Around the NHL 2020-2021 | Offseason Edition

[Winger98]

1) You look at the video and tell me where the "danger" was to Buch. Shot to the shoulder from a guy wearing a glove. Cheap? yes. Dangerous? No.
2) The dangerous play was the Panarin takedown. But frankly, considering panarin jumped on Wilson's back as Wilson was already engaged by Strome, Panarin brought that on. If I jump on Bob Probert's back while he's scrumming with someone, that's my decision. If all I get is taken down, like Panarin did, I count myself lucky.
3) I keep revisiting the idea of "horrific acts of violence" because that's the nonsensical, hysterical language used by the f***ing New York Rangers. The kind of language that real hockey people (John Davidson) distance themselves from. The kind of hyperbole that exists in almost every conversation about the incident.
4) Popular messaging doesn't make it right. It usually indicates willingness for people to let others do thinking for them.

That kind of hyperbole is existing in this conversation because you keep using it.

And watch the video, the whole thing is dangerous and cheap. Wilson's interaction with Buchnevich was dangerous and cheap, his interaction with Panarin was dangerous and cheap. Because nothing came of it you want to draw the conclusion that it couldn't be dangerous instead that it was just chance that nothing came of it.

 

[TCNorthstars]

When Panarin jumped on Wilson's back, he KNEW what he was getting into.
It's why I respect what he did.
I don't have any respect for what Wilson did. The should punch. The "wearing the belt" pose.
But I simply believe it wasn't that dangerous.
The most dangerous part of the exchange was the Panarin takedown. Which isn't even't that bad because Panarin jumped on his back while he was engaged with Strome.

It was a giant, Sean-Avery-Style nuthing burger, in terms of the DOPS getting involved.
I could have supported 1-2 games.

But the f***ing outrage all over here, Twitter and Reddit? I hope it's more performative bullshit. The same kind of bullshit Wilson displayed.
Because if people actually think what they saw were, in the words of the Rangers, "horrific acts of violence," then I'm not sure how this league can continue to go with the types of risks these guys face every day.

You're going to have to institute soccer-style/baseball-style/basketball-style rules.

Frankly, from what I've seen from DOPS, they've got it right this week.
0 games for Wilson.
2 games for Gost.
And now a hearing for Buchnevich. I think Buch thought Mantha was gonna go at him so he struck first. Which is exactly what Redmond always says players need to do to protect themselves. So that's going to be interesting.

But the way to gain friends on the Internet is to complain about the DOPS wheel of justice, blah, blah blah.

You need to stop posting in this thread. You keep making me hit the like button and that makes me feel dirty!

 

[Bench]

Because nothing came of it you want to draw the conclusion that it couldn't be dangerous instead that it was just chance that nothing came of it.

It's why I've always hated the league policy of factoring in the extent of the injury for punishment.

On a smaller level, the blood on high stick rule is a perfect example. Get grazed just right on the lip and it splits? Spit that blood and take your 4 minutes baby! Get cracked across the side of the head? Well, no blood, so 2 minutes. You're probably a little dizzy but whatever.

Like Doc said, there should be standard punishments for specific actions, regardless of outcome.

Imagine if nobody got punished when events like this happened.

The goal isn't to only react when bad things happen, it's to curb the likelihood that you're ever in that situation.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You are severely underestimating how much more we know in the last 20 years.

Yes, it's always been common sense that getting your bell rung is bad. But the long-term consequences are much more fully understood now. We didn't have the first confirmed case of CTE in a football player until 2005.

It shouldn't be surprising that as evidence and education expands, so to would those who treat it as a serious issue.

I don't think we know as much as you're saying either.

Do you think Ted Lindsay or Gordie Howe had CTE, did we check or was dying in their older age acceptable to not wonder? Remember the shock when Frank Gifford came back with this? Do you think normal civilians have it that we don't study have CTE? I have read plenty of articles on this subject that would suggest a decent amount of research on this is confirmation bias. Now I am not saying all of it or anything close to that. It is certainly a significant issue. But here is an article from a pretty anti-big business, progressive site when the Concussion movie came out and something that I remember well expecting it to line up to crush the NFL.

