Around the NHL 2019-2020 | Offseason Edition

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jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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If I'm Pittsburgh you hang on as long as you can. Not wasting Crosby's remaining career on rebuilding.
I think you misread my post. I'm saying that I'd trade Crosby because otherwise his remaining career will be wasted on a roster going nowhere because of a denial over the need to rebuild, just like Detroit from ~2014-2017.

I get it. PR hits and "having a star to sell to the fans" and all that stuff are important to lots of people. I'm just saying that there are still negative consequences to hanging on, and Pittsburgh is about to experience them in spades.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,756
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Cleveland
I'm still sort of surprised the Pens didn't try selling high on letang after they won that last Cup without him. He would have cleared a good chunk of cap space and likely brought back some prime assets. Instead, they tried to buy low on Jack Johnson.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
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Ft. Myers, FL
I'm still sort of surprised the Pens didn't try selling high on letang after they won that last Cup without him. He would have cleared a good chunk of cap space and likely brought back some prime assets. Instead, they tried to buy low on Jack Johnson.

I am not sure how Letang would fair in front of a new set of doctors at his mandatory physical to complete the trade... There were grumbles that they would consider it until the stroke, you haven't heard much of anything since that event about trading him.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
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Ft. Myers, FL
I hear you. But I'm somebody that wanted Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg traded circa 2015. It was never gonna happen, but the math of it all back then, and now for Pittsburgh, is something along these lines:

There's about a 1 percent chance of Rutherford somehow mortgaging enough of the future and shuffling enough assets to pull off a borderline miracle. Something like, sign Taylor Hall and also bring in either Pietrangelo or Krug. Then the Penguins do have one more kick at the can for another 2-3 years.

There's about a 99 percent chance of Crosby and Malkin never seeing the Conference Finals again in their careers, let alone winning another Cup. Pittsburgh will be a 1st / 2nd round exit for a few years, then begin missing the playoffs. But the front office will emphasize to the fans how "close they are" and how "if they just get in, anything can happen". (So renew those season tickets, best friends, and hang in there.) And the last half dozen years of those otherwise stellar careers will be completely wasted on a dying roster that simply does not have enough talent that is young enough and at a low enough cap hit to be a legit contender ever again.

It's a very real side of professional sports, but it's the one I hate the most, because it has absolutely nothing to do with striving for excellence, and everything to do with risk aversion in the name of continuing to put dollars in the owner's pockets.

I guess my point was these were real human beings, not inanimate assets that can be sent around with no disregard for the fact this is really complicated. Trading Datsyuk and Zetterberg wasn't a realistic option, it is a revisionist history that I cannot agree to. I understand some will have asked for it. People can ask for us to sign Hall, Krug and Markstrom to reasonable contracts this off-season, it doesn't mean that reality exists. Also, even if you were willing to swan dive after the Tampa series when Babcock left it doesn't mean that would have been the majority in the market. Hell the Wings were in a tooth and nail fight already with Datsyuk just to honor his contract, he wasn't reporting, we weren't getting assets for him. Malkin is probably similar here in terms of I think he plays in Russia or Pittsburgh, they can do what they want, but he isn't going to help them even in the we should trade him scenario.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,853
8,578
I guess my point was these were real human beings, not inanimate assets that can be sent around with no disregard for the fact this is really complicated. Trading Datsyuk and Zetterberg wasn't a realistic option, it is a revisionist history that I cannot agree to. I understand some will have asked for it. People can ask for us to sign Hall, Krug and Markstrom to reasonable contracts this off-season, it doesn't mean that reality exists. Also, even if you were willing to swan dive after the Tampa series when Babcock left it doesn't mean that would have been the majority in the market. Hell the Wings were in a tooth and nail fight already with Datsyuk just to honor his contract, he wasn't reporting, we weren't getting assets for him. Malkin is probably similar here in terms of I think he plays in Russia or Pittsburgh, they can do what they want, but he isn't going to help them even in the we should trade him scenario.
Any further debate would just derail the thread. No argument that certain players would be less tradeable (or not tradeable at all). But for overall philosophy we will have to agree to disagree.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,684
Can we get AA back but contingent on no more AA threads? I want that written into his deal.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
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Ft. Myers, FL
Yikes if Kenny let’s that happen.

Paid two 2nds and a 3rd for AA and Green. They combined for 11 games played and 2 points.

Keep in mind a large part of our board reacted with outright scorn about the return on AA, who proved to be what the minority of the board said...

