Are you not entertained?

[RedMenace]

Get over yourself.

Thank you for your valuable input.

It will take a roster that can contend for a cup for people to believe that roster can contend for a cup.

Also, the disdain for "casual" fans by "hardcore" fans is ridiculous. There are fans of every type. You aren't a "better" fan if you are more "dedicated". You just are. Let people enjoy things the way that makes them happy, as long as it isn't hurting anyone.

Again, I don't recall anyone claiming anyone was a better fan. If you read into that and took offense (like I did at the medication comments), then that's on you. I simply stated what *I* do and how *I* feel. That's allowed here, right?

I don't understand what you are saying, here.

Do you have faith that the Wings can turn it around?

Like I said before, people should enjoy things the way that makes them happy, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. None of us should care if some people jump ship, but none of us should be vindictive about it in any way.

Me? I will always be a Wings fan. But I will always be a Wings fan that values my time, so I will not automitically watch every game from start to finish just because of my fandom. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that. And if people watch fewer games because the product is terrible, there shouldn't be anything wrong with that, either.

I agree, but here's the problem: Why can a bunch of people come here spouting their negativity all over the place, that "everyone who likes anything happening now is stupid," (paraphrased) but when someone tries to say something the other way, "get over yourself" is the response? How about the intolerant people get over themselves instead?

Let fans be fans. That includes me, doesn't it? I wanted to vent for a minute about all the goddamned negativity, don't I have that right? Can YOU tolerate differing opinions without calling them "stupid," "asinine," "delusional," etc?

People wanted the Wings to tank, and now they suck... so, naturally, everyone's bitching about that, too. LOSE FOR (an incredibly small chance at) HUGHES! But the losing sucks, right? Or doesn't it? Can't have it both ways.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Who are these "pro tank" people that are now complaining that the Wings suck?

 

[RedMenace]

Who are these "pro tank" people that are now complaining that the Wings suck?

Good one.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I mean the way I see it, the team's coming, we just have some important spots to fill:

Berggren-xxx-Zadina
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Veleno-Rasmussen
Glendening-Turgeon-Smith

xxx-Hronek
Cholowski-McIsaac
Saarijaarvi-Sulak

xxx
xxx

Like, even if some of those hypothetical depth guys don't pan out, things are filling out for this new team. We just need the three most important pieces: A number 1 center, a number 1 defenseman, and a number 1 goalie. And the thing of it all is: we are just properly starting the rebuild, and while it's easier said than done, the next 2-3 seasons is where we have to fill in the blanks.

 

[Shaman464]

I mean the way I see it, the team's coming, we just have some important spots to fill:

Berggren-xxx-Zadina
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Veleno-Rasmussen
Glendening-Turgeon-Smith

xxx-Hronek
Cholowski-McIsaac
Saarijaarvi-Sulak

xxx
xxx

Like, even if some of those hypothetical depth guys don't pan out, things are filling out for this new team. We just need the three most important pieces: A number 1 center, a number 1 defenseman, and a number 1 goalie. And the thing of it all is: we are just properly starting the rebuild, and while it's easier said than done, the next 2-3 seasons is where we have to fill in the blanks.

I see this as also a likely team build, though I see Ehn becoming 4th line center and Smith not making the team.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Again, I don't recall anyone claiming anyone was a better fan. If you read into that and took offense (like I did at the medication comments), then that's on you. I simply stated what *I* do and how *I* feel. That's allowed here, right?

The way you are framing it implies there is a hierarchy. Calling some people "fans" as if you can't call yourself a fan unless you follow the team a certain way.

Do you have faith that the Wings can turn it around?

I don't have faith that can happen, I know that can happen. The question you were probably wanting to ask is if I have faith they will. I cannot say for certain, but depending on the right moves and if the team continues to draft real talent then I think it is a likely scenario. That isn't based on faith, though.

I agree, but here's the problem: Why can a bunch of people come here spouting their negativity all over the place, that "everyone who likes anything happening now is stupid," (paraphrased) but when someone tries to say something the other way, "get over yourself" is the response? How about the intolerant people get over themselves instead?

Nobody says anything near "everyone who likes anything happening now is stupid." These exaggerations of points are not helpful in any way.

Let fans be fans. That includes me, doesn't it? I wanted to vent for a minute about all the goddamned negativity, don't I have that right? Can YOU tolerate differing opinions without calling them "stupid," "asinine," "delusional," etc?

