Are you not entertained?

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
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So far, no major disagreements. Bad teams are bad.



And here's where I have to hop off the HiHD bandwagon. Each fan is entitled to their own interests and priorities, but for me, this is the first season since the summer of 2013 that I've HAD some interest in the on-ice product. I know I'm toward the extreme of the spectrum, but the regular season win/loss record doesn't mean a thing to me. I either want a team legitimately competing for a championship, or doing whatever it takes to maximize their odds in rebuilding for that next window of Cup contention. This year it finally feels like the Datsyuk/Zetterberg era is over, and plenty of kids are getting a real shot at learning in the NHL, and Detroit is starting to accumulate assets that will pay dividends in a few more years.

Now there's no guarantee that these efforts do eventually pan out into even a regular return to the playoffs, let alone being a top 4-6 team in the league, hunting for Stanley again. But at a minimum, I appreciate the sense of fully embracing a rebuild, and I'm encouraged by what guys like Cholowski and Zadina will add to Larkin and Company down the road.



To each their own. To your credit, you called it before it happened, saying that many fans would recoil at the reality of what they were asking for. But I honestly view the 2014-2016 Red Wings as even less interesting than the current roster, because neither era was getting anywhere near a Cup, but at least this one has finally pulled off the band-aid, and is taking their chances with saying goodbye to the old core in hopes of building an entirely new one.

Those kids aren't getting a shot at learning in the NHL. Cholowski is learning at the NHL. He does look like he's ready.

Hronek, Sulak, Rasmussen? They're fighting to keep their heads above water. Basically, they're a stud C league player who jumped up into an A league game. They're way too good for the league they used to be at, but they're nowhere near ready for the jump in talent. Hronek was a big part in those first two goals against in the Montreal game. But having young kids out there scrambling to survive is not development.

I am fine with both of the iterations and just the thought of "rebuilds" and it being okay for a team to tank a, let alone multiple, season(s) makes me violently ill. There isn't some kind of honor in sucking until you're good. You are a professional organization with essentially an 80 million dollar payroll, act like it. It pisses me off even more that because it has worked once (Houston Astros, which are unique in that they could curtail their roster spending and cut ticket prices if they really wanted to steer into the tank) that proponents of sucking until you are good will stump for it. It was never the plan of the Penguins or Hawks to suck for picks in their years. They were literally just awful rosters.

When everything basically amounts to a lot of educated guessing... I want my team to find better scouts who can make more educated guesses with the picks they have than just rally for them to get 3% better odds at something better. Sure, I'd love an Auston Matthews or Connor McDavid. But they weren't the only legit talented players in their draft. If you don't win the lottery, you should take the bull by the horns and do something. Like Darryl in Season 8 of the office related to the lottery. "I don't know what my future holds, but it won't be determined by 5 little white balls. It'll be determined by two big black ones". I will never begrudge winning the lottery. I'd love it. But when you don't, the lesson to take away isn't "suck so you have better odds". It is use what you have already to improve yourself.

Look at Boston. They were about to get written off into obscurity after the 2011 Cup. A couple years ago, they were blah and just had all old dudes. Now, they're a legit talented team who's got a real shot to make some noise. They didn't win the lottery. They didn't suck to get good. They had the great fortune that Brad Marchand matured and became a top line stud... that's true. But a lot of their success is a two way guy in Bergeron who is fantastic and then a bunch of young dudes with huge motors.
 

Rzombo4 prez

Registered User
May 17, 2012
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Are you telling me that less expectations can be more exciting?

Yes, watching something I haven't seen before is more exciting, even if it isn't the worlds best hockey. The score sheet doesn't dictate my excitement at this stage. What can I say, I am a hockey fan. Ask me in six years if I still feel the same and I might have a different answer.
 
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Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
if the team was 6-0, we would all know that it would mean absolutely sh*t.
Like when we crushed preseason.

It didn't mean anything. We're obviously not finishing the year at this pace either in terms of points or even GD.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,842
8,564
I have a question: Are you guys, specifically you but also everyone else in general, actually watching these games?

