Speculation: Armchair GM Thread II: What did the goalie say to the puck?

[CamPopplestone]

I'm still wanting to consider trading Brodie. I'm scared of what his contract will look like. We have Hanifin - Hamonic, and we can either try Rasmus with Gio, or see if Kylington can do with Gio what Brodie does, and keep Valimaki-Rasmus.

Brodie at the draft would return pretty good with a full year at his cap hit. We can't afford to keep both Brodie and Hamonic. And I think Hamonic signs cheaper to be here.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

The argument to trade Hanifin is essentially the same as the argument to trade Tkachuk. His value is sky-high, so he'd bring back a huge return. It's arguable that all of his success has come down to opportunity to play with other players. He noticeably makes mistakes every game. We have other young guys who can play LW. Compared to moving a Mangiapane or Dube, Tkachuk would get us a way better haul. Trading Tkachuk would also help our cap situation for next year tremendously.

The argument not to trade Hanifin is the same as the argument not to trade Tkachuk.

There are several problems with this argument. The first is that Hanifin has not reached the comparative levels that Tkachuk has. And I don’t think anyone with a straight face could say that Dube or Mangiapane will ever become anything close to the player that Tkachuk is. We also have 7 quality NHL dmen, 4 of them with very high upside that are under the age of 22 years old. We do not have the same depth up front so it’s not really the same, is it? If it was, we wouldn’t be talking about adding Stone. We have no need to add a top 4 dman nor is there any talk of doing so.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I'm still wanting to consider trading Brodie. I'm scared of what his contract will look like.

Uh that's unfounded. Last time we signed Brodie he was having a season almost identical to this one, and his cap hit was extremely team-friendly. He loves it here, we've acquiesced his need to play the right side of the ice by trading Hamilton away, and his skating and non-physical style should allow him to be effective through to 2025 at least.

I look at Treliving's recent talk of Brodie and Hamonic:

FIRESTARTER PODCAST - EPISODE 1 - BRAD TRELIVING

And I see a GM who sees a lot of what I see in both players.

We can keep Brodie and Hamonic. They both want to win and they both want to be here. They're leaders on this team that don't get the same press as the big scorers but are every bit a part of the core that makes us a cup contender.

 

[Sparky93]

There are several problems with this argument. The first is that Hanifin has not reached the comparative levels that Tkachuk has. And I don’t think anyone with a straight face could say that Dube or Mangiapane will ever become anything close to the player that Tkachuk is. We also have 7 quality NHL dmen, 4 of them with very high upside that are under the age of 22 years old. We do not have the same depth up front so it’s not really the same, is it? If it was, we wouldn’t be talking about adding Stone. We have no need to add a top 4 dman nor is there any talk of doing so.

But the goaltending! If we moved both Tkachuk and Hanifin, we’d only have to move Frolik, Stone and one other roster player, in order to get Mark and Quick!

 

[Anglesmith]

There are several problems with this argument. The first is that Hanifin has not reached the comparative levels that Tkachuk has. And I don’t think anyone with a straight face could say that Dube or Mangiapane will ever become anything close to the player that Tkachuk is. We also have 7 quality NHL dmen, 4 of them with very high upside that are under the age of 22 years old. We do not have the same depth up front so it’s not really the same, is it? If it was, we wouldn’t be talking about adding Stone. We have no need to add a top 4 dman nor is there any talk of doing so.

It isn't a problem with the argument if it's difficult to compare Hanifin with Tkachuk, because the point is the principle of trading the highest-value asset instead of the one that best improves the team. The conversation around the Flames has been whether they'll make a trade deadline deal to improve their chances in the playoffs. We have heard tangible rumours and speculation about using forward prospects like Mangiapane and Dube, or defence prospects like Kylington or Valimaki. Your suggestion of upgrading to trading Hanifin instead of those defencemen would be like upgrading to trading Tkachuk instead of those forwards. How does it help the team more right now to trade away a better player, if you can instead package futures? It doesn't, and thus it doesn't make sense.

If the price for guys we want ends up being higher than we are willing to pay in futures, then we should walk away. We shouldn't just switch strategies entirely. The team is on top of the division, and should be looking to buy. Players always talk about the morale boost in the locker room from any kind of buyer trade at the deadline, as a vote of confidence from the front office. A more lateral "hockey" deal, given the current situation of this team, would shake up the dressing room in a way that I'm not sure makes sense, and I don't think would be beneficial. It would show the team that the front office is okay with losing now in hopes of winning in a few years, and it would show that management doesn't really care about the players who got them to this point. And again, it would be entirely different if we weren't in the spot we're in right now.