You aren't really talking about the negativity as much as you are talking about people jumping ship and watching other things. The team is going to lose a lot. That means there is going to be a lot to dislike about the CURRENT roster and its players. You shouldn't find that at all surprising, regardless of what kind of "fans" you consider them.

People wanted the Wings to tank, and now they suck... so, naturally, everyone's *****ing about that, too. LOSE FOR (an incredibly small chance at) HUGHES! But the losing sucks, right? Or doesn't it? Can't have it both ways.

People aren't bitching about the fact the team is "tanking". People are bitching about specific players and having issues with the development of some. The fact the team is losing isn't making people lose their minds.

Losing sucks. But sometimes that suckitude leads to things that don't suck. Like #1 overall.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I see this as also a likely team build, though I see Ehn becoming 4th line center and Smith not making the team.

I see Ehn & Turgeon on 4th line...Smith is 10-20% chance of making it.

2020:
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Berggren/Nyquist-Veleno-Zadina
Svechnikov-**2019 1st/Rasmussen...Ras may handle 3C by then or sooner.
Ehn-Turgeon-xxx

xxx-Hronek
Cholowski-McIsaac
Sulak-Saarijaarvi
Lindstrom

Berggren may not be ready in 2 seasons, so Nyquist resigns cuz you know KH.
Nielsen...traded while still has some value w/25% retention
Abby traded/waived by then or sooner
**If Hughes, then he & Veleno battle for 2c, til he adjusts to size/speed of NHL & gains strength etc.

 

[RedMenace]

The way you are framing it implies there is a hierarchy. Calling some people "fans" as if you can't call yourself a fan unless you follow the team a certain way.

Well then I apologize for it coming across that way. I wouldn't want anyone telling me how to cheer for my team, and I certainly don't want to tell anyone else how to either.

I don't have faith that can happen, I know that can happen. The question you were probably wanting to ask is if I have faith they will. I cannot say for certain, but depending on the right moves and if the team continues to draft real talent then I think it is a likely scenario. That isn't based on faith, though.

Of course it's based on faith: You having faith in management, in whatever form it takes, making the "right" moves, doing the "right" things to bring the team back to being champions.

Nobody says anything near "everyone who likes anything happening now is stupid." These exaggerations of points are not helpful in any way.

Hyperbolic paraphrase, but come on, you haven't seen that? Either you're turning a blind eye, or just not looking for it. Either way, it happens.

You aren't really talking about the negativity as much as you are talking about people jumping ship and watching other things. The team is going to lose a lot. That means there is going to be a lot to dislike about the CURRENT roster and its players. You shouldn't find that at all surprising, regardless of what kind of "fans" you consider them.

I don't give a rat's cinnamon ring what other people watch; hell, I watch as many games as possible, and if not a full game, every condensed game. There's nothing wrong with being aware of the rest of the league (or whatever's trending on Hulu).

What gets me are the people who constantly complain about EVERYTHING, whether it's winning, losing, not losing enough, losing too badly, etc. There's a fine line between disliking the current state of affairs and voicing your opinion about it, and bashing the f*** out of the dead horse that is the current team, the management, the veterans, the contracts, the empty seats, the seat covers...

People aren't *****ing about the fact the team is "tanking". People are *****ing about specific players and having issues with the development of some. The fact the team is losing isn't making people lose their minds.

See above, there's no pleasing some people. Again, if you're not seeing it...

Losing sucks. But sometimes that suckitude leads to things that don't suck. Like #1 overall.

If you're lucky. IF. Remember, these aren't the draft years where the Oilers got 17 #1 picks.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I mean the way I see it, the team's coming, we just have some important spots to fill:

Berggren-xxx-Zadina
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Veleno-Rasmussen
Glendening-Turgeon-Smith

xxx-Hronek
Cholowski-McIsaac
Saarijaarvi-Sulak

xxx
xxx

Like, even if some of those hypothetical depth guys don't pan out, things are filling out for this new team. We just need the three most important pieces: A number 1 center, a number 1 defenseman, and a number 1 goalie. And the thing of it all is: we are just properly starting the rebuild, and while it's easier said than done, the next 2-3 seasons is where we have to fill in the blanks.

I agree. But hard to get rid of DK and Gator...

 

[RedMenace]

You know what? There's no point in this. I'm just going to apologize to everyone, admit I'm attempting to poorly argue a paper-thin point, and go my merry way.

So everyone, if you care, I apologize for shit-posting and mucking up this thread.

If you don't care, awesome.

Either way, cheers.

