Around the NHL Discussion Part XV

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MortiestOfMortys

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This Caps team really seems to buck the whole “small and quick wins cups” assumption, right? Ovie, Eller, Wilson, DSP, Connolly, Chia, Beagle... not exactly a team of Pavel Bure’s out there.
 
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wannabebluesplayer

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This Caps team really seems to buck the whole “small and quick wins cups” assumption, right? Ovie, Eller, Wilson, DSP, Connolly, Chia, Beagle... not exactly a team of Pavel Bure’s out there.

I don't think anyone has thought that only small and quick wins cups. LA was not at all small and quick. However, if you watch Washington play, there is support and puck battles being won. There is physicality but it's not been 100% bruising hits. I think the idea is that you need a mix and you have to find a mix that works. The Blues, at least recently, have gone too far in one direction. The WCF run was a time where they probably had the closest mix. Washington has guys like Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Burakovsky, and honestly, at this point, I'd through Oshie and Vrana into that mix that are more skill and speed than muscle. Ovie is truthfully one of the last pure power forwards in the game.
 

EastonBlues22

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This Caps team really seems to buck the whole “small and quick wins cups” assumption, right? Ovie, Eller, Wilson, DSP, Connolly, Chia, Beagle... not exactly a team of Pavel Bure’s out there.
That's about as accurate a representation of what people actually believe as "only big and slow wins cups" is of your position. Speed and small are not conjoined twins.

A lot of your list is actually pretty mobile, and much of the rest barely plays.

Their top 9 forwards by TOI are Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Oshie, Wilson, Eller, Burakovsky, Vrana, and Beagle, in that order. If you were to put that group someplace on the fast/mobile vs slow/immobile spectrum, it wouldn't be at the end that you're implying.
 

MortiestOfMortys

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That's about as accurate a representation of what people actually believe as "only big and slow wins cups" is of your position. Speed and small are not conjoined twins.

A lot of your list is actually pretty mobile, and much of the rest barely plays.

Their top 9 forwards by TOI are Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Oshie, Wilson, Eller, Burakovsky, Vrana, and Beagle, in that order. If you were to put that group someplace on the fast/mobile vs slow/immobile spectrum, it wouldn't be at the end that you're implying.

Ah, yes I forgot, the first thing people think of when you say Ovechkin, Wilson, Eller and Beagle is fast/mobile.

Speed and small are not conjoined twins in the same way that big/physical and slow are not. It doesn’t stop people from pretending that both are true. But “it isn’t that league anymore” so Tampa’s small soldiers should have been able to dip and dive around Washington’s stifling physicality. But they didn’t.

So I’m curious, if this is really a copycat league and Washington wins it, what is the attribute most teams will be trying to replicate? My guess is a strong (probably over performing) defense, good two-way forwards with many ways to shut you down, and a few elite offensive weapons that are engaged in the 200 foot game. It won’t be Washington’s speed.
 

Dbrownss

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Ah, yes I forgot, the first thing people think of when you say Ovechkin, Wilson, Eller and Beagle is fast/mobile.

Speed and small are not conjoined twins in the same way that big/physical and slow are not. It doesn’t stop people from pretending that both are true. But “it isn’t that league anymore” so Tampa’s small soldiers should have been able to dip and dive around Washington’s stifling physicality. But they didn’t.

So I’m curious, if this is really a copycat league and Washington wins it, what is the attribute most teams will be trying to replicate? My guess is a strong (probably over performing) defense, good two-way forwards with many ways to shut you down, and a few elite offensive weapons that are engaged in the 200 foot game. It won’t be Washington’s speed.
Those 2 are fast and mobile.....
 

Majorityof1

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I would pretty confidently say that the first characteristics people think of when you say Ovechkin and Wilson are not speed and mobility.

What does it matter what people's first impression of them is? If their players are quick and mobile then the team is quick and mobile, even if the primary thing people think of is Ovechkin's shot and Wilson's hits/fights.
 

EastonBlues22

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Ah, yes I forgot, the first thing people think of when you say Ovechkin, Wilson, Eller and Beagle is fast/mobile.