 

[paine]

Don Maloney is at the Capitals @ Ducks game.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

The argument to trade Hanifin is essentially the same as the argument to trade Tkachuk. His value is sky-high, so he'd bring back a huge return. It's arguable that all of his success has come down to opportunity to play with other players. He noticeably makes mistakes every game. We have other young guys who can play LW. Compared to moving a Mangiapane or Dube, Tkachuk would get us a way better haul. Trading Tkachuk would also help our cap situation for next year tremendously.

The argument not to trade Hanifin is the same as the argument not to trade Tkachuk.

I really don't see the argument for either Tkachuk or Hanifin that success is a result of teammates, at all. Tkachuk took Backund's line and turned it from strict checking line into a top 3 two way line in the league and routinely outscores his linemates at ES. Hanifin has spent basically his entire time with Hamonic, who went from below par to just okay when playing with Brodie, and while historically a good player (ignoring the 2 years prior to coming to Calgary) he's not the kind of guy I would consider able to elevate the play of his partner significantly.

They're both excellent players, with Hanifin on a great contract and Tkachuk one of the most unique, and best, play driving forwards in the league, and trading either of them without being substantially overpaid would be lunacy.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

It isn't a problem with the argument if it's difficult to compare Hanifin with Tkachuk, because the point is the principle of trading the highest-value asset instead of the one that best improves the team. The conversation around the Flames has been whether they'll make a trade deadline deal to improve their chances in the playoffs. We have heard tangible rumours and speculation about using forward prospects like Mangiapane and Dube, or defence prospects like Kylington or Valimaki. Your suggestion of upgrading to trading Hanifin instead of those defencemen would be like upgrading to trading Tkachuk instead of those forwards. How does it help the team more right now to trade away a better player, if you can instead package futures? It doesn't, and thus it doesn't make sense.

If the price for guys we want ends up being higher than we are willing to pay in futures, then we should walk away. We shouldn't just switch strategies entirely. The team is on top of the division, and should be looking to buy. Players always talk about the morale boost in the locker room from any kind of buyer trade at the deadline, as a vote of confidence from the front office. A more lateral "hockey" deal, given the current situation of this team, would shake up the dressing room in a way that I'm not sure makes sense, and I don't think would be beneficial. It would show the team that the front office is okay with losing now in hopes of winning in a few years, and it would show that management doesn't really care about the players who got them to this point. And again, it would be entirely different if we weren't in the spot we're in right now.

I disagree with your first paragraph and fully accept your second one.

The reason I think your Tkachuk comparison is invalid is because frankly we have no need to add a top 4 dman. If there was, maybe Tkachuk’s name would be floated around. For instance, if Karlsson was suddenly available because he wasn’t going to re-sign and the Flames had a need for a dman of that caliber, then that would make sense. You basically illustrated a complete hypothetical scenario to prove a point.

As to your 2nd paragraph, that’s a complete logical reason as to why we shouldn’t do it with regards to moving Hanifin and it’s a damn good explanation. I haven’t stated whether we should or shouldn’t do it one way or another, mostly just that I really want to add Stone because he’s a perfect fit.

My point was there’s no need to throw mud at players on our team when you’re weighing these things out.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

. Your suggestion of upgrading to trading Hanifin instead of those defencemen would be like upgrading to trading Tkachuk instead of those forwards. How does it help the team more right now to trade away a better player, if you can instead package futures?

There is a problem with your analogy.

Tkachuk and Dube/Mangiapane are not remotely the same tier of player.

Hanifin and Kylington/Valimaki are not only the same tier of player, but Hanifin may very well have the lowest ceiling of the trio.

The base assumption you are making is that Hanifin is surely the better player. It's murky at best whether that is the case and any argument to push it relies strongly on circumstance rather than capability.

A better analogy would be the Lightning trading away Jonathan Drouin instead of Brayden Point. They kept the prospect and let the high draft pick 53 point forward go. Of course there were other factors that played into that trade (like the trade request a year prior) but the logic is a lot closer. Purely from a hockey perspective Tampa should do that trade 10/10 times. That's a hockey trade a contender made which "weakened" their top 6 forward group on paper yet in actuality did nothing of the sort because they had the ability to replace him seemlessly.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Well, looks like Stone will be heading to Winnipeg. Hopefully Treliving steps in and blocks that deal and gets Stone.

 

[viper0220]

Well, looks like Stone will be heading to Winnipeg. Hopefully Treliving steps in and blocks that deal and gets Stone.

How are you so sure that Stone is going to Winnipeg Johnny? f*** you Winnipeg

We have the other Stone, get a pick out of the Jets for the Stone we have.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

How are you so sure that Stone is going to Winnipeg Johnny? **** you Winnipeg

We have the other Stone, get a pick out of the Jets for the Stone we have.

