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Maukkis

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I think the difference between Hoffman and Boedker is being a little exaggerated and Bergman is still a legit prospect, though not a great one. All SJS got was a 4th, a 5th and a next year 2nd. Nothing to get too excited about there.
Boedker is good for 30-40 points in a full season, which is quite mediocre. Hoffman, on the other hand, is a 25-goal, 60-point guy. If you consider the picks and prospects a wash (at most a slight win for Ottawa), that deal is disgusting for the Senators, even considering the GF situation. The Sharks, on the other hand, cleared cap room, acquired two picks and upgraded another two by simply being the middle man. Florida also did really well to get said top line winger without giving up anything that would really have hurt them in the long run.

People do tend to miss the fact that Ottawa has to ice a lineup next year, but even still, you don't trade a Hoffman to acquire warm bodies, do you?
 

Gm0ney

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Oct 12, 2011
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SJ benefited, Ottawa got rid of their problem, Florida got a good player
Nothing's perfect, but it's not a bad set of trades
Yes, Florida's replaced over 40% of Marchessault + Smith's production for a handful magic beans. Not as good as hanging onto them in the first place, but it's a step in the right direction!

San Jose clearing space to go hard after Tavares I guess? I hope Tavares does the Mike Richards show-me-the-money tour and creates a bidding war that ultimately hurts the team that acquires him far more than he helps them.

Edit: I meant the Brad Richards Show Me the Money tour...
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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Boedker is good for 30-40 points in a full season, which is quite mediocre. Hoffman, on the other hand, is a 25-goal, 60-point guy. If you consider the picks and prospects a wash (at most a slight win for Ottawa), that deal is disgusting for the Senators, even considering the GF situation. The Sharks, on the other hand, cleared cap room, acquired two picks and upgraded another two by simply being the middle man. Florida also did really well to get said top line winger without giving up anything that would really have hurt them in the long run.

People do tend to miss the fact that Ottawa has to ice a lineup next year, but even still, you don't trade a Hoffman to acquire warm bodies, do you?

I think you are massively overvaluing those picks. None of them is high enough to have a great deal of value.

As I said before, you are also exaggerating the difference between Hoffman and Boedker. Look at their es pts/60. I think it was Whileee who posted those numbers just a little way back. Not saying that Boedker = Hoffman, but the difference is not as much as you suggest. If we look only at last year it was 15 goals from Boedker vs 22 from Hoffman. 7 goals. Just not that much.

Then consider Sens need to move Hoffman. You know every GM in the league would try to take advantage.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Not exactly around the league but what gives with EliteProspects? They have added a premium subscription only site. They say their DB will not be behind the paywall but I can't find any way to it that doesn't go through the subscription path. Not a cheap subscription either.
 

SLAYER

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Oct 26, 2012
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Ottawa also gained cap and even more actual salary. Considering that they had to move Hoffman, I think they did OK. SJS shifted Boedker's contract for some late picks. Meh.

Still like the move better for SJS than OTT, I think they gained more from it. I stand by my point.
 

Maukkis

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I think you are massively overvaluing those picks. None of them is high enough to have a great deal of value.

As I said before, you are also exaggerating the difference between Hoffman and Boedker. Look at their es pts/60. I think it was Whileee who posted those numbers just a little way back. Not saying that Boedker = Hoffman, but the difference is not as much as you suggest. If we look only at last year it was 15 goals from Boedker vs 22 from Hoffman. 7 goals. Just not that much.

Then consider Sens need to move Hoffman. You know every GM in the league would try to take advantage.
And by making the sample size larger, i.e. not limiting Hoffman's sample size to one putrid year with the bottom-of-the-barrel Sens, the numbers show that Hoffman's primary point production is at a first-line level, whereas Boedker is more of a high-end third liner. (see McCurdy's Twitter for charts, would post them here if my Internet connection wasn't as bad as the Avs of last year) Hoffman also has a positive impact on his team's shot rates, which is not the case with Boedker.

