Confirmed Trade: [ARI/NJD] Taylor Hall (50%), Speers for c. 1st, Cond. Pick, Kevin Bahl, Nate Schnaar & Nick Merkley

[Kranix]

As I said earlier in the thread that got some backlash, I didn't like this deal at all and didn't think Hall moved the needle for that team. They had a hot start on the back of some unsustainable goaltending, and somehow their management failed to see that, even though they are an analytical heavy front office.

I've also maintained since last summer that Hall contract would be a mistake, but I think he is playing himself out of big money. Unless a team like the Islanders get desperate for an "elite" winger up front and pay him, I don't see him breaking over 8M.

And honestly, given his recent play and injury history, even 8M at term seems like a cap dump situation waiting to happen.

By being a point per game on two bad teams, carrying them on his back? Being a 28 year old star with a Hart trophy on his resume, who hasn't slowed down? 23 points in last 28 games?

 

[Kamiccolo]

By being a point per game on two bad teams, carrying them on his back? Being a 28 year old star with a Hart trophy on his resume, who hasn't slowed down? 23 points in last 28 games?

Disagree with me all you want. That's completely fair. Just hope it's your GM who signs him lol.

 

[hockeyguru]

Chayka has to be gone if he can't at least get Hall signed, right?

I'd say the odds of that happening are close to zero.

he might be gone if arizona misses the playoffs again. i think tocchet gets fired first if one is to lose their job

 

[qqaz]

Arizona is now 4 points out from the final wildcard, and have played one game more.

What a terrible result from such a good move. Bringing in Hall (and Kessel before him) looked brilliant, to me. Arizona (team and fanbase) deserved some playoff hockey. The team was playing great this year and they went out early to get the big fish.

Such a disappointment to see it end up so poorly. I'm crushed.

 

[rt]

Arizona is now 4 points out from the final wildcard, and have played one game more.

What a terrible result from such a good move. Bringing in Hall (and Kessel before him) looked brilliant, to me. Arizona (team and fanbase) deserved some playoff hockey. The team was playing great this year and they went out early to get the big fish.

Such a disappointment to see it end up so poorly. I'm crushed.

GM should have fired the coach in late January when there was still time to save the season.

 

[YP44]

Arizona is now 4 points out from the final wildcard, and have played one game more.

What a terrible result from such a good move. Bringing in Hall (and Kessel before him) looked brilliant, to me. Arizona (team and fanbase) deserved some playoff hockey. The team was playing great this year and they went out early to get the big fish.

Such a disappointment to see it end up so poorly. I'm crushed.

I never liked the Kessel deal for the Coyotes

 

[Volica]

Disagree with me all you want. That's completely fair. Just hope it's your GM who signs him lol.

I hope our GM's the one that signs him, definitely.
Dude's a top winger in the entire game.

Best part, keep this in mind; because it's amazing:

In the last 5 years the two best players Taylor Hall has played with has been Leon Draisaitl (not the player he is today) and Kyle Friggen Palmeiri (or Nico, neither of which are legit top line players regardless). The fact this dude has been pacing 70+ points a season playing on some terrible teams when you average the past five years is pretty great.

Because you're a Leafs homer, imagine throwing Marner on the Devils, or the Coyotes. Do you think he'd turn those ships around? Do you think he'd be a Hart trophy winner the same way? Could he be the leading scorer on two bad teams almost lapping his competition?

I hope a team with a Star or elite talent picks him up, because they will be deadly. He'll be someone's Hossa to their Kane/Toews/Keith package.

 

[Kamiccolo]

I hope our GM's the one that signs him, definitely.
Dude's a top winger in the entire game.

Best part, keep this in mind; because it's amazing:

In the last 5 years the two best players Taylor Hall has played with has been Leon Draisaitl (not the player he is today) and Kyle Friggen Palmeiri (or Nico, neither of which are legit top line players regardless). The fact this dude has been pacing 70+ points a season playing on some terrible teams when you average the past five years is pretty great.

Because you're a Leafs homer, imagine throwing Marner on the Devils, or the Coyotes. Do you think he'd turn those ships around? Do you think he'd be a Hart trophy winner the same way? Could he be the leading scorer on two bad teams almost lapping his competition?

I hope a team with a Star or elite talent picks him up, because they will be deadly. He'll be someone's Hossa to their Kane/Toews/Keith package.

Marner is 22. When Hall was his age he hadn't even sniffed 90 points and Marner is going to have 90+ points back to back.

Give him 4 or 5 years and yeah, he probably would. Right now I am 100% confident he could put up Hall's pace in Arizona.

Like I said, I don't really care as I have no dog in the fight. As long as neither Leafs or Canes sign Hall (which I don't see either having interest), let some other sucker of a team pay the man.

 

[hockeyguru]

Marner is 22. When Hall was his age he hadn't even sniffed 90 points and Marner is going to have 90+ points back to back.

Give him 4 or 5 years and yeah, he probably would. Right now I am 100% confident he could put up Hall's pace in Arizona.

