Around the League: 2019 Offseason || Part 2

[Jay Cee]

Gillis looked good back then. He has added one chin at least since.

 

[4Twenty]

Him staying healthy is a concern. It's also a concern for Edler, Tanev, Sutter, Baertschi, Boeser, Pettersson, Roussel, Myers, Virtanen etc... There aren't that many guys where you feel confident they won't get hurt. Even then, Brandon Sutter was one of the most durable players in the NHL when we traded for him and he's missed a ton of time since. Injuries are commonplace among guys that have a decent amount of pro experience.

As to your 2nd point, Ferland apparently dressed for like 10 games where he ended up pulling himself out because he wasn't good to go once the game was underway. If that is accurate, his PPG on the season is that much more impressive. And he scored at a 46 point pace without even taking that into account. Dressing and leaving the game could also help explain his falling production late in the year where he battled injury.

Ferland's durability will always be the biggest question mark with him. I would be more worried about it if the Canucks still had the dearth of wingers we saw the last few years. Going into this season there are 5 left wingers I don't think would look out of place on a 2nd line. Miller, Ferland, Pearson, Baertschi and Roussel. That makes it less of an issue IMO.

That information was easy enough to look up. You're operating on premise he pulled himself out of a bunch of games when it didn't really happen. He had a 5 shift game and a 13 shift game, every thing else is around 18-23 shifts.

The team just starting using him less in a prime role, since they upgraded his position with Nino Niederreiter.

 

[StreetHawk]

"Nostalgic bias"

Been 5 years since he was let go and no other team has hired him.

And he had a connection to victor de bonis in Seattle yet the gm role appears to be going to Francis.

If he doesn’t land in Seattle I don’t see him getting back into the nhl at this point.

 

[4Twenty]

Been 5 years since he was let go and no other team has hired him.

And he had a connection to victor de bonis in Seattle yet the gm role appears to be going to Francis.

If he doesn’t land in Seattle I don’t see him getting back into the nhl at this point.

Don't think he's interviewed in any position. He seems set on living in the PNW. I don't think he's interested in just any GM job, he's been very specific.

I can't see him putting his name in for any positions that aren't optimal for him and his family and why would he? Seems to be content in his life as it is.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Going off topic but the names that went through the Leafs during that period was just insane. If you were to make a pointless exercise of which teams roster from a season would be the best if everyone on it was in their prime I think one of these Leaf teams would take it. Not the Lindros Leafs because it was lacking dmen, but just the season before the 03-04 Leafs roster would be:

G.Roberts-J.Nieuwendyk-A.Moginly
R.Reichel-R.Francis-O.Nolan
D.Tucker-M.Sundin-M.Renberg
A.Ponikarovsky-N.Antropov-T.Domi

B.Leetch-C.Johansson
B.McCabe-T.Kaberle
B.Marchment-K.Klee

E.Belfour
T.Kidd

M.Stajan, T.Fitzgerald. D.Berehowsky

Barring someone taking a stance of 'this team had Gretzky/Lemieux so they win automatically' it would be hard to find a better or more complete 'prime' team than that.

I'd say the "let's throw money at everyone" Rangers of 01-02 would be up there.

 

[Krnuckfan]

Vanek ?? lol 4 months of a guy good in 1 zone?

And just what position do you think were in. Horvat will be 25 by the end of next season? How long should you wait to make some moves to get better

Teams pay 1st rounders for rentals. If it isn't a lottery pick and Miller can provide 20 goals and 50pts avg its a win.

Name another instance where a team that is perennially in the basement traded away their first round pick.

 

[Hodgy]

Benning targets specific players with specific traits he wants. He usually is willing to meet or exceed the market to get the Target.

He's not shopping for a deal playing moneypuck....he has a cap owner and wants what he wants........not a ****ing 40"tv when he wants a 55 for his specific space above his fireplace.

The problem is he is always exceeding the market due to his rigid targeting of players. This only works if a player truly is a unique player in a class of players and that player will make a a larger impact on the Canucks than other players in the class. This just hasn’t been the case though, so he ends up overpaying for players when he could have signed other players for less money that would have made a similar impact.

This all seems painfully obvious to me and is backed up by a mountain full of evidence. How else could anyone explain the Roussel and Beagle contracts which were essentially unprecedented in their terms for players in that class.