Plays when he wants to play. You would think this is the wake up call, but how many does he get? AA is a really talented dude, personally I am done with him. I do really hope it works out for the team that signs him, I just cannot believe it anymore... Don't want, really at any price, I just don't think he can get there here at all. I really don't believe he will in general, but especially in Detroit.
 
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MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
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redwingsnow.com
All his superfans are so quiet now. Weird.

Because bringing him up just invites bullshit, snide remarks and bullshit.

AA played well in the playoffs for Edmonton. Didn't produce.
In Detroit, this season, before the trade, he wasn't the old AA we knew.

AA shots/60
15-16 9.72
16-17 8.4
17-18 9.61
18-19 9.32
19-20 7.98

Goals/60
15-16 1.39
16-17 1.27
17-18 0.87
18-19 1.22
19-20 .59


Also, individual scoring chances for/60
15-16 9.92
16-17 8.23
17-18 8.47
18-19 9.5
19-20 7.1

What we saw from AA in the playoffs was a return to form.
Shots per/60 improved to 8.54/60
And scoring chances /60 was 14.25/60
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
Because bringing him up just invites bullshit, snide remarks and bullshit.

AA played well in the playoffs for Edmonton. Didn't produce.
In Detroit, this season, before the trade, he wasn't the old AA we knew.

AA shots/60
15-16 9.72
16-17 8.4
17-18 9.61
18-19 9.32
19-20 7.98

Goals/60
15-16 1.39
16-17 1.27
17-18 0.87
18-19 1.22
19-20 .59


Also, individual scoring chances for/60
15-16 9.92
16-17 8.23
17-18 8.47
18-19 9.5
19-20 7.1

What we saw from AA in the playoffs was a return to form.
Shots per/60 improved to 8.54/60
And scoring chances /60 was 14.25/60

A return to form! Woah.

Dude would literally have to shit himself on the bench, multiple games, for you to admit you were wrong.
 
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MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
A return to form! Woah.

Dude would literally have to shit himself on the bench, multiple games, for you to admit you were wrong.

See you brought this up, and referenced me here, for no other reason to say this. Because you've got MBH derangement syndrome.

AA smashed his back in his period of pre-season play.
And his skating didn't look right ALL year.

His skating looked right by the playoffs. The actual goals/assists didn't show up. But the underlying stats were there.

AA will sign a one year deal and blow up and get a handsome deal next year.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
I mean, from what I saw, he didn't seem to be dynamic whatsoever. And the fact he can't get qualified at a whopping $3 mil isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of how Edmonton thought of his play.

Maybe he will have a bounce-back season. Maybe he won't. But he has a lot of work to do to demonstrate his one 30 goal season wasn't a fluke.
 
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Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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See you brought this up, and referenced me here, for no other reason to say this. Because you've got MBH derangement syndrome.

It's downright comical how hard to dig in when you generate your contrarian position. The fact that you can spin everything that's happened with AA in Edmonton into anything but a total failure is a true gift.

You cried giving him away for two 2nds was insane. In thread after thread after thread.

AA was placed with his ally Holland in Edmonton, maybe the best place for him to succeed, and he could barely get ice time despite being their big deadline acquisition. And Edmonton is talking about MOVING ON from him already. He legitimately did a lot worse than even I expected and yet I didn't expect much.

Oh, but he turned the corner playing on the 4th line getting less than 11 minutes a game. Generating 0 points. Going -2. While being unable to handle literally any duties the coaches want from him.

It was such a dramatic corner turn for AA, he's likely turned his way right off the Oilers roster.
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
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7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
It's downright comical how hard to dig in when you generate your contrarian position. The fact that you can spin everything that's happened with AA in Edmonton into anything but a total failure is a true gift.

You cried giving him away for two 2nds was insane. In thread after thread after thread.

AA was placed with his ally Holland in Edmonton, maybe the best place for him to succeed, and he could barely get ice time despite being their big deadline acquisition. And Edmonton is talking about MOVING ON from him already. He legitimately did a lot worse than even I expected and yet I didn't expect much.

Oh, but he turned the corner playing on the 4th line getting less than 11 minutes a game. Generating 0 points. Going -2. While being unable to handle literally any duties the coaches want from him.

It was such a dramatic corner turn for AA, he's likely turned his way right off the Oilers roster.

And was promoted to Drai's line when Yamamoto went down.
I actually watched the games. Pretty sure you didn't, or you'd know how improved he was.
I've got eyeball evidence (good enough for me) and statistical evidence.

You could learn to bury a hatchet.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
I'm not sure that it is a big deal that AA got put on Drai's line at some point when he was 14th among skaters in average ice time in the playoffs (I removed any players who didn't play all four games).

