar season?
Absolutely he was. Just look at the goals he's scoring for Edmonton, they aren't off his shot. They are from the dirty areas, a place he never went to with the Flames.

Why does a player avoid the dirty areas? Either because they're timid or because they don't want to. Well, timid has never been used to describe Neal.
 
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Lunatik

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You make a good point. I suppose he isn’t helping them to the tune of the 8 goals that he’s scored, but I think he’s a much better fit for them than Lucic was. Even if it’s just as a PP producer
Also consider that Neal will result in more GA than Lucic did as well.
 

Baxterman

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The simple fact is that we did not put him in a position to succeed. The Oilers are.

He is only "succeeding" because he is getting tap ins from McDavid and Drasaitl on the PP. Do you think that if we took Tkachuk or Lindholm off the PP that Neal would have been a better option than them to have the chances created by others that he needs to score?

I could understand if he was lighting it up 5 on 5 or creating chances why we would think that he was misuded but all he has shown this year in Edmonton is that if other can create a situation where he has an empty net to shoot at he can score. Much like Chiasson did in the first half of the year last year.
 

Lunatik

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It's more than that too. Put aside the rivalry for a moment. the Oilers are in our division. This means that if their success (via Neal's success) propels them to a playoff spot, it could be the difference between a divisional seeding, or a wildcard seeding or missing the playoffs altogether.
Or they win a few games against Vegas and San Jose and it clinches us the division. If (and that is a big, giant, massive f***ing if), the Oilers were to make the playoffs, it is not because of James Neal, it will be because of Mike Smith and Holland getting them veteran depth rather than throwing their prospects to the wolves.
 

InfinityIggy

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Or they win a few games against Vegas and San Jose and it clinches us the division. If (and that is a big, giant, massive ****ing if), the Oilers were to make the playoffs, it is not because of James Neal, it will be because of Mike Smith and Holland getting them veteran depth rather than throwing their prospects to the wolves.

That’s a pretty fringe scenario, where the Oilers taking up a spot is not.

Also, Neals 8 goals have been the difference for them so far. Take those away and the Oilers are languishing at the bottom of the league as usual. He’s obviously not going to score at near that pace the whole season but if we gifted McDavid a good winger, we solved one of the Oilers biggest problems for them.
 

Lunatik

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That’s a pretty fringe scenario, where the Oilers taking up a spot is not.

Also, Neals 8 goals have been the difference for them so far. Take those away and the Oilers are languishing at the bottom of the league as usual. He’s obviously not going to score at near that pace the whole season but if we gifted McDavid a good winger, we solved one of the Oilers biggest problems for them.
I disagree, I think the odds of the Oilers getting into a playoff spot is quite unlikely.

If Neal wasn't there someone else would have scored most of those goals. Kassian & Chiasson would most likely have a few more goals. I doubt Neal has made a difference of more than a couple goals.

James Neal is not a good winger. He can score some ugly goals while being a complete f***ing abortion anywhere other than 5 feet from the opposition net. Goals don't make you good, they just fool stupid people into thinking you are.
 
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