 

[4Twenty]

Name another instance where a team that is perennially in the basement traded away their first round pick.

After an 81 point season Toronto traded two 1sts for Phil Kessel.

Funny that this fanbase used to kick the crap out of the Leafs management who did that when their team wasn't ready for a move like that, but now they're all in on it.

There are a few other cases of non-playoff teams making these types of moves over the past 10-12 years and none of them look good in hindsight.

Horvat for Schneider.

Islanders acquired Vanek after a 79 point season, got nowhere.

Carolina acquired Jordan Staal, didn't make playoffs for 6-7 more years.

Colorado acquired Varlamov, did jack with him.

Columbus on two separate occasions did it with Jeff Carter (were worst team following year) and Adam Foote - got nothing out of it.

It's not a smart endeavour for bad teams to do this.

 

[sting101]

Name another instance where a team that is perennially in the basement traded away their first round pick.

Flames 2015 after missing 5 strait seasons and one playoff birth surrendered the 15th pick (Senyshyn) plus 2 2nds for D.Hamilton
Carolina in 2012 after missing 5 of 6 yrs surrendered Dumoulin Sutter and the 8OA (Pouliot) for J.Staal.
Colorado after missing the 2nd straight year and 4th in 6yrs traded the 11OA (F.Forsberg) and a 2nd for S.Varlamov
Columbus in 2011 after missing the 2nd straight yr and 9 of the last 10 dealt 8OA (Couturier) Voracek for J.Carter and a 3rd
Arizona traded the 7OA(Andersson) and DeAngelo for Stepan and Raanta in 2017. missed 5 straight years leading up to the deal

Thats just from teams Ana-Fla and from the last 10yrs....i'm sure there is more examples

 

[4Twenty]

Flames 2015 after missing 5 strait seasons and one playoff birth surrendered the 15th pick (Senyshyn) plus 2 2nds for D.Hamilton
Carolina in 2012 after missing 5 of 6 yrs surrendered Dumoulin Sutter and the 8OA (Pouliot) for J.Staal.
Colorado after missing the 2nd straight year and 4th in 6yrs traded the 11OA (F.Forsberg) and a 2nd for S.Varlamov
Columbus in 2011 after missing the 2nd straight yr and 9 of the last 10 dealt 8OA (Couturier) Voracek for J.Carter and a 3rd
Arizona traded the 7OA(Andersson) and DeAngelo for Stepan and Raanta in 2017. missed 5 straight years leading up to the deal

Thats just from teams Ana-Fla and from the last 10yrs....i'm sure there is more examples

And none of those moves looks like it was worth it, do they?

Doesn't really make sense for the Calgary one either, considering they made that trade as a sitting playoff team. Like it may have made more sense for the Canucks to do that heading into 20/21 if they make the playoff in 19/20. They're short cutting and the list above shows how unlikely it is for the teams making those moves to have quick turnarounds.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Been 5 years since he was let go and no other team has hired him.

And he had a connection to victor de bonis in Seattle yet the gm role appears to be going to Francis.

If he doesn’t land in Seattle I don’t see him getting back into the nhl at this point.

Brian Burke stated a few months ago that Gillis was never a candidate for the Seattle GM...

 

[EpochLink]

Brian Burke stated a few months ago that Gillis was never a candidate for the Seattle GM...

Could’ve fooled me, this board and some posters were up in arms that Gillis was a sure fire lock for the GM spot in Seattle.

With the reports of Ron Francis going there, someone with NHL ‘old boys club’ street cred...it’s the safe hire.

 

[sting101]

The problem is he is always exceeding the market due to his rigid targeting of players. This only works if a player truly is a unique player in a class of players and that player will make a a larger impact on the Canucks than other players in the class. This just hasn’t been the case though, so he ends up overpaying for players when he could have signed other players for less money that would have made a similar impact.

This all seems painfully obvious to me and is backed up by a mountain full of evidence. How else could anyone explain the Roussel and Beagle contracts which were essentially unprecedented in their terms for players in that class.

No it works if it doesn't mess your cap structure and the player is a good fit who plays reasonably in relation to his salary

If your looking for some sandpaper to play in your top9 whats the point in signing a soft scorer and of course your assuming that all these players you think are gonna be available will be and want to sign in Vancouver. Sure you might get some bargains if patient but you also might have missed the boat and are left empty handed and looking like a fool when your core needs some help. Both methods come with risk but at least in being aggressive you csn get the player you desire.

