Around The NHL 2018-2019 Edition: Part I

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Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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Giroux put up over 100 points last year. I'd say he's pretty damn good lol.
He's going to be 31 in two months. With three more years left on his deal after this season, I suspect he'll be traded if the Flyers decide to go full rebuild.
 

Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
13,670
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Detroit has a worse roster currently and a more barren cupboard. Why wouldn't it make sense to be envious of what they have?
I'm not envious of anything the Flyers have, particularly when it comes to their younger roster players and prospect pool.
 

Christien

Registered User
May 1, 2010
5,078
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This Avs team man... So entertaining. Crazy to think that they might have a top 10 pick this year :popcorn:
 

Ezekial

Cheap Pizza, Bad Hockey
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Nov 22, 2015
22,397
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Yep, "that was f***ed"

The two buddies I talk hockey with most frequently are a Nucks fan and an Avs fan. Needless to say they're both having a fun season. Vancouver is really good at tanking right now too.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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Because the Wings won a cup 10 years ago and that seems to trump everything any other team who hasn't won recently has done.

Sorry there is a crowd of people, in fact most of the scorched earth rebuild people point out cups are what matters and you shouldn't bother being after anything but cups. So why acknowledge people that haven't won anything in a super long time and actually don't look all that likely to win anything all that soon. Philly would be an example of that for me, but maybe I am missing something.

I mean I get the broader talk here, but lets not pretend everyone is trying to have the most honest discussion all the time around here. I think the standard we hold are own to and others to is very different for some people around here is all.
 
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ManwithNoIdentity

Registered User
Jun 4, 2016
6,932
4,298
Kalamazoo, MI
Laine is incredible, when you watch Ovechkin score you can see the power behind his shots, when Laine scores it's like he has a magic wand and the puck just ends up in the net. He makes it look so effortless.

Laine has three hat tricks this month alone...

Edit: 4 goals tonight and there's still a period to go.

Edit: 5 goals


Yet he'll get overlooked by most, it's ridiculous
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
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Auburn Hills
Sorry there is a crowd of people, in fact most of the scorched earth rebuild people point out cups are what matters and you shouldn't bother being after anything but cups. So why acknowledge people that haven't won anything in a super long time and actually don't look all that likely to win anything all that soon. Philly would be an example of that for me, but maybe I am missing something.

I mean I get the broader talk here, but lets not pretend everyone is trying to have the most honest discussion all the time around here. I think the standard we hold are own to and others to is very different for some people around here is all.

I think you're missing my point. We've had a contingent of Wings fans completely dismiss everything that David Poile and Nashville has done because they've never won a cup. Yet they've been one of the best teams in the league the last couple of years and have been a contender for that time, despite never winning. If the Wings were in the same situation as Nashville, hardly anyone would be complaining.

Sure, some would, just like people complained about things throughout the Wings dominance, but nothing like we're seeing now.

People are very protective over the Wings and some don't want to look at any other team and give anyone else credit because it's either a) not the Wings way or b) they don't like feeling insecure that other teams are now better than the Wings at a lot of things.

My entire premise of my post is that you can't dismiss other teams accomplishments, just because they haven't won a cup. Anyone who says they wouldn't trade places with Nashville, Tampa, Winnipeg etc... are liars.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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I think you're missing my point. We've had a contingent of Wings fans completely dismiss everything that David Poile and Nashville has done because they've never won a cup. Yet they've been one of the best teams in the league the last couple of years and have been a contender for that time, despite never winning. If the Wings were in the same situation as Nashville, hardly anyone would be complaining.

Sure, some would, just like people complained about things throughout the Wings dominance, but nothing like we're seeing now.

People are very protective over the Wings and some don't want to look at any other team and give anyone else credit because it's either a) not the Wings way or b) they don't like feeling insecure that other teams are now better than the Wings at a lot of things.

My entire premise of my post is that you can't dismiss other teams accomplishments, just because they haven't won a cup. Anyone who says they wouldn't trade places with Nashville, Tampa, Winnipeg etc... are liars.