Like I said, I don't really care as I have no dog in the fight. As long as neither Leafs or Canes sign Hall (which I don't see either having interest), let some other sucker of a team pay the man.

marner needs 23 points in the next 12 games to hit 90 points in back to back seasons. he probably ain't gonna get it

 

[qqaz]

GM should have fired the coach in late January when there was still time to save the season.

Ya, that's probably correct. I don't know how you can get so little out of Hall, Kessel, and Keller. Those are some of my favourite wingers, and they're all looking pedestrian under Tocchet.

I never liked the Kessel deal for the Coyotes

They gave up nothing for a winger who'se last 3 seasons were 82, 92, and 70 points. For a scoring starved roster, that move was a no brainer. For me, I'd still make that deal even knowing how poor Kessel's year would be this season.

 

[Kamiccolo]

marner needs 23 points in the next 12 games to hit 90 points in back to back seasons. he probably ain't gonna get it

Sorry pace for 90 points. He missed time with injury or he would have hit it.

 

[Mike8]

Sorry pace for 90 points. He missed time with injury or he would have hit it.

So you're using pace for Marner, while saying Hall wouldn't even sniff 90 points by age 22?

Hall's first 4 seasons pace: 53, 71, 90, 87
Marner's first 4 seasons pace: 64, 68, 94, 93

Meanwhile scoring is up significantly in that time.

 

[Pitaya]

Mitch Marner is not better than Taylor Hall lol

Marner’s point totals are massively inflated due to his linemates/PP

 

[Kamiccolo]

So you're using pace for Marner, while saying Hall wouldn't even sniff 90 points by age 22?

Hall's first 4 seasons pace: 53, 71, 90, 87
Marner's first 4 seasons pace: 64, 68, 94, 93

Meanwhile scoring is up significantly in that time.

Marner literally scored 90+ points last year. He's done it, and if not for missing time, would have done it again. And the year before he did that, he paced at 90+ points for the 2nd half of the season during his break out.

It's a pretty consistent scoring rate of 2.5 seasons. It's not like I am taking a random player and saying this. There is nothing outrageous in what I said. Suggesting otherwise shows your bias affected your opinion over the stats.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Mitch Marner is not better than Taylor Hall lol

Marner’s point totals are massively inflated due to his linemates/PP

Boy how the narratives change. Leaf fans spent all summer being told Marner is better than Matthews in all of these offersheet threads lmao

 

[Mike8]

Marner literally scored 90+ points last year. He's done it, and if not for missing time, would have done it again. And the year before he did that, he paced at 90+ points for the 2nd half of the season during his break out.

It's a pretty consistent scoring rate of 2.5 seasons. It's not like I am taking a random player and saying this. There is nothing outrageous in what I said. Suggesting otherwise shows your bias affected your opinion over the stats.

There's literally no bias. You used pace. I used pace. You claimed that Hall hadn't sniffed 90 points by age 22 -- pace shows that Hall not only 'sniffed it', his scoring was right in line with Marner's at the same age in a lower scoring environment. This isn't really up for debate -- and I'm not a fan of either team, and broadly don't care other than taking objection to your claim that Hall hadn't sniffed Marner's performance at the same age.

 

[Kamiccolo]

There's literally no bias. You used pace. I used pace. You claimed that Hall hadn't sniffed 90 points by age 22 -- pace shows that Hall not only 'sniffed it', his scoring was right in line with Marner's at the same age in a lower scoring environment. This isn't really up for debate -- and I'm not a fan of either team, and broadly don't care other than taking objection to your claim that Hall hadn't sniffed Marner's performance at the same age.

I didn't use pace. In fact even if we remove the pace, my argument strengthens because instead of putting up 90+ points at 22, Marner did it at 21. It would be back to back seasons at 22, but if you don't want to use pace, whatever.

You don't really have an arguement.

Anyways, I gave my opinion about Hall, and you decide to attack Marner for some reason and derail the thread. So I said my piece and am out.

 

[Mike8]

I didn't use pace. In fact even if we remove the pace, my argument strengthens because instead of putting up 90+ points at 22, Marner did it at 21. It would be back to back seasons at 22, but if you don't want to use pace, whatever.

You don't really have an arguement.

Anyways, I gave my opinion about Hall, and you decide to attack Marner for some reason and derail the thread. So I said my piece and am out.

I didn't attack Marner. You're totally out to lunch here, you realize. Let's take a look at the actual facts:

1. You claimed Hall didn't sniff 90 points
2. You claimed Marner posted 90 points in 2 back to back seasons -- then said the 2nd one (this season) is based on pace
3. I wrote out the respective players' paces
4. You claimed you didn't use pace
5. You claimed I derailed the thread (when I responded to your comparison of Hall to Marner and saying Hall didn't sniff 90 points)
6. You claim I'm attacking Marner (how? by saying that Hall is not categorically worse in point production? That's a ridiculously broad interpretation of 'attack')

In other words, you derailed the thread to make it about Marner and his 90 point pace this season and compare Hall to that. I responded exclusively to that objectively incorrect comparison. Then you threw your hands up to claim that I'm derailing the thread--because I'm responding to you! Sound logic indeed.