As for the picks, they are valuable, and certainly more valuable than Boedker is. Even more value is in the cap space San Jose opened up by doing these deals, which is what baffles me; on top of giving Hoffman away for mediocre pieces, Ottawa literally got nothing for helping San Jose out with their cap situation either.

It was evident that Hoffman's value had tanked by the time this deal went through, but come on. There has to be a team who could have given them something worthwhile for a top line winger. Even if you just asked for futures and nothing else, most packagea would have beat Boedker.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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And by making the sample size larger, i.e. not limiting Hoffman's sample size to one putrid year with the bottom-of-the-barrel Sens, the numbers show that Hoffman's primary point production is at a first-line level, whereas Boedker is more of a high-end third liner. (see McCurdy's Twitter for charts, would post them here if my Internet connection wasn't as bad as the Avs of last year) Hoffman also has a positive impact on his team's shot rates, which is not the case with Boedker.

As for the picks, they are valuable, and certainly more valuable than Boedker is. Even more value is in the cap space San Jose opened up by doing these deals, which is what baffles me; on top of giving Hoffman away for mediocre pieces, Ottawa literally got nothing for helping San Jose out with their cap situation either.

It was evident that Hoffman's value had tanked by the time this deal went through, but come on. There has to be a team who could have given them something worthwhile for a top line winger. Even if you just asked for futures and nothing else, most packagea would have beat Boedker.

Clearly Hoffman is worth more than Boedker if side issues didn't exist. No one is disputing that. But they do exist. His value has tanked.

What are the odds of those picks ever yielding an NHL player of any kind? I don't agree they are more than Boedker. Bergman is probably worth the 2nd so you are left with a 4th and a 5th. That does not add up to much at all. If there is a clear winner here it is Florida.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Still like the move better for SJS than OTT, I think they gained more from it. I stand by my point.

It was inevitable that Ott would trade Hoffman at a loss. I don't think anybody would make the argument that Ott won the trade. But under the circumstances it was probably a good result for them.
 

JetsFan815

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What an awful awful trade from the Sens perspective. Boedker was a potential buyout candidate.

It is also now borderline irresponsible for the Sens to defer the pick they need to hand over to Colorado until next year. They just need to but the bullet and give up that 1st this year to at the very least save their fans the angst all next season and allow people to move on.

I don't understand how anyone can still be a Sens fan under the current leadership. It's basically masochism at this point.
 
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JetsFan815

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Clearly Hoffman is worth more than Boedker if side issues didn't exist. No one is disputing that. But they do exist. His value has tanked.

What are the odds of those picks ever yielding an NHL player of any kind? I don't agree they are more than Boedker. Bergman is probably worth the 2nd so you are left with a 4th and a 5th. That does not add up to much at all. If there is a clear winner here it is Florida.
Boedker is not just a downgrade on Hoffman, Sharks fans were musing him being a buyout candidate. The trade has no upside for Sens that a trade for picks would have had even if they were 2nd round or later. Boedker doesn't move the needle for them on the ice nor does the trade get them any future assets. Atleast a trade for picks could have been sold as "for the future", even if those picks were crap.
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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Boedker is not just a downgrade on Hoffman, Sharks fans were musing him being a buyout candidate. The trade has no upside for Sens that a trade for picks would have had even if they were 2nd round or later. Boedker doesn't move the needle for them on the ice nor does the trade get them any future assets. Atleast a trade for picks could have been sold as "for the future", even if those picks were crap.

I'm aware of how unhappy Sharks fans were with Boedker. But the late picks SJS got for Hoffman don't add up to much either. Sens fans have to hope Boedker rebounds. They were not getting much for Hoffman under these circumstances.

Look realistically at what SJS got. A 4th, a 5th and a 2nd .... in 2 years. Not much more than the proverbial bag of pucks.
 

bumblebeeman

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I'm aware of how unhappy Sharks fans were with Boedker. But the late picks SJS got for Hoffman don't add up to much either. Sens fans have to hope Boedker rebounds. They were not getting much for Hoffman under these circumstances.

Look realistically at what SJS got. A 4th, a 5th and a 2nd .... in 2 years. Not much more than the proverbial bag of pucks.

