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Stephen

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Maybe the key to cheap RFA's is after the ELC period, you have a second contract that has a max. 4-5 year term limit before UFA status kicks in and you can cap that second contract dollar amount at something like $7.5 million. That way there's a fee structure to the first 7 years, then it's open season.

Or maybe you get a cap break for bigger salaries of home grown talent?
 

Superstar

"Be water, my friend."
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I think the Newfoundland growlers would prefer a player with more skill and not just truculence

Maybe when Burke mentioned truculence, he really meant truckulence...I mean, he did refer anecdotally to an 18 wheeler falling off a cliff...perhaps he was thinking about Biggs...his name does rhyme with rigs...Burke is more prophetic than we give him credit for... :sarcasm:
 

Barilko14

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That's easier said than done in a cap system.

UFAs are players too and need to get paid also. They have a longer proven track record than their RFA counterparts to justify the premium in their salaries. UFAs are part of the collective PA, so it's not as if they could simply be pushed aside in favour of RFAs. An argument can be made that the max term for a UFA should not be longer than 5 years (so as to avoid having to pay for the less productive years after they turn 32 to 33), but that will simply push up their AAV, which will have an adverse effect on the cap. You can theoretically force players out of the league in their early to mid 30's by overpaying RFAs because there's only so much money to go around in a cap system (that already happens organically as older players in their mid to late 30's retire, and those who play beyond 40 are just rare breeds), though why will anyone do that in a unionized labour workplace?

The problem with paying RFAs huge sums of money is most of them have only been in the league playing consistently for 2 to 3 years, so their sample size for their production is relatively small compared to UFAs - you're betting mostly on potential rather than consistent, tangible output through a longer period of time. This is risky in two folds: first, if they justify their perceived over payment, then they can be overpaid significantly when they reach UFA status; secondly, if they don't live up to the value of their contracts, you've tied up your cap with bad contracts for significant time, which weakens any team's position to support the roster (and that includes being able to sign over-priced UFAs).

UFA salaries won't come down (especially at 27 to 28 years old) even if RFAs are paid alot more, and that's a major problem in a cap system. If anything, this will destabilize teams even further...maybe that makes it more exciting for the league and for player movement, but it will definitely be more stressful for everyone...we already witness these dynamics in play where teams scramble to trade away young assets that they can't afford to pay, trade potential UFAs for younger and controllable assets, or simply let them walk.

The key to stable, reasonable RFA salaries is in the negotiations between the owners/management and the players and their agents. It doesn't take much for an imprudent owner/GM to destabilize their own salary cap structure by overpaying RFAs at their own peril.

Top of my head I can name dozens of ufa contracts that have blown up in teams faces, I'm hard pressed to name many RFA deals that have become disasters. Matt Read maybe. Cowen after his injuries.

I would much rather my team betting on 22 year olds entering their primes, then 29 year olds.

If you don't agree, I can't really see you convincing me otherwise, so we might as well do the old agree to disagree.
 

Superstar

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Top of my head I can name dozens of ufa contracts that have blown up in teams faces, I'm hard pressed to name many RFA deals that have become disasters. Matt Read maybe. Cowen after his injuries.

I would much rather my team betting on 22 year olds entering their primes, then 29 year olds.

If you don't agree, I can't really see you convincing me otherwise, so we might as well do the old agree to disagree.

RFA deals usually don't become disastrous unless teams that have control over their RFAs overpay them, and most of them don't, so you rarely see them - that's the whole point of having controllable assets.

Betting on RFAs and overpaying them are not the same thing: By locking up an RFA to long-term 8 year deals (after only playing in the league for 2 to 3 years) is in effect betting on them. In contrast, that's why there are shorter term bridged-deals also for RFAs because those teams aren't so confident in betting on them long term just yet; it's also a way for RFAs to bet on themselves and prove their worth.

By nature of their UFA status, UFAs are inclined to be overpaid because that's usually market driven as their status allows other teams to bid on their services, basic supply and demand principles, thus there's less control over their salaries unlike RFAs. Teams certainly have a choice to not sign overpriced UFAs; obviously there's a level of homework and thought required in making those decisions, and weighing risks is one of them. Unlike UFA contracts, it's essential for RFA contracts to not be over-inflated because they allow the teams that still have some control over these salaries to mitigate their risk of investment.

I'm not convinced by your arguments either, so yeah, I agree to disagree.
 