So I am a liar, interesting argument tactic, agree with me or else....

I wouldn't trade places with those teams. Where we are now is a result of our greatness and the teams you just listed outside of Tampa experiencing it with results hasn't happened and Tampa has been elite a handful of times during their good periods.

I don't dismiss what we just did either. You cannot get me to change places when there is only one organization with the same amount of cups as us since I have been alive.

You can only look at the future and swapping teams right now. I still view it as a whole picture. You are asking me to evaluate things based on your vision of how I should look at things is a part of the context in this argument.

What I am saying is the argument you think you're making begets the argument I am making in response. While you would like to uncouple them, I am unwilling to.

No I would not trade places with Winnipeg. I don't want to watch my team leave town during my lifetime or some of the other things.

When I rip Toronto's back-end as not Cup worthy, it isn't jealousy, yes we draw on having seen the consistently best team in the league for a quarter century. Why would I shelf that knowledge of a hockey team because we are now at the bottom of the pile when we knew it would eventually happen. The system is designed to make it happen. There is a time limit on the teams you're describing, none of them have won and maybe they are not going to. If you don't think that goes differently in remembrance see the good St. Louis, Vancouver and San Jose teams we saw a lot of during our runs that never paid it off. That isn't jealousy it is what happened. But we all look at things different. But to me the whole picture is worth taking a look at, especially if shots are going to be taken at people that assembled winning rosters.

Your upset that people are making Poile negativity posts. I get to read people ripping a HHOF GM that played a massive part in winning four Stanley Cups, 6 finals and 25 straight post-seasons. That guy is an non-adaptive idiot in a lot of posts. Sorry if you cannot convince me I should do backflips for Poile while hammering Holland. I even openly campaigned to hire his assistant GM so it isn't that I don't think he is good. It is that he has a different team and different circumstances. If Holland is forced out for Yzerman I don't think it goes much different. That is sort of the crux of my argument. That yes luck is a part of this, but man this thing is hard to do. We should show a little more appreciation for that in my opinion than I witness at times. But certainly you don't have to. But I don't think much of most of the fire Holland crowd and lets swap situations with other teams, I am entitled to that as an opinion as well.

I am a Wings fan and proud of what we have accomplished, I choose to look at the whole picture. This isn't in a 12 banner way or what some fear in terms of Montreal arguments 20+ years on. If the next few years continue to be completely rocky maybe this changes. However, I believe in the current direction, we have rounded the corner and embraced what we are in terms of rebuild time. Time will tell when we are back at the top, but this is all a part of the process for me.
 
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Heaton

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So I am a liar, interesting argument tactic, agree with me or else....

I wouldn't trade places with those teams. Where we are now is a result of our greatness and the teams you just listed outside of Tampa experiencing it with results hasn't happened and Tampa has been elite a handful of times during their good periods.

I don't dismiss what we just did either. You cannot get me to change places when there is only one organization with the same amount of cups as us since I have been alive.

You can only look at the future and swapping teams right now. I still view it as a whole picture. You are asking me to evaluate things based on your vision of how I should look at things is a part of the context in this argument.

What I am saying is the argument you think you're making begets the argument I am making in response. While you would like to uncouple them, I am unwilling to.

No I would not trade places with Winnipeg. I don't want to watch my team leave town during my lifetime or some of the other things.

When I rip Toronto's back-end as not Cup worthy, it isn't jealousy, yes we draw on having seen the consistently best team in the league for a quarter century. Why would I shelf that knowledge of a hockey team because we are now at the bottom of the pile when we knew it would eventually happen. The system is designed to make it happen. There is a time limit on the teams you're describing, none of them have won and maybe they are not going to. If you don't think that goes differently in remembrance see the good St. Louis, Vancouver and San Jose teams we saw a lot of during our runs that never paid it off. That isn't jealousy it is what happened. But we all look at things different. But to me the whole picture is worth taking a look at, especially if shots are going to be taken at people that assembled winning rosters.

