Around The NHL Discussion 2019/20 - Part III

[Eldon Reid]

Man how far Nashville has fallen on. After getting to cup finals in 16-17

Lost in 2nd round
Lost in 1st round
Now tied for last in Central

I blame that on a lot of the trades they have done lately on why they have fallen so much.

Jones for Johansen trade now looks really bad in Jan 2016 was the start of it.

• Johansen isn't a bad player, but he is no where close to where they need him to be, and look at Jones now.
• They needed a #1C but at 8 mill AAV for him, he is putting up numbers closer more like Schenn and isn't near the player of a Schenn.

Next was the Weber for Subban.

• I think Subban fit the style that Lav wanted to play more, but then they traded Subban away for couple prospects & couple picks

I think it was the 3 way trade for Turris & Duchene in 2017 was honestly the worst of the deals.

• Preds lost Girard, Kamenev, & 2nd for Turris who went on to sign 6/36 deal (THAT IS LOOKING LIKE A AWFUL DEAL)
• Since Turris got the 6/36 deal, he has played in 84 games 12 goals & 27 assists for 39 pts. (OUCH)

Traded a 1st away for Hartman.

• Nuff said

Fiala for Granlund swap.

• Granlund 48 games 7 goals 12 assist
• Fiala 55 games 11 goals 20 assist

I mean just imagine what they could have on D right now without them trades.

Josi-Weber
Ellis-Ekholm
Girard/Fabbro-Jones
Fabbro/Girard

You could of sold Ellis at a high or traded away Weber and allowed Jones to move up.

I think they mismanaged it all now looking back at it.

 

[Itsnotatrap]

Man how far Nashville has fallen on. After getting to cup finals in 16-17

Lost in 2nd round
Lost in 1st round
Now tied for last in Central

I blame that on a lot of the trades they have done lately on why they have fallen so much.

Jones for Johansen trade now looks really bad in Jan 2016 was the start of it.

• Johansen isn't a bad player, but he is no where close to where they need him to be, and look at Jones now.
• They needed a #1C but at 8 mill AAV for him, he is putting up numbers closer more like Schenn and isn't near the player of a Schenn.

Next was the Weber for Subban.

• I think Subban fit the style that Lav wanted to play more, but then they traded Subban away for couple prospects & couple picks

I think it was the 3 way trade for Turris & Duchene in 2017 was honestly the worst of the deals.

• Preds lost Girard, Kamenev, & 2nd for Turris who went on to sign 6/36 deal (THAT IS LOOKING LIKE A AWFUL DEAL)
• Since Turris got the 6/36 deal, he has played in 84 games 12 goals & 27 assists for 39 pts. (OUCH)

Traded a 1st away for Hartman.

• Nuff said

Fiala for Granlund swap.

• Granlund 48 games 7 goals 12 assist
• Fiala 55 games 11 goals 20 assist

I mean just imagine what they could have on D right now without them trades.

Josi-Weber
Ellis-Ekholm
Girard/Fabbro-Jones
Fabbro/Girard

You could of sold Ellis at a high or traded away Weber and allowed Jones to move up.

I think they mismanaged it all now looking back at it.

All valid points, and I do think Poile has made some moves that hurt his franchise, with the benefit of hindsight.

Just adding to that, and this is certainly a more egocentric viewpoint; I submit that our run last year, slingshotting past them like the previous 18-24 months had never happened, and beating their arses 4 times in a row on the way, shook their players psyches to their core.

 

[rumrokh]

Some of those deals looked good at the time (I can understand the Granlund gamble and Subban for Weber seemed a lot better than it ended up being), but...

• The Jones-Johansen deal was obviously, immediately bad. I still see Predators fans defend this as a necessary move, but Jones was starting to look really good and there were strong signs Johansen was mostly a finished product. His shot rate had gone down significantly in consecutive years. No matter how badly you need a center, if that's the center you can't live without, you're not good enough to be trading away talent like Jones.
  
• Girard + for Turris was immediately bad. Turris has been worse than expected, but it was doubling-down on the Johansen move. Desperation to get center depth because Johansen wasn't the answer.
• Dealing Subban for mediocre parts and throwing all that money at Duchene was obviously bad. With the exception of a hot year in Ottawa, he's been a 55-60 point mediocre-hockey-IQ passenger for several years.