In my opinion, what is happening right now is that people are essentially doing the 'simulate week/season' deal in an NHL 18 game set to GM mode and checking out of the game to game stuff. People cannot be watching 3 periods of Wings hockey this season and going 'Finally! Something to get excited about!"

The on-ice product is atrocious. It's not lesser players simply losing to better players. It's lesser players being wholly unready for this level of hockey to the point that teams are literally taking it easy on them.

I've seen a few people respond similarly to you in this thread and I... I just don't understand it. I mean, I get that it may just be the 'oh bleep I've been agitating for a tank so long if I don't at least feign glee now that it's here I'm going to get ripped' deal... but beyond that. These guys aren't learning anything right now except how to get humiliated. These teams that go through these tanks rarely ever have more than a couple guys on them by the time they win, either because they never eventually win or because the player in question (Crozby, Kopitar, Fleury) was a legit elite player.

95% of this roster will be gone by the time Detroit wins another Cup, if they even win one during the careers of anyone on the roster. All this 'learning' and 'growing' with these kids is only going to be useful to them on their next team.
Fair question, and I'll be completely honest. I have not been able to watch the last few games, so I didn't see any of the ugliest results firsthand. But I eagerly watched the first few games, and seeing things like a great pass from Larkin to a streaking Cholowski for his first NHL goal was a whole lot more important to me than the kid subsequently wetting the bed on his next shift to cough up a goal, let alone losing the game. I view it all as growing pains, and as long as I see the kids learning, I'm ok with it.

Will I tune in as much as I possibly can? Probably not, but even if they were gunning for the President's Trophy, I just don't have the time to watch that many games. But it's really the truth that I'd rather watch a 20-50-12 team that's been handed over to some kids that show potential, than see a bunch of veterans with no future here, fighting for a playoff spot that won't amount to anything.

And assuming the collective opinion on this board is accurate, by saying that the last few games have shown at least some of the kids to be so far over their heads that they really do need to be sent down for awhile, I'm not dead set against reintroducing some of the veterans once they're healthy. It just feels like this is the first season in a long time where prospects weren't treated as conservatively as humanly possible, and it's been a breath of fresh air.
 
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ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,862
6,942
Those kids aren't getting a shot at learning in the NHL. Cholowski is learning at the NHL. He does look like he's ready.

Hronek, Sulak, Rasmussen? They're fighting to keep their heads above water. Basically, they're a stud C league player who jumped up into an A league game. They're way too good for the league they used to be at, but they're nowhere near ready for the jump in talent. Hronek was a big part in those first two goals against in the Montreal game. But having young kids out there scrambling to survive is not development.

I am fine with both of the iterations and just the thought of "rebuilds" and it being okay for a team to tank a, let alone multiple, season(s) makes me violently ill. There isn't some kind of honor in sucking until you're good. You are a professional organization with essentially an 80 million dollar payroll, act like it. It pisses me off even more that because it has worked once (Houston Astros, which are unique in that they could curtail their roster spending and cut ticket prices if they really wanted to steer into the tank) that proponents of sucking until you are good will stump for it. It was never the plan of the Penguins or Hawks to suck for picks in their years. They were literally just awful rosters.

When everything basically amounts to a lot of educated guessing... I want my team to find better scouts who can make more educated guesses with the picks they have than just rally for them to get 3% better odds at something better. Sure, I'd love an Auston Matthews or Connor McDavid. But they weren't the only legit talented players in their draft. If you don't win the lottery, you should take the bull by the horns and do something. Like Darryl in Season 8 of the office related to the lottery. "I don't know what my future holds, but it won't be determined by 5 little white balls. It'll be determined by two big black ones". I will never begrudge winning the lottery. I'd love it. But when you don't, the lesson to take away isn't "suck so you have better odds". It is use what you have already to improve yourself.