Your upset that people are making Poile negativity posts. I get to read people ripping a HHOF GM that played a massive part in winning four Stanley Cups, 6 finals and 25 straight post-seasons. That guy is an non-adaptive idiot in a lot of posts. Sorry if you cannot convince me I should do backflips for Poile while hammering Holland. I even openly campaigned to hire his assistant GM so it isn't that I don't think he is good. It is that he has a different team and different circumstances. If Holland is forced out for Yzerman I don't think it goes much different. That is sort of the crux of my argument. That yes luck is a part of this, but man this thing is hard to do. We should show a little more appreciation for that in my opinion than I witness at times. But certainly you don't have to. But I don't think much of most of the fire Holland crowd and lets swap situations with other teams, I am entitled to that as an opinion as well.

I am a Wings fan and proud of what we have accomplished, I choose to look at the whole picture. This isn't in a 12 banner way or what some fear in terms of Montreal arguments 20+ years on. If the next few years continue to be completely rocky maybe this changes. However, I believe in the current direction, we have rounded the corner and embraced what we are in terms of rebuild time. Time will tell when we are back at the top, but this is all a part of the process for me.

It's still hypocritical. If the Wings had Nashville's roster, the same people criticizing them, would be defending them.

I also think it shows a lack of understanding when you bring up the fact that it's cup or bust, most people don't believe that, so that's another dismissive tactic that you're using. Wings fans (and sports fans of Detroit teams in general) seem to have very low standards these days, which is disappointing. There should be a level of expectation of competing for championships, not an expectation of winning, but an expectation of competing.

I'm all for the rebuild, but I still am skeptical of the plan, especially since this team is far away and isn't doing enough to try and accumulate the talent that is needed.

We've seen great strides from Larkin, AA, Mantha and now Cholowski and Bert. But we need some higher end picks like Tampa and Winnipeg accumulated over many years. So when those teams do get those pieces, I'm not going to dismiss them because they've never won a cup. There's no telling if the Wings will ever win a cup again, even after we get the talent we need. But I'm not going to dismiss the work that was put into building them and the success they have trying to win a cup if they don't actually get there.

Being proud of what the Wings have accomplished over the years is great, but for me, that's in the past. That doesn't diminish Holland's hall of fame status, but it also doesn't guarantee he can build a team from the ground up, considering he's never done it (or been in a position to do it) before.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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It's still hypocritical. If the Wings had Nashville's roster, the same people criticizing them, would be defending them.

I also think it shows a lack of understanding when you bring up the fact that it's cup or bust, most people don't believe that, so that's another dismissive tactic that you're using. Wings fans (and sports fans of Detroit teams in general) seem to have very low standards these days, which is disappointing. There should be a level of expectation of competing for championships, not an expectation of winning, but an expectation of competing.

I'm all for the rebuild, but I still am skeptical of the plan, especially since this team is far away and isn't doing enough to try and accumulate the talent that is needed.

We've seen great strides from Larkin, AA, Mantha and now Cholowski and Bert. But we need some higher end picks like Tampa and Winnipeg accumulated over many years. So when those teams do get those pieces, I'm not going to dismiss them because they've never won a cup. There's no telling if the Wings will ever win a cup again, even after we get the talent we need. But I'm not going to dismiss the work that was put into building them and the success they have trying to win a cup if they don't actually get there.

Being proud of what the Wings have accomplished over the years is great, but for me, that's in the past. That doesn't diminish Holland's hall of fame status, but it also doesn't guarantee he can build a team from the ground up, considering he's never done it (or been in a position to do it) before.

I think we have embraced the rebuild though. I don't have a whole lot of issues with how this team has been run over the last 18 months. In terms of the actual actions. It is designed at developing the next great generation. Some will say he was forced fine, but we are in it now. We are accumulating.