So many high end and high quality depth centers have moved around in that time. O'Reilly, Schenn, Lindholm, Zibanejad, Kadri, Domi, Schmaltz, Strome, Tavares, Staal, Henrique, Miller, Bozak, Stastny...probably some others I'm forgetting. So to pay so much in both talent and cash for those three guys hurts pretty badly.

 

[Blueston]

Some of those deals looked good at the time (I can understand the Granlund gamble and Subban for Weber seemed a lot better than it ended up being), but...

• The Jones-Johansen deal was obviously, immediately bad. I still see Predators fans defend this as a necessary move, but Jones was starting to look really good and there were strong signs Johansen was mostly a finished product. His shot rate had gone down significantly in consecutive years. No matter how badly you need a center, if that's the center you can't live without, you're not good enough to be trading away talent like Jones.
  
• Girard + for Turris was immediately bad. Turris has been worse than expected, but it was doubling-down on the Johansen move. Desperation to get center depth because Johansen wasn't the answer.
• Dealing Subban for mediocre parts and throwing all that money at Duchene was obviously bad. With the exception of a hot year in Ottawa, he's been a 55-60 point mediocre-hockey-IQ passenger for several years.

So many high end and high quality depth centers have moved around in that time. O'Reilly, Schenn, Lindholm, Zibanejad, Kadri, Domi, Schmaltz, Strome, Tavares, Staal, Henrique, Miller, Bozak, Stastny...probably some others I'm forgetting. So to pay so much in both talent and cash for those three guys hurts pretty badly.

This feels like revisionist history. Today it is obvious that Jones is better than RyJo. At the time Jones was obviously talented but behind Weber, Josie, and more on Preds team that was weak up front and needed #1 center. 23 year old center coming off 71 point season seemed perfect.

They were universally praised for dealing aging Weber for Subban.

Turris deal was again dealing from strength to address hole. Didn’t work out but that wasn’t obvious then.

I thought Fiala deal was mistake for Preds at time but Wild got killed for it and Preds praised.

subban looks about done so dealing him for picks seems like was good idea. I’m not a Duchene fan but that signing was generally praised.

Lots of these haven’t worked out but not all were bad ideas. That said, I wouldn’t write them off. If anyone in West is gonna mirror Blues 2019 it’s Preds. They are still super dangerous.

 

[Eldon Reid]

Some of those deals looked good at the time (I can understand the Granlund gamble and Subban for Weber seemed a lot better than it ended up being), but...

• The Jones-Johansen deal was obviously, immediately bad. I still see Predators fans defend this as a necessary move, but Jones was starting to look really good and there were strong signs Johansen was mostly a finished product. His shot rate had gone down significantly in consecutive years. No matter how badly you need a center, if that's the center you can't live without, you're not good enough to be trading away talent like Jones.
  
• Girard + for Turris was immediately bad. Turris has been worse than expected, but it was doubling-down on the Johansen move. Desperation to get center depth because Johansen wasn't the answer.
• Dealing Subban for mediocre parts and throwing all that money at Duchene was obviously bad. With the exception of a hot year in Ottawa, he's been a 55-60 point mediocre-hockey-IQ passenger for several years.

So many high end and high quality depth centers have moved around in that time. O'Reilly, Schenn, Lindholm, Zibanejad, Kadri, Domi, Schmaltz, Strome, Tavares, Staal, Henrique, Miller, Bozak, Stastny...probably some others I'm forgetting. So to pay so much in both talent and cash for those three guys hurts pretty badly.

That is the big thing. Look at what other higher center required in a trade to get.

O'Reilly (5 years left) took Bergie (4 years left), Sobotka (2 years left), top 5 to top 10 prospect at the time, 1st & 2nd

Schenn (3 years) took 2 1st round picks & Lehtera

Kadri with 3 years left at 4.5 included Kadri, prospect, & 3rd for Barrie (1 year left), Kerfoot, & 6th round pick

Zibanejad (1 year left on previous deal) Deal was Zibanejad & 2nd for Brassard (3 years left) & 7th round pick

Schmaltz (RFA) was traded for Perlini (3rd line or so player) & Strome (2 years left on ELC)

Domi for Galchenyk straight up 1 for 1

Henrique prospect & 3rd for Vatanen & 3rd (If he resigned which he did)

They majorly overpaid for players in trades.