 

[Frk It]

I mean the way I see it, the team's coming, we just have some important spots to fill:

Berggren-xxx-Zadina
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Veleno-Rasmussen
Glendening-Turgeon-Smith

xxx-Hronek
Cholowski-McIsaac
Saarijaarvi-Sulak

xxx
xxx

Like, even if some of those hypothetical depth guys don't pan out, things are filling out for this new team. We just need the three most important pieces: A number 1 center, a number 1 defenseman, and a number 1 goalie. And the thing of it all is: we are just properly starting the rebuild, and while it's easier said than done, the next 2-3 seasons is where we have to fill in the blanks.

The 3 kids in the WHL fill what we are missing really nicely.

Byram looks like an all situations LD to me that should be able to be a big minute 2 way guy.

Dach and Cozens are big RH centers with size who are really talented and play a very complete game.

If we miss out on Hughes I love the upside of those 3 guys a ton, and I love the fit as well.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Gonna be a loooooong year

 

[haulinbass]

This season is a lot better than the last couple. I've watched nearly every Wings game my entire life up until a couple seasons ago. I just couldn't get behind a team that needed to rebuild but was trying to stay afloat and spinning their tires. Larkin and Mantha was a good start but now that we actually have a couple promising D I'm getting into the Wings again and watching more games. It's exciting seeing the young talent build. If we drafted a potential franchise center or D this upcoming draft I probably wouldn't miss a game, even if we were still bad for a few years.

Until then I'll continue to follow the Jets, Colorado, Buffalo and a couple other teams more closely than the Wings. I'm a hockey fan first so regardless if I'm watching 82+ Wings game a year that isn't enough for me.

 

[abbbaron]

This is what a tanking team looks like.

Yeah, no.

THN: You’ve always railed against teams that tank and said it would never happen on your watch. So are we to assume this team is not going to tank?
KH: I don’t think so. We signed Mike Green this summer. We signed Thomas Vanek, we signed (Jonathan) Bernier.

 

[Syckle78]

Good one.

Thank you for your valuable input.

 

[RedWingzz]

I mean the way I see it, the team's coming, we just have some important spots to fill:

Berggren-xxx-Zadina
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Veleno-Rasmussen
Glendening-Turgeon-Smith

xxx-Hronek
Cholowski-McIsaac
Saarijaarvi-Sulak

xxx
xxx

Like, even if some of those hypothetical depth guys don't pan out, things are filling out for this new team. We just need the three most important pieces: A number 1 center, a number 1 defenseman, and a number 1 goalie. And the thing of it all is: we are just properly starting the rebuild, and while it's easier said than done, the next 2-3 seasons is where we have to fill in the blanks.

- Hopefully one of our goalie prospects turns into something. I'm still optimistic about Larsson.
-Hopefully this draft takes care of that 1st line center need (praying for Hughes), and then we trade Nyquist and grab a D (praying for Byram, I know this is not realistic here at all).
-Veleno has 2nd line center upside
-Glendening will be gone before we start our march back into contention
-Sulak will probably be gone
-The way Mantha is playing, I'd rather not keep him around. Trade him while he has value, unless he miraculously turns it around. He has the label as an underachieving secondary scorer who floats, and will carry that label until he shows up, and can be more than a 20-25 goal guy.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, no.
View attachment 148033

Ugh. When will people stop using cap hits as a way to determine whether a team is trying or not? The Wings basically had the majority of their money spoken for in this season. They swapped Mrazek for Bernier and then brought back Green and Vanek.

If I have to read "Top 5 cap hit bottom 5 result" again, I don't know what I'll do. They had a bunch of long term contracts that they had signed. Look at what happens with the cap next year. 18M freed up without much in the way of guys to replace. The following year, another 18-ish million with a couple guys to replace. But no, because they're burning off contracts and they're not gone yet, 18-19 is just another year where they are completely numb to developing a younger team.

They had Franzen and now Z who are on LTIR. To utilize their money, you have to be up at the cap, because you can only replace up to their cap value with players, not actually use the cap space. If you went in 10M under the cap, you'd basically be operating with 10M less than every other roster in hockey.

And even so, the least a team can spend is around 64M right now. The cap and floor make it really difficult to have a material difference in what you're doing... particularly when you have existing long term deals on your books.

 

[jkutswings]

Ugh. When will people stop using cap hits as a way to determine whether a team is trying or not? The Wings basically had the majority of their money spoken for in this season. They swapped Mrazek for Bernier and then brought back Green and Vanek.