Concussion Gets Basic Facts Wrong and Feeds Myths About the NFL and Head Trauma

Are we actually watching players kill themselves before our eyes? No, not on average: A 2012 study of several thousand NFL retirees, conducted by researchers at the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, found that the former football players lived significantly longer than race- and age-matched controls. They were much less likely to die from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, accidental falls, or homicides than anybody else. That doesn’t mean that taking hits improved their health, of course; surely the opposite is true. But still this study gave the lie to a fundamental intuition about football and one that’s touted almost everywhere. There’s zero evidence that playing professional football shortens lives on average. Those are the facts. Take ’em or leave ’em.

I don't know how many people have it or what causes it to become a far more impactful version in some. But I totally disagree with the idea we didn't know this sport was dangerous. I mean I think the first game I went to had three bench clearing brawls with the Flames in the 80s the Wings got dusted while Yzerman had a three point night, but the loudest cheer of the night was the Wings doctors being paged to the Calgary dressing room after the last one. Guys didn't wear helmets. I wouldn't say the game hasn't evolved or anything. But I don't think you can remove the physical elements for a variety of reasons, guys will still do this just like fighting in other sports and things of that nature. Honestly the way they have made the game faster also might be just as dangerous if not more so for the game than scrums and fights. I don't think we know, I think we need a lot more research. But hockey was incredibly dangerous and appeared so from the moment I walked into an arena as a 4 year old. My guess is those guys knew as did their parents, mine certainly did in the mid 80s not recently was kind of my broader point...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It's why I've always hated the league policy of factoring in the extent of the injury for punishment.

On a smaller level, the blood on high stick rule is a perfect example. Get grazed just right on the lip and it splits? Spit that blood and take your 4 minutes baby! Get cracked across the side of the head? Well, no blood, so 2 minutes. You're probably a little dizzy but whatever.

Like Doc said, there should be standard punishments for specific actions, regardless of outcome.

Imagine if nobody got punished when events like this happened.

The goal isn't to only react when bad things happen, it's to curb the likelihood that you're ever in that situation.

I am all for a DOPS overhaul and a refreshing of rules.

Yzerman is on the record back in his Tampa segment that he thinks fighting should be a Game Misconduct, so we know how we will vote as an organization on fighting.

But they have struggled to come up with this system because it is hard to take all of the variables in. That is why for a while now I have pushed for the IIHF interpretation of the game on a lot of the rulebook. However, I do currently interpret the NHL game with the rulebook they have and the systems in place.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That kind of hyperbole is existing in this conversation because you keep using it.

And watch the video, the whole thing is dangerous and cheap. Wilson's interaction with Buchnevich was dangerous and cheap, his interaction with Panarin was dangerous and cheap. Because nothing came of it you want to draw the conclusion that it couldn't be dangerous instead that it was just chance that nothing came of it.

Buchnevich hurt Ovie... I don't know why that part of this keeps being ignored. Not condoning the action just stunned people don't get why Wilson is giving his shoulder the business in that exchange.

 

[Bench]

I don't think we know as much as you're saying either.

Do you think Ted Lindsay or Gordie Howe had CTE, did we check or was dying in their older age acceptable to not wonder? Remember the shock when Frank Gifford came back with this? Do you think normal civilians have it that we don't study have CTE? I have read plenty of articles on this subject that would suggest a decent amount of research on this is confirmation bias. Now I am not saying all of it or anything close to that. It is certainly a significant issue. But here is an article from a pretty anti-big business, progressive site when the Concussion movie came out and something that I remember well expecting it to line up to crush the NFL.