Those strides are important, if we are a Winnipeg, Tampa, Chicago, these are our first waive in terms of guys making up a new core. The older parts of their cores, the Seabrook maybe or Wheeler. That hopefully the more talent fills in below.

I still think we are getting a top five pick this year and I am banking on a top 10 pick the next year. But we are beginning to take strides forward and I like the steps we have made to load up on certain assets. We need those two picks and some UFA activity where we have a ton of money coming off the books the next two off-seasons. I don't view us in the same level of peril in terms of the rebuild. Yes we are going to need some luck, every rebuild needs luck. But I like some of the pieces we have assembled, I think we still need two more big ones hopefully one of the next two drafts and a UFA can make that up or someone outkicks their coverage that we already have similar to Larkin who I think we can argue has passed that which we expected in terms of a #1C and captain.

I don't need to trade our guys, I am fine watching the team come up from the bottom and enjoy the journey, like I did as a young fan with the Wings. I like this process. If you asked me for the organizational roster I would trade for in the league at this point it would be Vancouver. They basically have assembled my favorite young core and still have a couple more high picks on a cycle like us in terms of the outlook. But if that is what we are talking I think most here know how I feel about Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes and the gang, man they are fun to watch too.
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
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925
Auburn Hills
I think we have embraced the rebuild though. I don't have a whole lot of issues with how this team has been run over the last 18 months. In terms of the actual actions. It is designed at developing the next great generation. Some will say he was forced fine, but we are in it now. We are accumulating.

Those strides are important, if we are a Winnipeg, Tampa, Chicago, these are our first waive in terms of guys making up a new core. The older parts of their cores, the Seabrook maybe or Wheeler. That hopefully the more talent fills in below.

I still think we are getting a top five pick this year and I am banking on a top 10 pick the next year. But we are beginning to take strides forward and I like the steps we have made to load up on certain assets. We need those two picks and some UFA activity where we have a ton of money coming off the books the next two off-seasons. I don't view us in the same level of peril in terms of the rebuild. Yes we are going to need some luck, every rebuild needs luck. But I like some of the pieces we have assembled, I think we still need two more big ones hopefully one of the next two drafts and a UFA can make that up or someone outkicks their coverage that we already have similar to Larkin who I think we can argue has passed that which we expected in terms of a #1C and captain.

I don't need to trade our guys, I am fine watching the team come up from the bottom and enjoy the journey, like I did as a young fan with the Wings. I like this process. If you asked me for the organizational roster I would trade for in the league at this point it would be Vancouver. They basically have assembled my favorite young core and still have a couple more high picks on a cycle like us in terms of the outlook. But if that is what we are talking I think most here know how I feel about Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes and the gang, man they are fun to watch too.

I agree with mostly everything here, but I am worried about the Wings not having a top 5 pick yet. If we get one this year I'll be extremely happy. But I am a firm believer that without a top 3-5 pick we aren't going to successfully rebuild.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
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Ft. Myers, FL
I agree with mostly everything here, but I am worried about the Wings not having a top 5 pick yet. If we get one this year I'll be extremely happy. But I am a firm believer that without a top 3-5 pick we aren't going to successfully rebuild.

I think December is going to be very rough.

We flat out don't have enough talent. I like how hard the team is playing, I like the growth. But when I turn on the rest of the teams with NHL.tv I got to tell you we are not going to make this stick long-term. I admire the will of a lot of our younger guys, but they are still growing. I think we are about to go through another stretch where we win just a couple over a 10 game segment.

Since currently I have the presumptive #2 pick at #6 on my board I like the odds of us in the bottom three and picking a player that will make a sizeable impact.

But especially in terms of the around the league thread, I see just a lot more talent elsewhere in the league, it is where we are in they cycle. But we are getting some positive signs out of guys that should be here and good players when we snap out of it. Our rollercoaster nature will put us back down where the prognosticators put us. But still at least for periods we can watch the young crew get a taste of how hard it is to win and getting positive reinforcement in terms of the work level I have seen a lot of times out of several of them thus far.
 