To a degree I do somewhat agree with Preds fan on the Jones-Johansen move. They did need a top end young center, but the issue is they wanted to fill that need so bad they overpaid to get it and honestly didn't do their work in to look into it I feel. in 2014-2015 they had Ribierio & Fisher both 34 as top centers. Cullen was another center at 38.

But then you flipped the future dman of your franchise ( I was huge on Jones in his draft class & remember at the time telling my couple Preds friends that this guy was going to be a stud).

The Weber-Subban trade in general I have no issue with, but now that they dealt Subban away for nothing basically it looks really bad.

 

[rumrokh]

This feels like revisionist history. Today it is obvious that Jones is better than RyJo. At the time Jones was obviously talented but behind Weber, Josie, and more on Preds team that was weak up front and needed #1 center. 23 year old center coming off 71 point season seemed perfect.

They were universally praised for dealing aging Weber for Subban.

Turris deal was again dealing from strength to address hole. Didn’t work out but that wasn’t obvious then.

I thought Fiala deal was mistake for Preds at time but Wild got killed for it and Preds praised.

subban looks about done so dealing him for picks seems like was good idea. I’m not a Duchene fan but that signing was generally praised.

Lots of these haven’t worked out but not all were bad ideas. That said, I wouldn’t write them off. If anyone in West is gonna mirror Blues 2019 it’s Preds. They are still super dangerous.

I called the Johansen trade as not improving the team years ago and I immediately called that the Turris deal was too steep and could easily backfire not just long-term, but by the end of the season it was made. I've also been a long-time critic of Duchene and was against the Blues acquiring him for market price when he was available. None of that is revisionist history.

 

[Blueston]

I called the Johansen trade as not improving the team years ago and I immediately called that the Turris deal was too steep and could easily backfire not just long-term, but by the end of the season it was made. I've also been a long-time critic of Duchene and was against the Blues acquiring him for market price when he was available. None of that is revisionist history.

Wow. You show incredible vision and foresight in predicting the past here.

 

[President Skroob]

Man how far Nashville has fallen on. After getting to cup finals in 16-17

Lost in 2nd round
Lost in 1st round
Now tied for last in Central

I blame that on a lot of the trades they have done lately on why they have fallen so much.

Jones for Johansen trade now looks really bad in Jan 2016 was the start of it.

• Johansen isn't a bad player, but he is no where close to where they need him to be, and look at Jones now.
• They needed a #1C but at 8 mill AAV for him, he is putting up numbers closer more like Schenn and isn't near the player of a Schenn.

Next was the Weber for Subban.

• I think Subban fit the style that Lav wanted to play more, but then they traded Subban away for couple prospects & couple picks

I think it was the 3 way trade for Turris & Duchene in 2017 was honestly the worst of the deals.

• Preds lost Girard, Kamenev, & 2nd for Turris who went on to sign 6/36 deal (THAT IS LOOKING LIKE A AWFUL DEAL)
• Since Turris got the 6/36 deal, he has played in 84 games 12 goals & 27 assists for 39 pts. (OUCH)

Traded a 1st away for Hartman.

• Nuff said

Fiala for Granlund swap.

• Granlund 48 games 7 goals 12 assist
• Fiala 55 games 11 goals 20 assist

I mean just imagine what they could have on D right now without them trades.

Josi-Weber
Ellis-Ekholm
Girard/Fabbro-Jones
Fabbro/Girard

You could of sold Ellis at a high or traded away Weber and allowed Jones to move up.

I think they mismanaged it all now looking back at it.

And yet, Poile is still considered one of the top GM's

 

[Bluesnatic27]

I still fault Nashville's struggle to their inability to develop top-end forwards. In the last decade, they can only boast Victor Arvidsson as any forward that has reached triple digits in either goals or assists. And now with Tolvanen not taking off as well as they hoped, they might have to be relying on the 2019 draft to churn out one more. They can draft excellent role players, you know, until they leave the team. But for a team that wants to be competitive, they have to rely on trades or signings for their top-6 forwards.

I don't think that's a good recipe for success.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

I think the biggest problem in Nashville is they rely too much on the defense to produce offense. And a lot of the players Poile has acquired look good on paper, but just don't mesh well.
Turris was a solid 2C quality player for Ottawa, his play has declined in two straight years now in Nashville.
Granlund had 2 seasons over 65 points and was on pace to break 60 for a 3rd year in a row, he's currently on pace for 35 points.