Concussion Gets Basic Facts Wrong and Feeds Myths About the NFL and Head Trauma



I don't know how many people have it or what causes it to become a far more impactful version in some. But I totally disagree with the idea we didn't know this sport was dangerous. I mean I think the first game I went to had three bench clearing brawls with the Flames in the 80s the Wings got dusted while Yzerman had a three point night, but the loudest cheer of the night was the Wings doctors being paged to the Calgary dressing room after the last one. Guys didn't wear helmets. I wouldn't say the game hasn't evolved or anything. But I don't think you can remove the physical elements for a variety of reasons, guys will still do this just like fighting in other sports and things of that nature. Honestly the way they have made the game faster also might be just as dangerous if not more so for the game than scrums and fights. I don't think we know, I think we need a lot more research. But hockey was incredibly dangerous and appeared so from the moment I walked into an arena as a 4 year old. My guess is those guys knew as did their parents, mine certainly did in the mid 80s not recently was kind of my broader point...

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your view and even cite some reputable sources.

I'm on my phone so I can't give this the attention it needs this moment, but in regards to the part about NFL players life expectancy - I believe the issue there isn't shortened life but quality of life.

There’s zero evidence that playing professional football shortens lives on average. Those are the facts. Take ’em or leave ’em.

We don't need to look any further than Franzen. There's no indication he won't live a long, long time. His kind of experience would not show up as relevant in that data as presented. And I think that's a pretty big oversight.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your view and even cite some reputable sources.

I'm on my phone so I can't give this the attention it needs this moment, but in regards to the part about NFL players life expectancy - I believe the issue there isn't shortened life but quality of life.



We don't need to look any further than Franzen. There's no indication he won't live a long, long time. His kind of experience would not show up as relevant in that data as presented. And I think that's a pretty big oversight.

The article is pretty fascinating @Bench and I in no way want to minimize that trauma is endured by playing these sports. By the way working in construction, I watch the installers at work do tremendous damage to their bodies daily. We have protections in place, we follow OSHA guidelines, but these guys are going to be in pain later in life.

What I will say is that is what the article actually highlights in a different point in terms of the pain angle. What we do know about professional athletes in contact sports is they are in more pain than the average citizen. Again though is this something we would find at a higher clip in people that have more physically active jobs?

I am not trying to be a no-it-all or contrarian. But I don't think we know a ton on this subject. I think we are scratching the surface. I also think with some of the adjustments in the game we have seen and some of the adjustments they will likely make in the coming years we can hopefully minimize some long-term ramifications. For instance, why do we still allow loose straps on players knowing these issues? Put on full cages (eliminates fighting and removing the helmet), put on neck guards (that one drives me insane in terms of seriously WTF are you waiting for NHL) and some of the other things. The NHLPA themselves stands in the way of a ton of this. Not claiming to have the solution.

But per their own rulebook and given the surrounding circumstances of this instance, I think people are picking a terrible example to go to the hill and die for on this. I just don't see it. But I think it is a discussion we are going to be having for the next 5 to 10 years and I do think there are going to be some changes. We will see what happens, but concussions aren't going anywhere in a sport that has a puck travel at these speeds, players skate at these speeds and some of the other variables.

Not saying don't avoid them. For those picking on defending Kronwall. He hit legally by the rulebook, his biggest injury rendered was actually for separating Ryane Clowe's shoulder after he said the game before he wished he could have jumped him. Not a gauntlet of head injuries that people pretend to invoke on him. I mean until we go to the no head shots ever IIHF style ruling it is hard to see why some of these events would render the punishments others are driving for pretty hard at this point. You can call for change, I don't believe in making it on the fly and retroactively punishing guys that played in a different set of rules.

