Arizona Coyotes in talks with Tempe on new arena

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
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It’s been a busy evening for me so I’ll address these two items that stick out like rotted bananas.

Re: Meruelo’s Pizza stores.

It was one of the first medium level chain businesses he turned around after his successful tuxedo business he started as a teenager.

Why this has entered the thread is beyond me other than to muck up the discussion.

Re: Tempe’s RFP

Cities don’t issue RFPs without a clear reason and to issue one has no other meaning than negotiations have reached a point to where one or more interested parties are far enough along to submit an official proposal.

What they certainly don’t do is tell a group to “take a crap or get off”. :rolleyes:

In this case the RFP issued by Tempe has specific parameters aimed at drawing a pro sports franchise to the site. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out who that franchise is.

But as I have mentioned in this thread more
than once now….. this isn’t a done deal by any means. It’s just another step in the process.
 
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KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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Legend, great stuff.

One issue I usually have expressing the exact problem of Coyotes situation is the population centers. Maps show the roads and the satellite view helps you see where development is... but it doesn't give non-Arizona people the idea of the severity of the Glendale location.

The map you posted looks like "Oh, you're going to be a few miles closer to downtown, how is that a game changer?"

If you're not from the PHX area, and looking at that map, you need to know that:

The top left of the map shows almost all of Surprise (population 140,000).
The bottom right of the map shows almost none of Gilbert (260,000) or Chandler (260,000) and like 40% of Mesa (500,000)
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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This is a population density map of the entire area. You can see better from this the extreme of the current situation and why the Tempe location is pretty close to ideal.

(Well, the Chase Field site if the DBacks get a new place might be more ideal)


coyotesarena-jpg.455879
 

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BKIslandersFan

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Sep 29, 2017
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Best I could do with Paint 3D on short notice...... but this gives you the approximate locations. This new site is about 3-4 miles due west of where the IceArizona/ASU proposed arena was to be built. ASU is currently building a ~5000 seat arena for the Men's Hockey program in that area.



View attachment 455109
How far is the site from Suns arena? I can't imagine they are too thrilled.
 

TheLegend

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Aug 30, 2009
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How far is the site from Suns arena? I can't imagine they are too thrilled.

Maps posted up thread.

What the Suns think doesn’t matter. City wanted to build a completely new downtown arena for both teams and the Suns’ owner wanted no part of it.

But currently within a 10 mile radius you have…

-Suns Arena (now named Footprint Arena)
-ASU (Desert Financial)
-Veterans Memorial (Suns first arena on the state fairgrounds)
-Grand Canyon University
 

Dirty Old Man

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Think thats about the distance from Barclays to MSG.

That would be a funny coincidence indeed.

And a weird thing about the valley of the Sun (hence "The Valley" on NBA Suns jerseys, btw), is its....distributed nature. It's large and spread out enough to have several "central" areas, and Tempe Town Lake is definitely one of them. Tempe is very rapidly developing its own little skyline of 10+ story glass-and-steel buildings around that man-made (1997) lake. To be fair the proposed arena site isn't in the middle of it, but if it's only a few hundred yards away it would be at least as convenient as, say, Philadelphia's sports district, which isn't exactly in a CBD either.
 

TheLegend

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More deets from Phoenix Biz…

It’s looking more like a project that will make Westgate look like a strip mall.

Article noted this project may not come to fruition until 2024, and the arena wouldn’t be open until 2026 or 2027 at the earliest.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2021/07/24/coyotes-plan-to-submit-multibillion-dollar-arena.html

(EDIT: Updating with a few Cliff's notes)

Site would include (outlined in the RFP)----

- Arena and practice facility.
- 1,000 residential units.
- 200,000 square feet of retail/restaurant space

Source for the article compares the project to The Deer District in Milwaukee. Funding can come from setting up a "theme park (taxing) district" like the one recently created for the Diamondbacks.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix...s-bill-that-could-help-diamondbacks-fina.html

(My opinion.... this would have allowed the IceArizona/ASU project to proceed had it existed at that time.)

Tempe currently has active operations on the site and would not vacate before June 30, 2024. Meaning the earliest the arena could open is 2026 or 2027.
 
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CanadianCoyote

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Oct 11, 2020
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Having a Deer District-like thing for the Yotes in a new Tempe arena would be amazing for the team's long-term sustainability.

Now what catchy marketing term could we use? Coyote Cave?
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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AZ fan here (season ticket holder for 3 years). This new location would be amazing.

Gila River Arena (current location) is basically on the west / northwest edge of where anyone ever goes. This new location is central -- or at least central enough -- and actually makes sense compared to somehow trying to host an NHL team at the far edge of GLENDALE.

You have an arena in Tempe-ish, you solve the financial problems and keep the team in Arizona. It's that simple. This arena would be a game changer for our hockey club. Phoenix is the 5th or 6th largest metro in the entire US, there's absolutely enough demand to keep us here assuming the arena isn't in the worst possible location imaginable

Just a couple of questions since I have never been to AZ other than to change planes. 1) I remember Reinsdorf saying that eventually Glendale would be the center of the valley. This was back in 2009. Has no development taken place in the last 12 years? 2) I also keep hearing that all the fans live on the other side of town and they would go to games if the arena was closer. If that was the case then why haven't TV ratings been higher?
 