The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
3,382
1,184
To chime in on the Heaton/TZE debate:

When talking about roster values, I don't think it's so much discounting the Wings' accomplishments over their run, I think it has more to do with the fact that you can't really properly evaluate an organization over a huge period of time. Management teams come and go, dominant play styles in the league come and go, the structure of the league itself changes (salary cap, draft lottery) etc. You kind of have to evaluate things in blocks of 5-10 years at most. So in that sense where we are now is not 'just' a result of our greatness. There have been many stumbles and counterproductive moves in the past half-decade. Where we are now could be very different had those 'lost' years played out differently in terms of drafting, free agency, trades, etc., i.e. if the rebuild had started earlier.

It's interesting that the teams mentioned in your exchange have been Winnipeg, Chicago, Tampa, and Nashville. The first three have taken the path us scorched earthers advocated for years ago, that you needed to be the worst so that you could be the best again. It's hard to argue against the value of that approach given the success that Chicago has enjoyed (and you can't ignore it if we're talking in the context of Cup wins), the success that Tampa has enjoyed, and that Winnipeg is currently enjoying. And the latter 2 show no signs of slowing down either. But on the other hand, Nashville has taken an approach much more similar to what the Wings have. Regarding the draft, they never had a top 5 pick as far as I'm aware. Yet they have been contenders for several years now.

So 'scorched earth' and 'steady as she goes' can both lead to contention given a smart management team, IMO. I think it has more to do with evaluating where your team currently is to determine the correct approach. That's why I don't favour a scorched earth approach anymore, that ship has sailed. The time to do that (which is when I favoured it) would have been when this team was overflowing with bloated vet contracts and there wasn't much of anything to boast about in the under-25 department. The only 2 hard decisions in a scorched earth scenario would have been Datsyuk and Zetterberg, the rest would have been easy.

That was Holland's major flaw in my eyes, that he didn't bite the bullet when he should have and wasted 3-4 years treading water with no real plan for the future. Ironically he ended up in essentially the same scenario that a scorched earth approach would have put him in, a blank slate. So that's why I call those 3-4 seasons 'lost years'. However I have been pleased with Holland's work over the last 1-1.5 years. He has improved his drafting tremendously and has so far mostly avoided bad contracts. For the first time in a long time, our salary cap outlook actually looks pretty good in the medium-long term.

Holland's legacy is set in Detroit, no doubt about it. The 2012-2016/7 years are just an unfortunate blemish on an otherwise stellar career. And he has once again started to show the wisdom and savvy that made his so successful and legendary in the first place. That said I am still hoping Yzerman will become this team's new GM after this season. Only because I think he is skilled like Holland (I mean, he was basically his apprentice), and that he will be able to stay in the game for a long time because of his age. I also think he is a better cap manager. It's time for Stevie Y to come home and take that torch to lead Detroit into the next Golden Age. He'll be coming in with a solid foundation to build upon, just like Holland had way back in the early 90s.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,202
14,685
I agree with mostly everything here, but I am worried about the Wings not having a top 5 pick yet. If we get one this year I'll be extremely happy. But I am a firm believer that without a top 3-5 pick we aren't going to successfully rebuild.

I’ve said as much many times, but honestly it’s not all within your control and you do need some luck.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
To chime in on the Heaton/TZE debate:

When talking about roster values, I don't think it's so much discounting the Wings' accomplishments over their run, I think it has more to do with the fact that you can't really properly evaluate an organization over a huge period of time. Management teams come and go, dominant play styles in the league come and go, the structure of the league itself changes (salary cap, draft lottery) etc. You kind of have to evaluate things in blocks of 5-10 years at most. So in that sense where we are now is not 'just' a result of our greatness. There have been many stumbles and counterproductive moves in the past half-decade. Where we are now could be very different had those 'lost' years played out differently in terms of drafting, free agency, trades, etc., i.e. if the rebuild had started earlier.