 

[Winger98]

Buchnevich hurt Ovie... I don't know why that part of this keeps being ignored. Not condoning the action just stunned people don't get why Wilson is giving his shoulder the business in that exchange.

if Wilson thought there was something he needed to avenge all he had to do was drop the gloves and go with the guy. If Buchnevich chooses not to defend himself then he's probably just going to get rag dolled and knocked around for a bit. If this was the path Wilson chose rather than just being a hot headed twit I think that reflects worse on him and makes the lack of a suspension worse.

Truth be told, though, and I think there's a fair chance Wilson just popped Buchnevich wherever he could comfortably target. Nothing about that altercation left me with the impression that Wilson has the greatest impulse control.

It's why I've always hated the league policy of factoring in the extent of the injury for punishment.

On a smaller level, the blood on high stick rule is a perfect example. Get grazed just right on the lip and it splits? Spit that blood and take your 4 minutes baby! Get cracked across the side of the head? Well, no blood, so 2 minutes. You're probably a little dizzy but whatever.

Like Doc said, there should be standard punishments for specific actions, regardless of outcome.

Imagine if nobody got punished when events like this happened.

The goal isn't to only react when bad things happen, it's to curb the likelihood that you're ever in that situation.

It might not have been so bad if they would have followed league policy and maybe considered Wilson's suspension history. For all of the worry that this is only a big deal because it's wilson...well, there's a reason for that. When a guy like Wilson or Cooke or Torres or Ulf or Marchment, etc., etc. does something like this...yeah, it's going to be noticed.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

if Wilson thought there was something he needed to avenge all he had to do was drop the gloves and go with the guy. If Buchnevich chooses not to defend himself then he's probably just going to get rag dolled and knocked around for a bit. If this was the path Wilson chose rather than just being a hot headed twit I think that reflects worse on him and makes the lack of a suspension worse.

Truth be told, though, and I think there's a fair chance Wilson just popped Buchnevich wherever he could comfortably target. Nothing about that altercation left me with the impression that Wilson has the greatest impulse control.



It might not have been so bad if they would have followed league policy and maybe considered Wilson's suspension history. For all of the worry that this is only a big deal because it's wilson...well, there's a reason for that. When a guy like Wilson or Cooke or Torres or Ulf or Marchment, etc., etc. does something like this...yeah, it's going to be noticed.

What is his suspension history for bad scrum behavior?

I kind of honestly thought he got a raw deal on the boarding on Carle early this year though it was vicious, I remember initially this was supposed to be for repeated similar transgressions. Now his ruling earlier this year kind of shifted it to well we will throw the book at you regardless of how if you cross the line any way. You cannot tell me his charging (it wasn't actually boarding even if they called it that) suspension from earlier in the year isn't coming with that many games to almost anybody else.

A big part of this in my opinion is it happening on the PK for Washington. In terms of your impulse control, I remember this from Probert when I was younger and he was on Stevie Wonders line. When scrums broke out because Yzerman would skate to the bench Probert took two guys and really as many guys as he could. I think he wants to get Buchnevich for the Ovie thing. He is right there at the end of the play in the crease, so here is a punch and it escalates. Is a guy like Wilson going to mind that it escalates, absolutely not. He is the toughest guy on the ice without question in every game he plays in except against maybe Vegas? Buchnevich has a pretty long history of me watching to think he can be a ratty fake tough guy at times and I think Wilson was interested in sending that message. I do think there was calculation. That guys jumped on his back and didn't really tie him up correctly and as I said earlier apparently the NHL officials and linesman don't know who he is or are too scared to do their job played a significant role too for me. I wish it could have ended a different way, but I don't really see a suspension.

I honestly don't find Wilson in that tier of the other guys, I know he is in the eyes of many and he is currently the league boogeyman slime. But knee hitters, jumpers and elbowers he really isn't to be honest. He just doesn't ever let off, he hits at a huge rate of speed with that massive frame, when he is fighting he seems to flip a switch as well. That is a problem at times like you saw when he incredible hulked the Rangers PP1 unit.