Also agreed with Bluesnatic, their drafting and developing has been very poor with forwards, besides Arvidsson they haven't drafted a forward with >.5PPG since 2005.

 

[rumrokh]

Wow. You show incredible vision and foresight in predicting the past here.

Are you okay? I'm talking about my analysis in the past, at the time of those moves, not my current read. Notice I said I thought the Subban move was good at the time, even though it's clearly not now, so I'm not sure why you'd bother to accuse me of pretense.

 

[Blueston]

Are you okay? I'm talking about my analysis in the past, at the time of those moves, not my current read. Notice I said I thought the Subban move was good at the time, even though it's clearly not now, so I'm not sure why you'd bother to accuse me of pretense.

Yeah, I mighta been a bit testy with you since I was going back and forth with you on 2 different threads at same time. Sorry.

 

[simon IC]

Now that we're patting ourselves on the back, I steadfastly maintained that Weber was a better all around defenseman than Subban and got roasted for it. Weber is still better! Montreal won that trade hands down.

 

[simon IC]

Frolik for a 4th! I didn't think he would go that cheaply. Interesting.

 

[Dbrownss]

I wasn't a fan of Jones, and preffered Johansen. Wrong.

I thought Subban for Weber was good for Nashville. Wrong.

I don't remember exactly how I felt about Fiala for Granlund...so meh.

I was a fan of Turris and wanted him in Stl. Wroooooooong.

Whole lot of swing and a miss for me lol

 

[Note Worthy]

I still think Subban for Weber was good for Nashville even if it ultimately didn't work out.

 

[David Dennison]

Signing Kovy would have been a fun storyline (moreso if Vlad was healthy) but I don't know how he would have fit into our style of play at this point in his career.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Signing Kovy would have been a fun storyline (moreso if Vlad was healthy) but I don't know how he would have fit into our style of play at this point in his career.

Don’t you? I do. It would have been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Ranksu]

Kovaltsuk to Habs 700k $ x 1-year.

The Canadiens have agreed to terms on a one-year, two-way contract with free agent forward Ilya Kovalchuk. The deal will pay Kovalchuk $700,000 at the NHL level and $70,000 in the AHL.

 

[Note Worthy]

Well here's our answer here:

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Now that we're patting ourselves on the back, I steadfastly maintained that Weber was a better all around defenseman than Subban and got roasted for it. Weber is still better! Montreal won that trade hands down.

Sure looks that way now. I remember thinking that Montreal got the better player at the time, but that long term Nashville would probably get the better of the deal. Boy was I wrong. But to be fair I don’t think many people saw a Subban faking off a cliff this badly this early.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Well here's our answer here:

Hopefully he gets the help he needs and is able to make a return to coaching. He’s a damn good coach and the league would be better for having him back.

 

[MissouriMook]

Hopefully he gets the help he needs and is able to make a return to coaching. He’s a damn good coach and the league would be better for having him back.

Makes me wonder if he was busted by the front office for either coaching or running a practice while drunk. I'm pretty sure firing someone just for being an alcoholic, without some other underlying incident affecting their work, is against the law.

 

[Note Worthy]

Makes me wonder if he was busted by the front office for either coaching or running a practice while drunk. I'm pretty sure firing someone just for being an alcoholic, without some other underlying incident affecting their work, is against the law.

I work in employment law. Alcoholism can be considered a disability by the ADA if the person is otherwise able to perform the essential functions of the job. However, employers can take action including termination if the use of alcohol affects their job performance or conduct.

So essentially firing someone just for being an alcoholic would be a bad idea. Firing someone who is an alcoholic and their drinking affects the way they perform their job in a negative way is technically legal.

 

[BlueDream]

I work in employment law. Alcoholism can be considered a disability by the ADA if the person is otherwise able to perform the essential functions of the job. However, employers can take action including termination if the use of alcohol affects their job performance or conduct.

So essentially firing someone just for being an alcoholic would be a bad idea. Firing someone who is an alcoholic and their drinking affects the way they perform their job in a negative way is technically legal.

And I’m no expert in the field but I’m sure those 2 things (being an alcoholic and it affecting their job) go hand in hand. There’s probably not many functioning alcoholics in the long term. You can get away with it for a period of time, but if you don’t get help, it will catch up to you.