 

[YP44]

Ya, that's probably correct. I don't know how you can get so little out of Hall, Kessel, and Keller. Those are some of my favourite wingers, and they're all looking pedestrian under Tocchet.



They gave up nothing for a winger who'se last 3 seasons were 82, 92, and 70 points. For a scoring starved roster, that move was a no brainer. For me, I'd still make that deal even knowing how poor Kessel's year would be this season.

I still think Galchenyuk is useful

 

[Kamiccolo]

I didn't attack Marner. You're totally out to lunch here, you realize. Let's take a look at the actual facts:

1. You claimed Hall didn't sniff 90 points
2. You claimed Marner posted 90 points in 2 back to back seasons -- then said the 2nd one (this season) is based on pace
3. I wrote out the respective players' paces
4. You claimed you didn't use pace
5. You claimed I derailed the thread (when I responded to your comparison of Hall to Marner and saying Hall didn't sniff 90 points)
6. You claim I'm attacking Marner (how? by saying that Hall is not categorically worse in point production? That's a ridiculously broad interpretation of 'attack')

In other words, you derailed the thread to make it about Marner and his 90 point pace this season and compare Hall to that. I responded exclusively to that objectively incorrect comparison. Then you threw your hands up to claim that I'm derailing the thread--because I'm responding to you! Sound logic indeed.

Maybe it wasn't you, not going to bother checking, but this all started by me saying I wouldn't take Hall, and a Flames fan said Marner wouldn't do any better on those teams.

But either way, Hall didn't sniff 90 points. He had 80. Marner hit 94. We spent the last 3 years hearing how Matthews is a 71 point player or whatever it is. I am just being consistent with what is argued on here. And Hall has had exactly 2 elite seasons, the one you are trying to argue pace about, and his Hart year when he was traded to the Devils.

Otherwise he is a career 50-60 point player who has never stayed healthy enough to prove otherwise.. Yet another reason I wouldn't give him big money into his 30's.

 

[Flyer lurker]

I didn't use pace. In fact even if we remove the pace, my argument strengthens because instead of putting up 90+ points at 22, Marner did it at 21. It would be back to back seasons at 22, but if you don't want to use pace, whatever.

You don't really have an arguement.

Anyways, I gave my opinion about Hall, and you decide to attack Marner for some reason and derail the thread. So I said my piece and am out.

You take Marner over Hall straight up but for the picks and players it would take to get Marner it is better to sign Hall. Hall is a very good player who will get overpaid and I don't want on flyers either. Not because of talent but because of 9-10.5m a year.

 

[Kamiccolo]

You take Marner over Hall straight up but for the picks and players it would take to get Marner it is better to sign Hall. Hall is a very good player who will get overpaid and I don't want on flyers either. Not because of talent but because of 9-10.5m a year.

Oh I agree with you 100% on that. My take is that I don't think Hall is going to be a difference maker over his contract.. Whether that is his health preventing him from putting up the numbers, or his pace the last few years, or his style of play aging poorly.

To get Hall, you are giving 8 AAV x 7 years minimum unless he takes a short deal to try and win a cup. IF there is a bidding war, I can see him approaching 10M. It's a disaster of a contract waiting to happen is all my opinion is.

Not even debating the quality of his career so far, I am debating his future and got caught up in a "my dicks bigger" with some other fans.

 

[Pitaya]

Boy how the narratives change. Leaf fans spent all summer being told Marner is better than Matthews in all of these offersheet threads lmao

Thats just crazy talk lmao

There are only like 4-5 players id take over Matthews. Maybe not even that

 

[Flyer lurker]

Oh I agree with you 100% on that. My take is that I don't think Hall is going to be a difference maker over his contract.. Whether that is his health preventing him from putting up the numbers, or his pace the last few years, or his style of play aging poorly.

To get Hall, you are giving 8 AAV x 7 years minimum unless he takes a short deal to try and win a cup. IF there is a bidding war, I can see him approaching 10M. It's a disaster of a contract waiting to happen is all my opinion is.

Not even debating the quality of his career so far, I am debating his future and got caught up in a "my dicks bigger" with some other fans.

We are on same wave length other than salary for Hall. In a thin star fa class (Krug and and Alex P only others who should get 8m+) I see Hall getting 9.5m. It takes one desperate gm being told win or your fired in a year type. And i want Flyers to avoid like the plague at 9.5. I also prefer to pay star c or 1d over wingers. Of course Panarin and Marner are exceptions, but getting star c or 1d is better winning formula in nhl.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Thats just crazy talk lmao

There are only like 4-5 players id take over Matthews. Maybe not even that

I agree and Leaf fans said as much. I am not sure if it was just people looking at raw stats on hockey DB and concluding that, or if they were trying to egg on Leaf fans who were already on edge with the looming contract, but it was probably the main talking point in those threads. Leaf fans said he won't get Matthews contract and other fans said he would because he was better.

Oh the offseason on here haha.