If I have to read "Top 5 cap hit bottom 5 result" again, I don't know what I'll do. They had a bunch of long term contracts that they had signed. Look at what happens with the cap next year. 18M freed up without much in the way of guys to replace. The following year, another 18-ish million with a couple guys to replace. But no, because they're burning off contracts and they're not gone yet, 18-19 is just another year where they are completely numb to developing a younger team.

They had Franzen and now Z who are on LTIR. To utilize their money, you have to be up at the cap, because you can only replace up to their cap value with players, not actually use the cap space. If you went in 10M under the cap, you'd basically be operating with 10M less than every other roster in hockey.

And even so, the least a team can spend is around 64M right now. The cap and floor make it really difficult to have a material difference in what you're doing... particularly when you have existing long term deals on your books.

It's not that they spent $80M. Personally, I would have preferred leaving at least a few million in space to increase flexibility for trades, but I'm not dying on that hill.

And it's not that every player on the roster is a bad contract. As you stated, Zetterberg and Franzen were (at the time of signing) unforeseen. Recent deals to Larkin, Mantha, and AA have been fiscally responsible.

It's that, when some fans were more than ready to turn the page (circa 2013), Detroit opted to squeeze every last ounce of cap space into very mediocre signings, on players with little chance to make a difference, and no chance of still being here when the team eventually might contend again. And then they continued to do so for another 2-3 years.

A Henrik Zetterberg had a much larger chunk of the cap, but (when he was signed) was a great player. It's all the minor deals - even going back to Tootoo and Colaiaccovo and the return of Samuelsson and Bertuzzi, then with another wave of it by signing Nielsen and doing the extensions of Helm and Abdelkader - that were very much halfhearted measures of neither reload nor rebuild. If you're trying for one last kick at the can while guys like Hank and Kronwall are still playing, then get creative and find a way to add somebody impactful. But if all those measures fall through, and "Plan B" (or Plan C or D or E) is just bringing in one or more warm bodies that have a very average ceiling, then don't bother...you're just limiting your financial options, without raising your performance ceiling by doing what looks like "spending for the sake of spending".

 

[abbbaron]

Ugh. When will people stop using cap hits as a way to determine whether a team is trying or not? The Wings basically had the majority of their money spoken for in this season. They swapped Mrazek for Bernier and then brought back Green and Vanek.

If I have to read "Top 5 cap hit bottom 5 result" again, I don't know what I'll do. They had a bunch of long term contracts that they had signed. Look at what happens with the cap next year. 18M freed up without much in the way of guys to replace. The following year, another 18-ish million with a couple guys to replace. But no, because they're burning off contracts and they're not gone yet, 18-19 is just another year where they are completely numb to developing a younger team.

They had Franzen and now Z who are on LTIR. To utilize their money, you have to be up at the cap, because you can only replace up to their cap value with players, not actually use the cap space. If you went in 10M under the cap, you'd basically be operating with 10M less than every other roster in hockey.

And even so, the least a team can spend is around 64M right now. The cap and floor make it really difficult to have a material difference in what you're doing... particularly when you have existing long term deals on your books.

Ok, you're right. There's absolutely no relationship between how much a GM doles out with what an organization is trying to accomplish.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Ok, you're right. There's absolutely no relationship between how much a GM doles out with what an organization is trying to accomplish.

There really isn't. You don't get an award for having the most open cap space. You don't get like bonus percentages in the draft lottery for operating with a 64M payroll as opposed to an 80M payroll.

Even with a full ****ing payroll of 80M, the Wings are running out Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, AA, Ehn. Cholo, Hronek, Sulak, Hicketts, etc.
The results of the first 6 games are EXACTLY what a rebuilding team would do... and if you look at their actual payroll in those games, it's not 80M.

Cholo for Green, ~$4.5M off. Sulak for DDK, $4M off, Hronek for Daley, ~2.5M off. Hicketts for Ericsson ~3M off.

So, the actual payroll they had on the ice this last two weeks is damn near a cap floor team's cap hit and they've played like it.

And beyond that... after this year, the Wings drop 18M-ish with like one guy to replace. The next year they drop about another 15-18 with like three guys to replace. But yeah, they're just stubborn pieces of crap who have no idea what they're doing.

They've signed some deals that were not good value... but every damn season they've been positioned to do something huge if one of the guys that they drafted became a superstud right away. Hell, this past offseason before signing Green and Vanek, they would have had the cash to go after Tavares had they so chosen. It would not have been a good move, but I will never understand the handwringing about the Wings not having payroll flexibility when they've quite literally had $10M+ in FA money in almost every offseason since 2012. They had the money to chase Stamkos. They had the money to chase Parise AND Suter. They had the money to go after ANY D they wanted in 2014.