Speed and small are not conjoined twins in the same way that big/physical and slow are not. It doesn’t stop people from pretending that both are true. But “it isn’t that league anymore” so Tampa’s small soldiers should have been able to dip and dive around Washington’s stifling physicality. But they didn’t.

So I’m curious, if this is really a copycat league and Washington wins it, what is the attribute most teams will be trying to replicate? My guess is a strong (probably over performing) defense, good two-way forwards with many ways to shut you down, and a few elite offensive weapons that are engaged in the 200 foot game. It won’t be Washington’s speed.
I gave specific, concrete, reasons why it's "not that league anymore." Do you not understand that saying those reasons are "tipping the scales" in a different direction is not the same thing as stating that X will always trump Y, right? Why does it always have to be so black and white with you? It's hard to talk about trends with a person who thinks that one example to the contrary "disproves" a trend.

Find me one person who has said that smaller is better than big. Just one quote to that effect, please. It's true that smaller players are often more mobile than bigger ones, because, you know, physics...but acknowledging that correlation is not the same thing as equating the two (speed and small) in importance. They are not, flat out, and you're the only person I've seen indicate that they are. Big and fast is clearly preferable to small and fast. If you have to choose between big OR fast, well, that's where the diversion of opinions starts...but that doesn't mean that everyone who might choose something that you wouldn't at that point skips past the whole big and fast being better thing.

I'm not sure what you see in Ovechkin and to a lesser extent Eller and Wilson, but they sure aren't slow. Oshie, either. Beagle is much more so, but overall, most of Washington's forwards are not slow by any means. They're probably slower than Tampa Bay as an overall group, but that doesn't make them "slow" or "immobile."

We're getting back to your tendency to take things to extremes here. Saying "mobility and speed are important in today's NHL" is not equivalent to maintaining a "Fastest team wins!" position. One is a reasonable opinion. The other is bit of silly hyperbole that's clearly not true. I'm honestly not sure if you just can't tell the difference, or if you're getting carried away because you're passionate about this subject, or if you're intentionally conjuring it up as a straw-man to knock over.
 

Spektre

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If Vegas wins the Cup, who will be the first person in the franchise to say Vegas fans are the greatest in the world?
 

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LeBrun reporting the league expects the salary cap to jump 5 million for an 80 million dollar salary cap next year.
 

wannabebluesplayer

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Oshie’s up to 21 points in 23 games this post season. Also up to 52 points in 78 career playoff games now.

So weird. It’s almost like his playoff time here was such a small sample size that it was ridiculous to label him a playoff choker.

Or, it could be that he's playing with much more offensively gifted personnel in Backstrom, Kuznetsov, and Ovechkin than Backes, Steen, Stastny, Perron, Berglund, etc.

PS. I loved Oshie and miss him playing here, but he wouldn't have reached those heights here, unfortunately.
 

Majorityof1

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Or, it could be that he's playing with much more offensively gifted personnel in Backstrom, Kuznetsov, and Ovechkin than Backes, Steen, Stastny, Perron, Berglund, etc.

PS. I loved Oshie and miss him playing here, but he wouldn't have reached those heights here, unfortunately.

No, it was the first thing. Or the Hitch thing where he ramped up his defensive usage and strict adherence to the safe play in the playoffs, especially for the SOB shut-down line. So Vlady's first thing, or the Hitch thing, but definitely not the "he only produces with superstars thing". He was a 50-60 point regular season player with those talentless slugs, same as he is with the superstars in Washington. So unless their stardom only effects him on a full moon and in May, its not that thing.
 
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wannabebluesplayer

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No, it was the first thing. Or the Hitch thing where he ramped up his defensive usage and strict adherence to the safe play in the playoffs, especially for the SOB shut-down line. So Vlady's first thing, or the Hitch thing, but definitely not the "he only produces with superstars thing". He was a 50-60 point regular season player with those talentless slugs, same as he is with the superstars in Washington. So unless their stardom only effects him on a full moon and in May, its not that thing.

I meant his point producing in the playoffs. I agree with you on the Hitch defensive thing as well, but I think playing with Backes and Steen, especially in the playoffs, is why you didn't see the same point production in the playoffs here.
 
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