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Superstar

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It's a business, these guys aren't only setting themselves up for life, but if they play their cards right their kids (when they have them) will never have to worry about $$ either.
Taking $1.5 to $2.5m less a year adds up over time. Especially considering the $$ that's going to end in D. Katz pocket from having McDavid in blue and orange. It's easy to say guys should just leave $20m or so on the table for the good of the team, but this isn't a video game, and that's alot of $$.
Part of me still holds out hope that our big 3 will sign for team friendly deals, but I'm certainly not going to hold it against them if they can get they get as much as they can.
Like it or not this is the way RFA deals are trending. These guys are among the best players in the league today, and will very likely be top 5/10 players for the majority of their contracts, so they are being paid that way. I still think Eichel will be in the convo with McDavid and Matthews when Buffalo gets their **** together. His contract won't look as outrageous in a few years. If you look past the injuries and attitude, he's actually had two pretty dominate seasons.

RFA contracts getting to this point and salary cap in general (see Daisy's comments above) is another discussion (a fairly pointless one, seeing this is the reality now).

I didn't address this part of the discussion earlier, so I'm coming back to it now.

It's not so simple as "it's a business...": Capitalistic free-for-all can't flourish in a salary cap system - it's the reason why the salary cap was implemented, parity for all teams, which has a trickling effect to player salaries. RFA contracts within the confines of a salary cap system is not a pointless discussion at all, it's an extremely important one, and by no means do I think it's a forgone conclusion that RFA salaries will continue to inflate unreasonably because of McDavid's and Eichel's salaries...they are the exceptions rather than the norm, and their teams' ownership/management groups are responsible for that.

I'm fairly confident that we'll get good, team friendly deals for our big 3.
 

93LEAFS

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Top of my head I can name dozens of ufa contracts that have blown up in teams faces, I'm hard pressed to name many RFA deals that have become disasters. Matt Read maybe. Cowen after his injuries.

I would much rather my team betting on 22 year olds entering their primes, then 29 year olds.

If you don't agree, I can't really see you convincing me otherwise, so we might as well do the old agree to disagree.
Rick Dipietro. But, that was such an unconventional deal that it is not really a good discussion point. But that deal is one of the deals that went the most south in recent memory.

Cody Hodgson's deal went south. Generally, it is a result of injuries.
 
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phillipmike

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I bit my tongue in the trade rumors board but i think that Henrique deal is pretty bad. Almost 6M for a 50 point centre with average to below average possession numbers and loses more draws than he wins and it isnt a FA deal it is a re-signing. I get that centres are valued but i think that is a pretty bad deal. Bozak at 5M for 3 years is much better than that - add Stastny too.

Maybe i dont know a lot about him but is he defensive wizard?
 

Cor

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I bit my tongue in the trade rumors board but i think that Henrique deal is pretty bad. Almost 6M for a 50 point centre with average to below average possession numbers and loses more draws than he wins and it isnt a FA deal it is a re-signing. I get that centres are valued but i think that is a pretty bad deal. Bozak at 5M for 3 years is much better than that - add Stastny too.

Maybe i dont know a lot about him but is he defensive wizard?

Nazem Kadri signed his deal of 4.5M when the cap was 73M, a percentage of 6.16%

Adam Henrique signed his deal of 5.885M, with a projected cap for next season of 83M, a percenatge of 7.09%

When you consider Nazem Kadri was an RFA when he signed, it is actually a very similar deal.

So not bad for a 2C.
 

Superstar

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Rick Dipietro. But, that was such an unconventional deal that it is not really a good discussion point. But that deal is one of the deals that went the most south in recent memory.

Cody Hodgson's deal went south. Generally, it is a result of injuries.

Yeah, that DiPietro was a really strange one...it's like he doesn't even need to try to play hockey anymore with the brink truck unloading all that cash at his door.
 

Superstar

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Maybe the key to cheap RFA's is after the ELC period, you have a second contract that has a max. 4-5 year term limit before UFA status kicks in and you can cap that second contract dollar amount at something like $7.5 million. That way there's a fee structure to the first 7 years, then it's open season.

Or maybe you get a cap break for bigger salaries of home grown talent?

Those are some interesting ideas and with some tweaks, they wouldn't be unreasonable...but it's like trying to close the pandora's box that will likely cause a lockout if owners try to push for anything close to your suggestions, not that they are not good. It does beg the question why the NHL doesn't have tighter controls that MLB has for teams over RFAs, despite MLB not having the kind of hard cap the NHL has.
 

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I know I’m a little late on this, but does anyone else think D.Hamilton was overrated to hell and Hanifin/Lindholm are phenomenal acquisitions for him?

I have no idea what Carolina was thinking here.
 