Ultimately just target good players who wont be negative value contracts. Adding some free agents to fill roster needs is just fine but without a quality core it's never gonna work out well.

 

[sting101]

And none of those moves looks like it was worth it, do they?

Doesn't really make sense for the Calgary one either, considering they made that trade as a sitting playoff team. Like it may have made more sense for the Canucks to do that heading into 20/21 if they make the playoff in 19/20. They're short cutting and the list above shows how unlikely it is for the teams making those moves to have quick turnarounds.

If its as high as those picks then for sure it's not worth it. I've said it all along....JT miller for a 15-20 1st round pick is solid based on percentages (if he performs as he has.)

 

[Hodgy]

No it works if it doesn't mess your cap structure and the player is a good fit who plays reasonably in relation to his salary

If your looking for some sandpaper to play in your top9 whats the point in signing a soft scorer and of course your assuming that all these players you think are gonna be available will be and want to sign in Vancouver. Sure you might get some bargains if patient but you also might have missed the boat and are left empty handed and looking like a fool when your core needs some help. Both methods come with risk but at least in being aggressive you csn get the player you desire.

Ultimately just target good players who wont be negative value contracts. Adding some free agents to fill roster needs is just fine but without a quality core it's never gonna work out well.

How are you not able to see that the Jim Benning's process is not achieving this? Clearly the evidence backs my criticism.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

"Nostalgic bias"

Last time I checked it is 2019 now
That is 8 years from 2011

 

[4Twenty]

If its as high as those picks then for sure it's not worth it. I've said it all along....JT miller for a 15-20 1st round pick is solid based on percentages (if he performs as he has.)

And I've disagreed with you all along, because JT Miller putting up points while being first round fodder at best is a lost opportunity to accrue a younger long term asset. The playoffs is not the end goal.

Hell even if it's 16th overall, you just traded the opportunity to add 17 year old JT Miller to your system. A 1st round pick between 16-31 is still a very good place to be....it could be Boeser, Pastrnak, Konecny, McCann, Theodore, Mantha, Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Hertl, Teravainen, Vasilevski etc etc etc.

You want to keep accumulating these types of assets until your team is better situated to push their chips in....these Canucks are not in that position IMO.

 

[sting101]

How are you not able to see that the Jim Benning's process is not achieving this? Clearly the evidence backs my criticism.

So your argument boils down to Benning is bad. Should target discounts and elite players only?

i thought we were disagreeing on the process not Bennings ability to manage.....which by the way your suggestion is just as risky as not liking and zeroing in on what you deem to be the best fit before someone else does.

I dont have a problem with the process at all. He has a core now and those very young kids need good support players to be competitive. In 4-5yrs all these deals we be over and if Boeser Pettersson Horvat Hughes can be elite performers then a Hossa or Chara type will want to join to try and win. If he just keeps waiting for 1st rounders the whole winning thing might just turn to discontent and players wanting a chance to win elsewhere. It's not an easy decision but you have to have some balls and take some risks rather than sitting by idly and wasting good players years. Outside of Beagles horrible contract we have some high character solid additions in the last 2 off seasons compiled with Pearson Miller and Leivo via trade

 

[sting101]

And I've disagreed with you all along, because JT Miller putting up points while being first round fodder at best is a lost opportunity to accrue a younger long term asset. The playoffs is not the end goal.

Hell even if it's 16th overall, you just traded the opportunity to add 17 year old JT Miller to your system. A 1st round pick between 16-31 is still a very good place to be....it could be Boeser, Pastrnak, Konecny, McCann, Theodore, Mantha, Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Hertl, Teravainen, Vasilevski etc etc etc.

You want to keep accumulating these types of assets until your team is better situated to push their chips in....these Canucks are not in that position IMO.

it's a risky deal no doubt. Not one i would have done given the potential to backfire. Miller's only 26 so i dont have an issue and whats with the fodder comment? Solid player solid contract and extremely solid pick given his draft position. The odds of your list are not in your favor..its a lot more likely you wait 4-5yrs to relize your pick is not gonna help you much if at all.