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PainForShane

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Just a couple of questions since I have never been to AZ other than to change planes. 1) I remember Reinsdorf saying that eventually Glendale would be the center of the valley. This was back in 2009. Has no development taken place in the last 12 years? 2) I also keep hearing that all the fans live on the other side of town and they would go to games if the arena was closer. If that was the case then why haven't TV ratings been higher?

1) Reinsdorf lied (or he was wrong). All of the growth the last decade or so has been East Valley, more importantly we're sort of having a tech corridor in Chandler, any new money in the next 10-15 years will come from there in terms of upper middle class people who can happily afford to go to games.

2) Good question -- imo biggest part of the reason is our play by play announcers are terrible, but also the on-ice product has been bad as well, lastly no real stars to market compared to ppl like Kyler Murray, Larry Fitzgerald, Devin Booker, Randy Johnson etc. New GM doing bold moves for the future so the team should be good if any of these draft picks hit.

Also as an aside, ASU's main campus is close to this new location, you could / should have discounted college nights to get the younger fans in which would very much help for long run stability.

Anyway if the arena gets financed, there is absolutely no question it's a better location than the current arena / lease we have right now. No one would argue with this, it's not even close. Is it better than moving the team to Houston or Hamilton? Different discussion
 

Yotes2000

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The West side is pretty much all industrial/blue collar - the demographics of people living there are the same for the most part. MOST White collar jobs and employees are in the East Valley. The Coyotes own demographics and ticket base numbers clearly show this or they wouldn't be pursuing a move.
 

TheLegend

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Just a couple of questions since I have never been to AZ other than to change planes. 1) I remember Reinsdorf saying that eventually Glendale would be the center of the valley. This was back in 2009. Has no development taken place in the last 12 years? 2) I also keep hearing that all the fans live on the other side of town and they would go to games if the arena was closer. If that was the case then why haven't TV ratings been higher?

- West Valley is expanding now. So is the southeast.

- It isn't that the fans live on the east side.... it's the long time season ticket holders that come from there.

- The local RSN (Bally's Sports Arizona) carries the DBacks, Suns and Coyotes. There are three cable channels Bally's uses but only their main channel comes with the standard cable packages. To get the other two (BSAPlus and BSAExtra) you need to have an addon package. Suns have the priority on main channel, followed by the DBacks and then Coyotes. So often when two or more teams are playing the Coyotes get relegated to the Plus channel (with replays on the main anywhere from 1:00-3:30 am). If all three teams are playing, the Coyotes get pushed further down to the BSAExtra.

Add to that more people are cutting cords. The satellite carriers dropped BSA a few years ago over contract squabbling. Sinclair (BSA's owner) is looking to creating their own streaming service with their RSNs but the projected price is hefty (hearing it's $23,99/mo).


Coyotes aren't the only NHL team facing this. Altitude in Colorado (who carries the Avalanche) is in the same boat.
 
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TheLegend

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The West side is pretty much all industrial/blue collar - the demographics of people living there are the same for the most part. MOST White collar jobs and employees are in the East Valley. The Coyotes own demographics and ticket base numbers clearly show this or they wouldn't be pursuing a move.


That demographic is changing more than you might realize..
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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1) Reinsdorf lied (or he was wrong). All of the growth the last decade or so has been East Valley, more importantly we're sort of having a tech corridor in Chandler, any new money in the next 10-15 years will come from there in terms of upper middle class people who can happily afford to go to games.

2) Good question -- imo biggest part of the reason is our play by play announcers are terrible, but also the on-ice product has been bad as well, lastly no real stars to market compared to ppl like Kyler Murray, Larry Fitzgerald, Devin Booker, Randy Johnson etc. New GM doing bold moves for the future so the team should be good if any of these draft picks hit.

Also as an aside, ASU's main campus is close to this new location, you could / should have discounted college nights to get the younger fans in which would very much help for long run stability.

Anyway if the arena gets financed, there is absolutely no question it's a better location than the current arena / lease we have right now. No one would argue with this, it's not even close. Is it better than moving the team to Houston or Hamilton? Different discussion

Ok so I buy into the idea that an arena in the East Valley is better than West Valley. However is it $400 million better?
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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Ok so I buy into the idea that an arena in the East Valley is better than West Valley. However is it $400 million better?

Well that's the $400m question, isn't it? Well.. actually $400m is probably an underestimate.

The basic economics of this deal is Tempe handing over cheap land and Meruelo making bank on the surrounding development. Direct subsidies are unpopular now but cheap land and zoning concessions would be a way to do it indirectly.
 

TheLegend

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1) Reinsdorf lied (or he was wrong). All of the growth the last decade or so has been East Valley, more importantly we're sort of having a tech corridor in Chandler, any new money in the next 10-15 years will come from there in terms of upper middle class people who can happily afford to go to games.