Once it sets off though it is going to go where it goes. We have seen that for a while and I understand those that just want it gone from the sport. While it might create negative PR, it also is an element of the game most in person experience fans are pretty excited about and to date the NHLPA itself votes overwhelmingly in favor of. It is a challenging question for the league moving forward.

 

[MBH]

That kind of hyperbole is existing in this conversation because you keep using it.

And watch the video, the whole thing is dangerous and cheap. Wilson's interaction with Buchnevich was dangerous and cheap, his interaction with Panarin was dangerous and cheap. Because nothing came of it you want to draw the conclusion that it couldn't be dangerous instead that it was just chance that nothing came of it.

That is the hyperbole that can't be separated from this discussion.
From this hyperbole, on the record, straight from an NHL's PR department, comes the same sort of thinking that says "Wilson should get a long suspension," blah blah blah.

Nothing came of it because NOTHING dangerous happened.
You can only hurt a guy so much when you punch him in his padded shoulder with your padded glove.

Could Panarin have been hurt? Sure.
But again, Panarin climbed onto Wilson. You choose to ride a raging bull, that's on you to a certain degree.
Wilson has every right to throw him down. He did that and basically left it at that.
And if Wilson wanted to hurt either of these guys, they'd be hurt. He did not try to hurt these guys.

It was a low-risk, circus show that made Wilson look like a WWE clown.
Made the Rangers ownership look like the local Tea and Crumpets Society Club.
And made a who bunch of hockey fans look like follow-the-leader reactionaries.

In the meantime, I'm guessing the Rangers and Caps games are going to be way more interesting for the next two years.

 

[Winger98]

What is his suspension history for bad scrum behavior?

I kind of honestly thought he got a raw deal on the boarding on Carle early this year though it was vicious, I remember initially this was supposed to be for repeated similar transgressions. Now his ruling earlier this year kind of shifted it to well we will throw the book at you regardless of how if you cross the line any way. You cannot tell me his charging (it wasn't actually boarding even if they called it that) suspension from earlier in the year isn't coming with that many games to almost anybody else.

A big part of this in my opinion is it happening on the PK for Washington. In terms of your impulse control, I remember this from Probert when I was younger and he was on Stevie Wonders line. When scrums broke out because Yzerman would skate to the bench Probert took two guys and really as many guys as he could. I think he wants to get Buchnevich for the Ovie thing. He is right there at the end of the play in the crease, so here is a punch and it escalates. Is a guy like Wilson going to mind that it escalates, absolutely not. He is the toughest guy on the ice without question in every game he plays in except against maybe Vegas? Buchnevich has a pretty long history of me watching to think he can be a ratty fake tough guy at times and I think Wilson was interested in sending that message. I do think there was calculation. That guys jumped on his back and didn't really tie him up correctly and as I said earlier apparently the NHL officials and linesman don't know who he is or are too scared to do their job played a significant role too for me. I wish it could have ended a different way, but I don't really see a suspension.

I honestly don't find Wilson in that tier of the other guys, I know he is in the eyes of many and he is currently the league boogeyman slime. But knee hitters, jumpers and elbowers he really isn't to be honest. He just doesn't ever let off, he hits at a huge rate of speed with that massive frame, when he is fighting he seems to flip a switch as well. That is a problem at times like you saw when he incredible hulked the Rangers PP1 unit.

Once it sets off though it is going to go where it goes. We have seen that for a while and I understand those that just want it gone from the sport. While it might create negative PR, it also is an element of the game most in person experience fans are pretty excited about and to date the NHLPA itself votes overwhelmingly in favor of. It is a challenging question for the league moving forward.

I've been trying to find a good wording for how the league is supposed to consider suspension history and all I keep finding is a vague thing about "suspension history" and of breaking the rules. It is also different from "repeat offender" status. My impression is the league has it vague as hell so they have the wiggle room to apply it however they want when they want.