And in the one game that gave him a whopping 14 minutes he ended up with no points and was -2. He wasn't solely to blame on the two goals (certainly not at fault for goal #1), but what am I supposed to have been impressed about?
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
I'm not sure that it is a big deal that AA got put on Drai's line at some point when he was 14th among skaters in average ice time in the playoffs (I removed any players who didn't play all four games).

And in the one game that gave him a whopping 14 minutes he ended up with no points and was -2. He wasn't solely to blame on the two goals (certainly not at fault for goal #1), but what am I supposed to have been impressed about?

I've already given you
1) My opinion he improved and looked more like AA we saw last year.
2) Statistical evidence of that.
3) Anecdotal evidence (he was promoted)

We can beat the dead horse all you want.

But I'm not going to get sucked into defending an opinion you guys don't even have the courage to argue against.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
I've already given you
1) My opinion he improved and looked more like AA we saw last year.
2) Statistical evidence of that.
3) Anecdotal evidence (he was promoted)

We can beat the dead horse all you want.

But I'm not going to get sucked into defending an opinion you guys don't even have the courage to argue against.
I'm literally arguing against your opinion as it is. Is his shots/60 over a four game sample supposed to continue over an 82 game season? I don't accept that premise if that is what you are arguing.

Also I also watched him play and did not see much in the way of "improvement" that makes me think Edmonton made the right decision to acquire him, or that the Red Wings should get him back. And despite what you saw and what the limited analytics showed, Edmonton didn't want to qualify him.

What are you expecting from him going forward?
 

MBH

Players Play
Jul 20, 2019
13,497
7,298
SE Michigan
redwingsnow.com
I'm literally arguing against your opinion as it is. Is his shots/60 over a four game sample supposed to continue over an 82 game season? I don't accept that premise if that is what you are arguing.

Also I also watched him play and did not see much in the way of "improvement" that makes me think Edmonton made the right decision to acquire him, or that the Red Wings should get him back. And despite what you saw and what the limited analytics showed, Edmonton didn't want to qualify him.

What are you expecting from him going forward?

I'll take limited stats over no stats, which is what you offered.
I'll weigh my observations against yours by adding those of Coach Tippett
BLOG: Athanasiou draws praise from Coach Tippett


"That's probably the best game we've seen him play," Tippett said after his post-game coach's meeting on Monday. "Dynamic speed and acceleration. Wanted the puck all night and really brought something to the table for us."
On Tuesday, Tippett doubled-down on his praise for Double-A.
"You see those individual bursts and plays where he's really hungry for the puck, those are things that a player like him - even though he might not be getting as much ice time as some players - he can have an impact," said the Oilers coach.
"You noticed his speed throughout the game… I was happy to see how he played, how he reacted and, hopefully, that's a good step forward for him."

Edmonton has incredible cap problems and major needs in goal and on defense.
Choices must be made.

I am expecting a return to the 25-30 goal range if he finds a place that gets him 16-17 minutes a night.
If not, I still expect an increase in goals/60, shots/60, scoring chances /60... so that he's closer to his pre-19-20 stats than his 19-20 stats.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
I'll take limited stats over no stats, which is what you offered.
I offered ice time as to what role he had on the team (10th among forwards, behind Riley Sheahan), you just chose not to acknowledge it.

I'll weigh my observations against yours by adding those of Coach Tippett
BLOG: Athanasiou draws praise from Coach Tippett


"That's probably the best game we've seen him play," Tippett said after his post-game coach's meeting on Monday. "Dynamic speed and acceleration. Wanted the puck all night and really brought something to the table for us."
On Tuesday, Tippett doubled-down on his praise for Double-A.
"You see those individual bursts and plays where he's really hungry for the puck, those are things that a player like him - even though he might not be getting as much ice time as some players - he can have an impact," said the Oilers coach.
"You noticed his speed throughout the game… I was happy to see how he played, how he reacted and, hopefully, that's a good step forward for him."
So why did he barely play compared to the other forwards on the team? I understand he isn't likely to get PK time, but falling so low among forwards in terms of ice time doesn't exactly help the argument about Tippett being so enamoured with his play.

I am expecting a return to the 25-30 goal range if he finds a place that gets him 16-17 minutes a night.
If not, I still expect an increase in goals/60, shots/60, scoring chances /60... so that he's closer to his pre-19-20 stats than his 19-20 stats.
I suppose we will see.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
Also I will say that whether AA gets those 16-17 minutes a night is up to AA. Nobody is going to hand anything to him. If he wants the ice time to succeed he has to convince his next coach that he deserves that time.
 
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