BertCorbeau

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I know I’m a little late on this, but does anyone else think D.Hamilton was overrated to hell and Hanifin/Lindholm are phenomenal acquisitions for him?

I have no idea what Carolina was thinking here.

Agreed to an extent. I’m not super high on Hamilton myself, and am a bit puzzled why Carolina would move Hanifin so soon.

I think Calgary did well to get two young, controlled pieces that could pan out to be a good top 4 d-man and a quality top 6 scoring winger (maybe centre). And I’m not sure how much of an upgrade Hamilton is to Faulk.

And at the end of the day, Carolina has great defensive depth. So moving even in moving Hanifin, and Lindholm, arguably their best trade chips they failed to bring in a legit centre they need.

In other words I see it as a lateral move.
 

member 147413

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Agreed to an extent. I’m not super high on Hamilton myself, and am a bit puzzled why Carolina would move Hanifin so soon.

I think Calgary did well to get two young, controlled pieces that could pan out to be a good top 4 d-man and a quality top 6 scoring winger (maybe centre). And I’m not sure how much of an upgrade Hamilton is to Faulk.

And at the end of the day, Carolina has great defensive depth. So moving even in moving Hanifin, and Lindholm, arguably their best trade chips they failed to bring in a legit centre they need.

In other words I see it as a lateral move.
You summed up my feelings pretty well.

Hanifin could have been moved for a quality young center on his own. Yet they add Lindholm to him for a marginal D upgrade? A lateral move in which Carolina lost value.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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You summed up my feelings pretty well.

Hanifin could have been moved for a quality young center on his own. Yet they add Lindholm to him for a marginal D upgrade? A lateral move in which Carolina lost value.

I think it's a few things.
1) These are 2 guys, while still young, that have not lived up to their draft position at this point and were likely going to ask for long term deals/big contracts. Canes probably didn't want to give them those deals at this time.
2) Canes were looking to change the culture of the team. Not saying this is the RIGHT move, but Skinner, Faulk, Lindholm and Hanifin (and maybe Rask, but he has less value)were guys we thought they'd possible move.
3) Nobody was trading a quality young center at this point in time for Hanifin. Maybe down the road if/when Hanifin continues to develop (and I think he will), but not right now. Also, with Necas joining the team this year and Aho likely switching to center, they may have figured there is not a dire need for a young center.

Long term, this could backfire for Carolina if both Lindholm and Hanifin develop to their max potential, but that's a risk also. If Hamilton continues to be a 50 point defenseman and Ferland puts up 20G while playing a more physical game and they are able to sign Fox, then it could be more beneficial to Carolina.

The defense, with Slavin-Pesce, CDH-Hamilton, Fleury/TVR/Faulk is most definitely much better (on paper) than it was last year.
 

Barilko14

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The follow up trade will determine how well Carolina did in this trade imo.
If they can flip Faulk or Skinner or both for an ugrade at C then I think it works out for them.
Hamilton in a "Brent Burns" role, still paired with a solid Dman in De Haan could be an absolute force, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 60+ pt dmen consistently.
If they can't fill that gap a C, then I agree it's not a great move.

I like the move from a Flames perspective.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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The follow up trade will determine how well Carolina did in this trade imo.
If they can flip Faulk or Skinner or both for an ugrade at C then I think it works out for them.
Hamilton in a "Brent Burns" role, still paired with a solid Dman in De Haan could be an absolute force, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 60+ pt dmen consistently.
If they can't fill that gap a C, then I agree it's not a great move.

I like the move from a Flames perspective.

That may be right. There are a couple of things I like and don't like about the deal.

Like:
1) Even with his warts, Hamilton improves this D. A defense of Slavin, Pesce, CDH, Hamilton, Fleury, TVR should be much better than last year's D.
2) Hamilton on the PP should be >>> Faulk on the PP. Faulk has a great shot, but isn't a PP QB by any means.
3) Ferland brings an element the Canes lack.
4) Fox is a legit D prospect who looked exceptional in our rookie camp.

Don't like:
1) Ferland is a UFA in a year and last year was a career high for the guy.
2) Hamilton is in his prime, so if the Canes don't compete this year and next, they are wasting his prime.
3) There are rumors Fox isnt' going to sign, but he said at the Camp he would sign if he thinks he can make the team.
4) Canes are giving up the younger players for more established players. Maybe that's ok because they will likely be the youngest team in the league, but still, it's a risk.

I know people say "Canes didn't get a C", but getting a young center with 1C potential rarely happens. Necas and Aho have more chance of becoming that than anyone else they would have traded for.
 
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