 

[Derp Kassian]

Gillis wants a president role but to be involved like an Yzerman, he'll go wherever Gilman becomes GM.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So your argument boils down to Benning is bad. Should target discounts and elite players only?

i thought we were disagreeing on the process not Bennings ability to manage.....which by the way your suggestion is just as risky as not liking and zeroing in on what you deem to be the best fit before someone else does.

I dont have a problem with the process at all. He has a core now and those very young kids need good support players to be competitive. In 4-5yrs all these deals we be over and if Boeser Pettersson Horvat Hughes can be elite performers then a Hossa or Chara type will want to join to try and win. If he just keeps waiting for 1st rounders the whole winning thing might just turn to discontent and players wanting a chance to win elsewhere. It's not an easy decision but you have to have some balls and take some risks rather than sitting by idly and wasting good players years. Outside of Beagles horrible contract we have some high character solid additions in the last 2 off seasons compiled with Pearson Miller and Leivo via trade

This seems like what the Jets GM is currently being criticized for...

 

[4Twenty]

it's a risky deal no doubt. Not one i would have done given the potential to backfire. Miller's only 26 so i dont have an issue and whats with the fodder comment? Solid player solid contract and extremely solid pick given his draft position. The odds of your list are not in your favor..its a lot more likely you wait 4-5yrs to relize your pick is not gonna help you much if at all.

Miller putting up 50 points AND THE TEAM being first round playoff fodder is what I was saying.

I would rather have a pick in 15-20 range in the next two years than one trip to the playoffs to get knocked out in the first round. Why are you assuming that those first round picks are going to bust? Is it really true that first round picks between 15-31 are more than likely never going to work?

I want the team to be a cup contender at some point, not just good enough to get in to the playoffs. The team has to have considerable playoff success for the juice to be worth the squeeze on trading a 1st for Miller, and if they don't make them.....it's awful.

 

[Hoghandler]

I would rather have a pick in 15-20 range in the next two years than one trip to the playoffs to get knocked out in the first round. Why are you assuming that those first round picks are going to bust?

Why are we assuming the team loses in the 1st round?

What if we go on a nice little run, it helps attract a free agent like Tyson Barrie this summer and gets our Russians pumped up to come over and play on a quality team the following year?

For the record I don't think it was a deal they should have made. But there are potential upsides here that not many people are noticing. How this franchise is viewed outside Vancouver can impact the ability to put a quality team on the ice. Players love winning - and Canadian markets need all the help they can get in attracting talent.

 

[4Twenty]

Why are we assuming the team loses in the 1st round?

What if we go on a nice little run, it helps attract a free agent like Tyson Barrie this summer and gets our Russians pumped up to come over and play on a quality team the following year?

For the record I don't think it was a deal they should have made. But there are potential upsides here that not many people are noticing. How this franchise is viewed outside Vancouver can impact the ability to put a quality team on the ice. Players love winning - and Canadian markets need all the help they can get in attracting talent.

Because they've accumulated 1 more point than the worst team in the NHL over the past 4 seasons, and actually won less games in regulation this past season than they did the year prior. Had Jacob Markstrom not put up .930 level netminding for 3 months, and just performed at his season avg, this team is way closer to the bottom than the wild card.

At least I assumed they were first round fodder in that post, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they end up missing the playoffs both years. It generally takes 94-96 points to get in, maybe they get there...but I wouldn't bet on it.

Tyson Barrie apparently already wants to play here, close to home and he knows these guys pay. I don't think trading your first is a requirement to attract free agents anyways.

 

[Hoghandler]

Because they've accumulated 1 more point than the worst team in the NHL over the past 4 seasons, and actually won less games in regulation this past season than they did the year prior.

Tyson Barrie apparently already wants to play here, close to home and he knows these guys pay. I don't think trading your first is a requirement to attract free agents anyways.

What happened 3-4 years ago really has no bearing on next years team though. There are 4 skaters on the roster that played on the team 4 years ago. 5 from the team 3 years ago. There has been a ton of turnover in recent years.

Trading your 1st isn't a requirement to attract free agents, but winning certainly helps. If the Canucks lay an egg and negative media follows this team around next season I would be surprised if Barrie wants to be a part of that going forward. If the team makes the playoffs however, it could help lure him back home.

No team that makes the playoffs in today's day and age is 1st round fodder IMO. Too much parity. A hot goaltender alone can win you a 7 game series. Just get in and anything can happen.