When I watch Wilson, I see a guy who repeatedly comes from odd angles to run guys and he routinely goes high and hard. Is he as blatant as Cooke or Torres? No, but I don't think he's that far from it. He reminds me a bit more of Derian Hatcher, who was also dirty as hell but dirty in a way you could watch and go, "yeah, but physics." But if Derian played today...yeah, I think he'd be getting a lot of calls from the league. I don't know if Wilson has a switch or if he just doesn't care. In the end, I see the same results from him and guys like cooke - a lot of questionable hits and injuries.

The league isn't gutsy enough to outright ban fighting, but they've discouraged it for years to the point where a guy like Tom Wilson is such a unicorn. They've also heavily discouraged stick work and players defending themselves a bit by getting their sticks up. At the same time, the NHL hasn't been willing to really embrace the role of enforcer, either. You mentioned elsewhere going with full cages, neck guards, etc., and I expect that to come and be the NHL's way of defacto getting rid of fighting. I know it's also been mentioned, maybe by you, that the speed and checking in today's game could be just as hazardous as the cheapshots, which I also agree with.

I think the NHL is a mess on this front. I think it's a mess on a lot of fronts, such as injury reporting, too.

 

[Winger98]

That is the hyperbole that can't be separated from this discussion.
From this hyperbole, on the record, straight from an NHL's PR department, comes the same sort of thinking that says "Wilson should get a long suspension," blah blah blah.

Nothing came of it because NOTHING dangerous happened.
You can only hurt a guy so much when you punch him in his padded shoulder with your padded glove.

Could Panarin have been hurt? Sure.
But again, Panarin climbed onto Wilson. You choose to ride a raging bull, that's on you to a certain degree.
Wilson has every right to throw him down. He did that and basically left it at that.
And if Wilson wanted to hurt either of these guys, they'd be hurt. He did not try to hurt these guys.

It was a low-risk, circus show that made Wilson look like a WWE clown.
Made the Rangers ownership look like the local Tea and Crumpets Society Club.
And made a who bunch of hockey fans look like follow-the-leader reactionaries.

In the meantime, I'm guessing the Rangers and Caps games are going to be way more interesting for the next two years.

Yeah, because there are so many folks lining up in this discussion repeating it endlessly that you have to bring the false narrative on it. You're banging that drum by yourself here because it allows you to just make broad statements with a degree of false authority.

And apparently Panarin was hurt. He's done for the year. But imagine what would have happened if Wilson tried.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I've been trying to find a good wording for how the league is supposed to consider suspension history and all I keep finding is a vague thing about "suspension history" and of breaking the rules. It is also different from "repeat offender" status. My impression is the league has it vague as hell so they have the wiggle room to apply it however they want when they want.

When I watch Wilson, I see a guy who repeatedly comes from odd angles to run guys and he routinely goes high and hard. Is he as blatant as Cooke or Torres? No, but I don't think he's that far from it. He reminds me a bit more of Derian Hatcher, who was also dirty as hell but dirty in a way you could watch and go, "yeah, but physics." But if Derian played today...yeah, I think he'd be getting a lot of calls from the league. I don't know if Wilson has a switch or if he just doesn't care. In the end, I see the same results from him and guys like cooke - a lot of questionable hits and injuries.

The league isn't gutsy enough to outright ban fighting, but they've discouraged it for years to the point where a guy like Tom Wilson is such a unicorn. They've also heavily discouraged stick work and players defending themselves a bit by getting their sticks up. At the same time, the NHL hasn't been willing to really embrace the role of enforcer, either. You mentioned elsewhere going with full cages, neck guards, etc., and I expect that to come and be the NHL's way of defacto getting rid of fighting. I know it's also been mentioned, maybe by you, that the speed and checking in today's game could be just as hazardous as the cheapshots, which I also agree with.

I think the NHL is a mess on this front. I think it's a mess on a lot of fronts, such as injury reporting, too.