 

[SKRusty]

I see all the emotion flying about these big fish many of you are praying we get. The reality is Tre has pretty much said the Flames are going pretty much stick with the team and game-plan and the players he has assembled. Included in that group of players BT has faith in is Mike Smith and Ritttich.

More about his thoughts here

As I mentioned before the only moves Tre may make are for a 3rd line grinder with a little scoring touch and a defenseman if Stone is not ready to go for the playoffs. I know many of you will be extremely disappointed with that outlook but I find it reassuring in the sense BT believes what he has right now has the best shot for Calgary to bring home the cup this year and seasons to come.

 

[viper0220]

Is this Mike guy legit?

 

[CamPopplestone]

Let Winnipeg have Stone. Let them spend valuable assets on a player they'll be lucky to sign, and will hurt their cap horribly if they do

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

So guys, I love Matthew Tkachuk, but it begs question - what is the Draisaitl Threshold of his contract? It's obvious Chucky is a good player but he's also playing on a killer PP with Giordano, Lindholm, Gaudreau plus Monahan's shot. 5v5 he's been good, but there is a question of how much is him being allowed to play his game because of Backlund. Where does the fine line for "crucial piece vs crippling cap hit" sit?

 

[Volica]

Let Winnipeg have Stone. Let them spend valuable assets on a player they'll be lucky to sign, and will hurt their cap horribly if they do

In Winnipeg he's a pure rental.
But he makes them repugnantly deep. They're already deep as hell.

 

[Mobiandi]

So guys, I love Matthew Tkachuk, but it begs question - what is the Draisaitl Threshold of his contract? It's obvious Chucky is a good player but he's also playing on a killer PP with Giordano, Lindholm, Gaudreau plus Monahan's shot. 5v5 he's been good, but there is a question of how much is him being allowed to play his game because of Backlund. Where does the fine line for "crucial piece vs crippling cap hit" sit?

To me, he hasn't done anything yet to earn more than Monahan, let alone break the Gio cap. That said, there's been a lot of ridiculous contracts that have been given out to guys coming off their ELC so I wouldn't be surprised for it to come in at 7.25

 

[super6646]

To me, he hasn't done anything yet to earn more than Monahan, let alone break the Gio cap. That said, there's been a lot of ridiculous contracts that have been given out to guys coming off their ELC so I wouldn't be surprised for it to come in at 7.25

It's too bad. Hope our team friendly contracts help, because there is no way he should be getting millions more than Gaudreau and gio.

 

[Bounces R Way]

So guys, I love Matthew Tkachuk, but it begs question - what is the Draisaitl Threshold of his contract? It's obvious Chucky is a good player but he's also playing on a killer PP with Giordano, Lindholm, Gaudreau plus Monahan's shot. 5v5 he's been good, but there is a question of how much is him being allowed to play his game because of Backlund. Where does the fine line for "crucial piece vs crippling cap hit" sit?

6.75 per. Kid hasn't earned more than that. If he has an incredible playoffs he might push 7.5 but I don't see him breaking 8 million with Treliving's frugality. What's great about the Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm contracts is that they give a lot of incentive to get better, those guys want to be getting more than that and the Flames' message to them was go out and earn it.

 

[Lunatik]

Keep in mind, Giordano and Gaudreau are only making 6,75 because of the Iginla Cap at 7m

 

[Khrox]

Keep in mind, Giordano and Gaudreau are only making 6,75 because of the Iginla Cap at 7m

I don't see how the Iginla Cap is relevant here, as both those players current deals were signed well after Iginla was gone from the team.

 

[Lunatik]

I don't see how the Iginla Cap is relevant here, as both those players current deals were signed well after Iginla was gone from the team.

apparently i needed to add "/s"

 

[crackdown44]

To me, he hasn't done anything yet to earn more than Monahan, let alone break the Gio cap. That said, there's been a lot of ridiculous contracts that have been given out to guys coming off their ELC so I wouldn't be surprised for it to come in at 7.25

While I agree with you, you have to consider what % of the cap Monahan signed for. The cap has increased significantly over the past 2-3 years and that plays a factor.

I’m hoping guys like Rantanen/Aho take a bit of a cut so that the Matthews contract really looks like an albatross during negociations but who knows.

Funny you said 7.25 because that would be the same % hit as when Monahan signed, I’d be alright with 7.5-8 if it’s for 7-8 years. If not I expect something like 7x5 or 7.25x6

 

[DFF]

I wouldn't worry too much. The way tkachuk is playing, he is looking at 5-6M or sit. He needs a tall ladder to touch Matthews bar