I'm with you on this one. I think the difference between Boedker and the prospect vs a 2nd, 4th and 5th round picks isn't that big. Seems like a potentially good deal for all 3 teams.
 
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nobody imp0rtant

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“We did our homework and we discussed it with a lot of people and we feel that’s in the past,” Tallon said. “We’re very confident that he’ll be embraced by our team and their wives and girlfriends".

Uh, Dale? For the record, "he" wasn't the problem. Stay tuned for the Real Housewives of Broward County. :popcorn:
 

JetsFan815

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I'm aware of how unhappy Sharks fans were with Boedker. But the late picks SJS got for Hoffman don't add up to much either. Sens fans have to hope Boedker rebounds. They were not getting much for Hoffman under these circumstances.

Look realistically at what SJS got. A 4th, a 5th and a 2nd .... in 2 years. Not much more than the proverbial bag of pucks.

A 2nd 4th and 5th is almost certainly better than Boedker and the return they got. That is not even counting the opportunity cost of that 4 million in capspace that they gave up in the trade. That capspace could have been used to acquire more assets for a rebuild. Esp important since they are a budget team and cannot spend beyond a certain point to take on bad contacts for assets. In essence the Sens paid to give up Hoffman in draft picks and capspace. That is a bad deal even for a player whose value was as low as Hoffman's.
 
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DRW204

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A 2nd 4th and 5th is almost certainly better than Boedker and the return they got. That is not even counting the opportunity cost of that 4 million in capspace that they gave up in the trade. That capspace could have been used to acquire more assets for a rebuild. Esp important since they are a budget team and cannot spend beyond a certain point to take on bad contacts for assets. In essence the Sens paid to give up Hoffman in draft picks and capspace. That is a bad deal even for a player whose value was as low as Hoffman's.

I think SJS could have gotten more for Hoffman, but who really knows...His value has tanked and it really is murky. SJS got what they wanted, cap space to go after John Tavares. They brokered a deal for FLA and got rid of a contract and some picks for their services. Wilson could have played hardball and asked for a larger return than what he got but as mentioned before, who really knows. Hoffman's value was questionable
 

Maukkis

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Clearly Hoffman is worth more than Boedker if side issues didn't exist. No one is disputing that. But they do exist. His value has tanked.

What are the odds of those picks ever yielding an NHL player of any kind? I don't agree they are more than Boedker. Bergman is probably worth the 2nd so you are left with a 4th and a 5th. That does not add up to much at all. If there is a clear winner here it is Florida.
San Jose and Florida were the clear winners. Florida got a great player for a cheap price, whereas San Jose was paid for offloading an unwanted contract, which is a very tough feat in today's NHL.

Ottawa traded away a top line forward for a middle sixer who only carries value to very few teams, a meh prospect and a pick downgrade. There is not a world in which that is anything close to respectable.

This deal gets them nowhere; it isn't for the future, nor does it help them with their draft pick situation next year. It did not even free up much cap space at all (1.2m a year, I think), either. Obviously they were in a no-win situation from the get-go, but you cannot lose a trade in every way possible and be even slightly content with it. Edmonton got a top 4 defenseman in the Hall trade, Colorado killed the Duchene deal after months of speculation... here, Ottawa just f***ing bombed the deal.
 
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Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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Boedker is not just a downgrade on Hoffman, Sharks fans were musing him being a buyout candidate. The trade has no upside for Sens that a trade for picks would have had even if they were 2nd round or later. Boedker doesn't move the needle for them on the ice nor does the trade get them any future assets. Atleast a trade for picks could have been sold as "for the future", even if those picks were crap.
I wasn't really sure what all the hype was about Hoffman, other than his PP production last season. I thought he floated a lot, and was basically looking for his own offense.

Hoffman would rank 10th on the Jets in 5v5 scoring rate (behind Copp and Armia), and was considerably lower than Boedker last season.
 

Whileee

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San Jose and Florida were the clear winners. Florida got a great player for a cheap price, whereas San Jose was paid for offloading an unwanted contract, which is a very tough feat in today's NHL.