Hatcher is a great example. I just think some of these guys don't care if you get hurt. He is probably in that category. By the way while everyone rushes to do this. Keep in mind our current best prospect has an outcome where he does become one of the league boogeyman. Seider absolutely has the ability to be one of these guys, he even outright says he wants you to feel pain. Now really hurt somebody, I don't think so and I am not always sure on Wilson, but just saying that might be an interesting development for some people here. We are about to have a top 10 feared guy in the league in my opinion shortly. Not maybe Wilson's status but we will have to see where that goes.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

well, then the NHL might be forced into some sort of consistency with it and the youtube warriors dissecting every penalty and whether or not there was a connection with the chest/shoulder/whatever. The latter shouldn't matter but it would just get annoying.

Unfortunately we already have that, but at least the NHL might see a decrease in head injuries since players will have to be much more careful and not aim at player's heads for any reason, even something small.

But yeah, no matter what there is going to be a bunch of nuance and be a problem for the DOPS to be consistent.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Does anybody find the Wilson Panarin scrum thing more out of bounds than when Muzzin bodyslammed Mantha? Just wondering, cause I sure don't...

 

[Hen Kolland]

Does anybody find the Wilson Panarin scrum thing more out of bounds than when Muzzin bodyslammed Mantha? Just wondering, cause I sure don't...

I hold them on the same tier of troublesome, and I argued aggressively for Muzzin to be suspended.

Using any form of leverage to slam a player to the ice isn’t going to fly with me. There’s a difference between a generic take down and a true body slam.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I hold them on the same tier of troublesome, and I argued aggressively for Muzzin to be suspended.

Using any form of leverage to slam a player to the ice isn’t going to fly with me. There’s a difference between a generic take down and a true body slam.

I found Muzzin's a lot worse, he really used his body to leverage it. Not just a pure strength deal for me there like I felt it was here.

But just saying for people shocked at this we have seen worse in terms of throwing an opponent to the ice that has gone completely unpunished. Don't think Muzzin even got a fine for that.

 

[HisNoodliness]

I found Muzzin's a lot worse, he really used his body to leverage it. Not just a pure strength deal for me there like I felt it was here.

But just saying for people shocked at this we have seen worse in terms of throwing an opponent to the ice that has gone completely unpunished. Don't think Muzzin even got a fine for that.

Yeah I'd say that one should have been suspended too. It was also Parros and I feel he's really done a terrible job ever since he became head of DoPS. I agree that Muzzin's actions were worse but not by much. I think the players involved definitely has a lot to do with why there's so much more stink this time. Panarin is a legit superstar playing in NYC and Wilson has a storied tale as one of the league's dirty players. Mantha is a first liner but no superstar, and Muzzin doesn't have the same track record as Wilson (I don't think he's been suspended before?)

Both should have been suspended but based on their histories, I think it's easier to argue Wilson intended to injure than Muzzin. I really think Wilson should be on his last straw and what for most players is a one game suspension should be a ten game suspension for Wilson. Once you've outed yourself as someone that very purposefully injures other players, the league needs to make you understand that it won't be tolerated. Muzzin is a normal hockey player that stepped outside the bounds one time. Wilson is a danger to the rest of the league.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

The logic here is silly because you are taking a sport that's main goal has quite literally has nothing to do with physical contact. You could adapt the rules to remove fighting, severely punish head contact, and allow for the standard push and shove and everything about the actual point of the sport would be the exact same. I'm not saying that's what I want, but the fact that you think that agreeing to the potential (please note that this says potential) for significant (and largely preventable) brain and other physical trauma is the core requirement to participate is just unfortunate. Yes there are risks to participating in contact sports, but that doesn't mean we can't mitigate those risks.