It's interesting that the teams mentioned in your exchange have been Winnipeg, Chicago, Tampa, and Nashville. The first three have taken the path us scorched earthers advocated for years ago, that you needed to be the worst so that you could be the best again. It's hard to argue against the value of that approach given the success that Chicago has enjoyed (and you can't ignore it if we're talking in the context of Cup wins), the success that Tampa has enjoyed, and that Winnipeg is currently enjoying. And the latter 2 show no signs of slowing down either. But on the other hand, Nashville has taken an approach much more similar to what the Wings have. Regarding the draft, they never had a top 5 pick as far as I'm aware. Yet they have been contenders for several years now.

So 'scorched earth' and 'steady as she goes' can both lead to contention given a smart management team, IMO. I think it has more to do with evaluating where your team currently is to determine the correct approach. That's why I don't favour a scorched earth approach anymore, that ship has sailed. The time to do that (which is when I favoured it) would have been when this team was overflowing with bloated vet contracts and there wasn't much of anything to boast about in the under-25 department. The only 2 hard decisions in a scorched earth scenario would have been Datsyuk and Zetterberg, the rest would have been easy.

That was Holland's major flaw in my eyes, that he didn't bite the bullet when he should have and wasted 3-4 years treading water with no real plan for the future. Ironically he ended up in essentially the same scenario that a scorched earth approach would have put him in, a blank slate. So that's why I call those 3-4 seasons 'lost years'. However I have been pleased with Holland's work over the last 1-1.5 years. He has improved his drafting tremendously and has so far mostly avoided bad contracts. For the first time in a long time, our salary cap outlook actually looks pretty good in the medium-long term.

Holland's legacy is set in Detroit, no doubt about it. The 2012-2016/7 years are just an unfortunate blemish on an otherwise stellar career. And he has once again started to show the wisdom and savvy that made his so successful and legendary in the first place. That said I am still hoping Yzerman will become this team's new GM after this season. Only because I think he is skilled like Holland (I mean, he was basically his apprentice), and that he will be able to stay in the game for a long time because of his age. I also think he is a better cap manager. It's time for Stevie Y to come home and take that torch to lead Detroit into the next Golden Age. He'll be coming in with a solid foundation to build upon, just like Holland had way back in the early 90s.

Seth Jones is a top 5 pick in terms of the Preds and that is a part of this with those other teams.

Chicago and Winnipeg were bad long before they started tanking, the Atlanta/Winnipeg team was in the top 10 for decade and change. The moment Chicago started spinning their wheels big was really after the Chelios trade. So think of how long it took to actually embrace the tank. And if we were to hold them to the standards of our decline it is the departures of Roenick, Belfour and Almonte in the early to mid 90s. They were still a playoff team like us but surely they should have fired out Daze and Chelios and anybody useful would be the narrative around here I guess.

Tampa bottomed out with a multiple Hart Trophy winner on their roster, not so much intentionally Vinny just never rebounded from the Cooke cheapshot and it tanked their existing team along with the ill-fated Boyle trade.

Toronto resisted a rebuild for a similar timeline to us and had pretty great luck when they did embrace it to be honest and it happened quickly. I think at this point this is the one they are targeting though talent wise they look a lot more like Winnipeg in terms of the team they are building in my opinion.

We are in a similar timeline so far hopefully we don't have to stay there and repeat the ample top 10 pick process twice in a 15 year period like Chicago and Atlanta/Winnipeg. Tampa and Toronto would be preferable in terms of the time spent being one of the worst teams in the league. Most of these teams embraced their rebuild in a similar timeframe or much longer than we actually did. Though most also change management teams and I get that.

I am fine with the change as long as it is an Yzerman type. But we have really only embraced the rebuild in the last 18 months and it has actually been going well thus far. At the very least Holland has made this decision a heck of a lot more palatable for Yzerman at this point. He has some blocks and potential valuable assets coming soon.
 
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