There is no material difference in spend between the Wings using the 10M in LTIR money on players who can actually make them competitive in some games or them sitting on that cash. They had/have a bunch of players with contracts who are basically untradeable due to production vs salary... or if you're trading them, you're taking back a similarly bad deal or giving up big assets to make it happen.

The Wings screwed up because they relied on their much ballyhooed Calder Cup winning prospects from 2013 to be the flag bearers for the roster. Of that grouping, they have Gustav Nyquist and Martin Frk left.

Brendan Smith
Jakub Kindl
Xaiver Ouellet
Ryan Sproul
Petr Mrazek

All were expected to be quite good. All were utter ****ing trash.

They expected that Stephen Weiss would be their #2C until 2018. He basically died within half a year and his career was done. And because you can't force a guy to retire, they had to buy him out and have him on the books until 2021 or something.

They made moves and signed long term deals expecting certain things to happen. They did not. But as soon as the ink dries, you can't really change course that quickly.

 

[The Zermanator]

For the most part, I haven't been entertained by this team in several years.

What was supposed to be entertaining about what the Wings have been sending out on D since Lidstrom retired? Apart from a couple years of really solid Kronwall and a quick flash in the pan from DeKeyser, it's been utter ****.

As for the offence, I hated seeing Zetterberg and Datsyuk's last few years be completely wasted on what was a completely foreseeable and inevitable decline of the team. We could have traded them to contenders. Or better yet, we could have committed to bottoming out while they were still around so they could mentor the blue chip prospects we would have gotten. But nope, we spun our tires trying to squeeze water from a stone and make the playoffs because 'anything can happen'. Well sure, anything can happen. But what was overwhelmingly likely TO happen did just that, and nothing was gained for several seasons.

Now? Sure we suck, but I can enjoy watching Larkin come into his own, I can enjoy seeing Cholowski come up in his rookie season and be a refreshing glimmer of hope on D, it's even fun watching the guys who have struggled so far like Mantha and AA, and Rasmussen and Hronek, because the talent is there. They just need to hone and develop it. And because of that I don't even care that we're losing a ton. The seeds are being sown for a return to contention. And we get to salivate over what blue chip prospect we'll add to our team at the 2019 draft (please Hughes ). That's entertaining for me, the mediocre water treading never was.

So to answer OP's question, yes I am entertained. I haven't been this entertained by this team in years. All hail The Tank!

 

[JoesuffP]

I think guys like Rasmussen, Zadina and Veleno would be better off being thrown into a top six role and get better results than these vets. I don’t think anybody could make that bottom six have consistent scoring. Everybody that has to play on the bottom six consistently is going to have a horrible season statistically

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think guys like Rasmussen, Zadina and Veleno would be better off being thrown into a top six role and get better results than these vets. I don’t think anybody could make that bottom six have consistent scoring. Everybody that has to play on the bottom six consistently is going to have a horrible season statistically

They absolutely wouldn't provide better results. Basically all rookie defense, we get blown the **** out by Boston and Montreal. Get a couple vets back and we're in the game but for a few missed golden opportunities.

Zadina is better off being where he is. Veleno is better off being where he is. Rasmussen would be better off in the AHL if he could go there.

 

[JoesuffP]

They absolutely wouldn't provide better results. Basically all rookie defense, we get blown the **** out by Boston and Montreal. Get a couple vets back and we're in the game but for a few missed golden opportunities.

Zadina is better off being where he is. Veleno is better off being where he is. Rasmussen would be better off in the AHL if he could go there.

I mean as they are brought up. I’m fine with Z and Veleno being where they are but Ras should have time with Larkin and players that can actually score. Nobody is going to perform in that bottom six. The defense is a completely different story. Their faults are expected but what about the forwards? They look just as bad and they shouldn’t

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I mean as they are brought up. I’m fine with Z and Veleno being where they are but Ras should have time with Larkin and players that can actually score. Nobody is going to perform in that bottom six. The defense is a completely different story. Their faults are expected but what about the forwards? They look just as bad and they shouldn’t

Oh, okay. Yeah. I agree with you then.

Zadina has nothing to gain by ever being in a bottom 6 role.
Rasmussen probably should be in more of a Homer type role where he plays with superb players and cleans up net front.
Veleno should be essentially what Helm was a while back. I think Veleno would actually be good in a 3C role.