No.... you are wrong.

Phoenix Metro is expanding in all directions. Primarily in the northwest and southwest, but also the southeast. They did build the Loop 303 for a reason (and it wasn't just to use as a set for a Transformers movie). ;)

And with that.... I'm not going to entertain perpetuating another east/west Phoenix border war in this forum. There's enough of that crap already on F40.
 
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aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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That demographic is changing more than you might realize..

I remember years ago someone posted a pic of a 3D model of Westgate where it had huge high end luxury condo towers. Was there a market for high end housing in Glendale then or now?
 

TheLegend

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I remember years ago someone posted a pic of a 3D model of Westgate where it had huge high end luxury condo towers. Was there a market for high end housing in Glendale then or now?


Depends on what you consider is "high end". At the time Westgate was beginning there wee quite a few million dollar homes around, but it was probably the lone project that had luxury class homes. But I fail to see the relevance. You don't need to live on the high life to attend hockey games if that's what you're aiming at.

But for kicks...... the housing market in general right now throughout Phoenix Metro is nuts. There are bidding wars even on rental homes.

Stonehaven is one of the newest planned communities near Westgate. Three different builders are in on it,

Stonehaven New Home Communities | Glendale, Arizona Homes | Pulte
Glendale, Arizona Homes for Sale at Stonehaven Expedition Collection - Taylor Morrison
StoneHaven - Crest New Home Community - Glendale - Phoenix, Arizona | Lennar Homes

Zillow estimates $333k is the current median price in Glendale. Which is up almost 27%. One of the builders is pricing in that range (although they are very small homes on undersize lots), while the other two builders start at $100-150K higher.
 
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aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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Depends on what you consider is "high end". At the time Westgate was beginning there wee quite a few million dollar homes around, but it was probably the lone project that had luxury class homes. But I fail to see the relevance. You don't need to live on the high life to attend hockey games if that's what you're aiming at.

But for kicks...... the housing market in general right now throughout Phoenix Metro is nuts. There are bidding wars even on rental homes.

Stonehaven is one of the newest planned communities near Westgate. Three different builders are in on it,

Stonehaven New Home Communities | Glendale, Arizona Homes | Pulte
Glendale, Arizona Homes for Sale at Stonehaven Expedition Collection - Taylor Morrison
StoneHaven - Crest New Home Community - Glendale - Phoenix, Arizona | Lennar Homes

Zillow estimates $333k is the current median price in Glendale. Which is up almost 2y%. One of the builders is pricing in that range (although they are very small homes on undersize lots), while the other two builders start at $100-150K higher.

Not aiming at anything in particular. I'm just curious. In the years since I've been on this board, I have changed careers so now I work in municipal government so I work a lot with planners so this sort of thing is interesting to me now.

The whole "mixed use communities" where people can "live work and play" is such a trend now, and developers make a lot of promises so I am interested in how these things play out in real life. First Ellman had this plan that would have completely changed the city then he ran out of money then Reinsdorf had this vision of Glendale being the center of the valley etc. So to me its a live case study that's somewhat relevant to what I do.
 
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TheLegend

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Not aiming at anything in particular. I'm just curious. In the years since I've been on this board, I have changed careers so now I work in municipal government so I work a lot with planners so this sort of thing is interesting to me now.

The whole "mixed use communities" where people can "live work and play" is such a trend now, and developers make a lot of promises so I am interested in how these things play out in real life. First Ellman had this plan that would have completely changed the city then he ran out of money then Reinsdorf had this vision of Glendale being the center of the valley etc. So to me its a live case study that's somewhat relevant to what I do.


It really wasn't Reinsdorf's vision. That was Elaine Scruggs, the mayor of Glendale at the time. She had running feud with the mayor Scottsdale and the thought she could get one over on him played heavily into it..
 
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Llama19

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Behind the deal: Emails give insight into Tempe’s arena dealings with Coyotes since 2019

To quote:

"Although the Arizona Coyotes are working this month on their proposal to respond to the city of Tempe's recent RFP for a new sports arena and mixed-use development, emails obtained by the Business Journal through a public records request have shown that the lobbying and groundwork for such a plan has been a solid, consistent effort by the NHL team for more than two years."

Source (Paywall): www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2021/08/02/emails-show-coyotes-tempe-arena-discussions.html
 
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awfulwaffle

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Jun 20, 2011
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Behind the deal: Emails give insight into Tempe’s arena dealings with Coyotes since 2019

To quote:

"Although the Arizona Coyotes are working this month on their proposal to respond to the city of Tempe's recent RFP for a new sports arena and mixed-use development, emails obtained by the Business Journal through a public records request have shown that the lobbying and groundwork for such a plan has been a solid, consistent effort by the NHL team for more than two years."

Source: www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2021/08/02/emails-show-coyotes-tempe-arena-discussions.html

This is behind a paywall, did you actually read the article or did you just see the title and the first paragraph you quoted and went with that?
 

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