Ottawa traded away a top line forward for a middle sixer who only carries value to very few teams, a meh prospect and a pick downgrade. There is not a world in which that is anything close to respectable.

This deal gets them nowhere; it isn't for the future, nor does it help them with their draft pick situation next year. It did not even free up much cap space at all (1.2m a year, I think), either. Obviously they were in a no-win situation from the get-go, but you cannot lose a trade in every way possible and be even slightly content with it. Edmonton got a top 4 defenseman in the Hall trade, Colorado killed the Duchene deal after months of speculation... here, Ottawa just ****ing bombed the deal.
How do you define "great" in the context of Hoffman? 70 ES points in the past two seasons combined.
 

Whileee

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Top line production is pretty great, no?
1.44 points/60 last season (5v5). 10 Jets forwards were better, including Copp and Armia. So was Boedker. How is that "top line production"?

Edit: Hoffman ranked #75 among LW last season in 5v5 points/60 (and #73 in 5v5 goals/60).

He played a lot, and scored a high proportion of his goals and points on the PP.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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A 2nd 4th and 5th is almost certainly better than Boedker and the return they got. That is not even counting the opportunity cost of that 4 million in capspace that they gave up in the trade. That capspace could have been used to acquire more assets for a rebuild. Esp important since they are a budget team and cannot spend beyond a certain point to take on bad contacts for assets. In essence the Sens paid to give up Hoffman in draft picks and capspace. That is a bad deal even for a player whose value was as low as Hoffman's.

The bold just isn't true. Bergman was a 2nd himself and is neither knocking it out of the park nor busting. He looks like a typical second round pick. So from Ottawa's POV, even to that point. The odds are very good that neither the 4th nor the 5th ever play 200 NHL games. Boedker is an NHL player, even if he has declined. Maybe the problem in SJ wasn't Boedker. Maybe he flourishes in Ottawa. But whether he does or not, that package of picks is not much. The 2nd has what? Maybe a 25-30% chance of playing 200 games? I'd say that Boedker has at least a 30% chance of playing 200 more games.

Would Ottawa have done better dealing directly with Florida? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the odds favour that. The cap space is a factor but its value depends on what happens in the future. Ottawa did save some cap and more salary with this deal. They will have to pay 6 mil over 2 years and the cap won't matter if the Sens are not going to spend to the cap anyway, which they likely are not. So Boedker needs only be worth 3 mil per year.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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San Jose and Florida were the clear winners. Florida got a great player for a cheap price, whereas San Jose was paid for offloading an unwanted contract, which is a very tough feat in today's NHL.

Ottawa traded away a top line forward for a middle sixer who only carries value to very few teams, a meh prospect and a pick downgrade. There is not a world in which that is anything close to respectable.

This deal gets them nowhere; it isn't for the future, nor does it help them with their draft pick situation next year. It did not even free up much cap space at all (1.2m a year, I think), either. Obviously they were in a no-win situation from the get-go, but you cannot lose a trade in every way possible and be even slightly content with it. Edmonton got a top 4 defenseman in the Hall trade, Colorado killed the Duchene deal after months of speculation... here, Ottawa just ****ing bombed the deal.

The world in which it is respectable is the world the Sens found themselves in. This was clearly a distress sale. No GM in the league was going to help out the Sens.

This was in no way a hockey trade. Ottawa had no expectation of being a better team after trading Hoffman except for any improvement in the room and any possibility of retaining Karlsson.

You can rip it all you like but what alternative did they have? They couldn't even do the Duchene thing and drag it out. The sooner they moved Hoffman the better.
 

ps241

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“We did our homework and we discussed it with a lot of people and we feel that’s in the past,” Tallon said. “We’re very confident that he’ll be embraced by our team and their wives and girlfriends".

Uh, Dale? For the record, "he" wasn't the problem. Stay tuned for the Real Housewives of Broward County. :popcorn:

No shit.....Dale when you get home your wife should deliver a chair shot to your head WWE style.
 
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