I think fighting and hitting and all this stuff has a place in the sport, and I would be upset to see it go. I just want to see it governed better by the league. If you and Bench decide to drop the gloves off the opening faceoff, I will gladly watch because you both know what you are getting into. What I want to see the league do is ensure that players don't have the freedom to clip someone with an elbow, drive someone's head through the boards, bounce a head off the ice, jump an unwilling participant from behind. And if those things do happen, I want to see the league step up to the plate and punish it accordingly. That is the point of having a department dedicated to player safety. You keep players safe by putting a stop to problems before they become problems, not wait until the worst case scenario happens. Most players don't want to deal with the ramifications of repeated brain injuries, and that should be the primary focus of DoPS.

You are using way too many words and wasting way too much time trying to have a discussion with someone who doesn't even care about the topic so much as he cares about the attention (the clicks if you will) that his contrary stand brings him. I don't get why so many posters, who have always seemed to be intelligent and reasonable, repeatedly jump on the merry go round with this guy.

 

[Bench]

I don't get why so many posters, who have always seemed to be intelligent and reasonable, repeatedly jump on the merry go round with this guy.

 

[Hen Kolland]

You are using way too many words and wasting way too much time trying to have a discussion with someone who doesn't even care about the topic so much as he cares about the attention (the clicks if you will) that his contrary stand brings him. I don't get why so many posters, who have always seemed to be intelligent and reasonable, repeatedly jump on the merry go round with this guy.

You’ve never gone on the same carnival ride more than once?

 

[Winger98]

Hatcher is a great example. I just think some of these guys don't care if you get hurt. He is probably in that category. By the way while everyone rushes to do this. Keep in mind our current best prospect has an outcome where he does become one of the league boogeyman. Seider absolutely has the ability to be one of these guys, he even outright says he wants you to feel pain. Now really hurt somebody, I don't think so and I am not always sure on Wilson, but just saying that might be an interesting development for some people here. We are about to have a top 10 feared guy in the league in my opinion shortly. Not maybe Wilson's status but we will have to see where that goes.

Seider is going to draw some heat because of how physical he is but when I watch clips of him I don't see him making the sort of plays or taking the sort of angles that would make him look dirty. I watch his clips and I see Rob Blake more and more. Just a real big, solid guy who takes the body but does it in a pretty straight up way. He's going to infuriate other fans and he is going to cross the line from time to time, but I don't see a guy like Derian Hatcher or even Adam Foote, who would go out of his way to be a bit cheap. Seider has the potential to be a really special player.

 

[RabidBadger]

You’ve never gone on the same carnival ride more than once?

Not when a ride leaves one's ass chapped and a feeling of utter dissatisfaction at the end of it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, because there are so many folks lining up in this discussion repeating it endlessly that you have to bring the false narrative on it. You're banging that drum by yourself here because it allows you to just make broad statements with a degree of false authority.

And apparently Panarin was hurt. He's done for the year. But imagine what would have happened if Wilson tried.

If he didn't operate with false authority, he wouldn't have any at all... so there is that.

Also, the DOPS needs to get out of the idea that "oh, nothing actually bad came of this thing that looked incredibly dangerous, so it's not worthy of a bad suspension". Like when Weber decided to bash Zetterberg's head into the dasher like he was Stone Cold Steve Austin and Zetterberg was fine come next game. Why on Earth should it matter that Zetterberg didn't have a long-running neck injury that came from it. I mean, all it takes is a guy to fall one centimeter incorrectly to have something really bad happen. Let's face it, Wilson should face a super long suspension because he's an ultra-repeat offender at this point. This one wasn't especially bad, but he's clearly not learning to play within the rules. Frankly, I think whether a guy is actually injured by a dirty play should kind of be irrelevant when it comes to enforcing a penalty because getting injured or not on a cross-check, a hip check, a slewfoot? It's all in how you manage to land. A crosscheck is all about how the body reacts to the jolt. Like how Larkin got put out for several games due to the dirty cross-check. On camera it didn't look particularly bad, but with necks and spines and heads... the difference between I'm fine and can walk it off and I can't walk at all anymore is measured in fractions of inches.