Look at Boston. They were about to get written off into obscurity after the 2011 Cup. A couple years ago, they were blah and just had all old dudes. Now, they're a legit talented team who's got a real shot to make some noise. They didn't win the lottery. They didn't suck to get good. They had the great fortune that Brad Marchand matured and became a top line stud... that's true. But a lot of their success is a two way guy in Bergeron who is fantastic and then a bunch of young dudes with huge motors.

it's not all about the #1 overall(which by the way is a 5% boost for finishing last not a 3% which is actually pretty big when you're going from 13 to 18%)

every spot higher you finish is also a worse chance at getting the #2,and a worse chance at the #3,and you pick a spot later in every pick past the first round,and perhaps most importantly of all is one spot lower you can potentially draft

finish last and you got a 50% chance of drafting 4th and that's as low as you can go,finish 5th last and all of a sudden you can draft as low as 8th and have a 65.5% chance of drafting 6th or later(and a 73.9% chance of drafting 5th or later)

you probably aren't getting the #1 either way but overall it makes a massive difference in the quality of options you're gonna get to pick from

it's not all about the Hughes of the world,want another Rasmussen or would you rather have a Pettersson? because where you finish matters a LOT for that
 
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Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,201
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crease
Inevitable situation... it is what it is... you don’t rebuild on the fly twice.

The team has been putting band-aids on wounds that have needed sutures.

Coming in with, "See? Doesn't it suck?" posts in the middle of the rebuild is like claiming things have never been worse in the middle of surgery. No shit. We've put off surgery for years and it's going to hurt right now when we open everything up. So take your damn pain pills, do your rehab, and we'll be stronger when it's over.
 

Ezekial

Cheap Pizza, Bad Hockey
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Nov 22, 2015
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Chicago
I'll probably miss Thursday's game as I'll be on a plane, but these first 6 games have not deterred me from planning on watching my usual ~75 games this year.
I'm not watching because I think they'll win or be good, I'm watching them knowing they'll be trash but I like watching how kids progress... See them with my own eyes rather than mimic someone else's opinion I read on the internet.
 
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HIFE

Registered User
May 10, 2011
3,219
250
Detroit, MI
Yes a group of us and I'm sure thousands more are watching all the games to the last buzzer.

I'm a fanatic of the Wings and the NHL. I enjoy all the teams and I've already caught some pretty interesting games. Carolina-Winnipeg, Buffalo-Colorado, the Toronto-Capitals game was cool, to name a few. If the only hockey you experienced was the Red Wings, yeah a person might grow disinterested. Following the NHL helps me evaluate our players and the future honestly.

Repeating myself (don't we all), I have to DVR the games to skip the advertisements and intermissions. I cannot listen to a word of John Keating, I loathe him being part of the Wings broadcast. With the ability to fast-forward through him and our 50 icings per game turns what feels like a 3 hour attack of postprandial somnolence into a nice 1 hour + carnival ride! Seriously you don't have to invest a ton of time to watch the Wings battle and understand where they're at.

In reply to the real topic here: the sad part of this season is there never was room for more than Ras and Cholo; Svechnikov was already expected to be in. The lineup is riddled with the same useless veterans from years ago. Every sign points to the fact that Holland had no intention of "tanking", we're simply a very weak NHL team. So no, this isn't what people wanted, to watch a load of incompetent veterans that can't score or even set up a few pretty plays. I'd be a lot less annoyed if I didn't have to watch Vanek and Abdelkader doing absolutely nothing out there.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Those kids aren't getting a shot at learning in the NHL. Cholowski is learning at the NHL. He does look like he's ready.

Hronek, Sulak, Rasmussen? They're fighting to keep their heads above water. Basically, they're a stud C league player who jumped up into an A league game. They're way too good for the league they used to be at, but they're nowhere near ready for the jump in talent. Hronek was a big part in those first two goals against in the Montreal game. But having young kids out there scrambling to survive is not development.

I am fine with both of the iterations and just the thought of "rebuilds" and it being okay for a team to tank a, let alone multiple, season(s) makes me violently ill. There isn't some kind of honor in sucking until you're good. You are a professional organization with essentially an 80 million dollar payroll, act like it. It pisses me off even more that because it has worked once (Houston Astros, which are unique in that they could curtail their roster spending and cut ticket prices if they really wanted to steer into the tank) that proponents of sucking until you are good will stump for it. It was never the plan of the Penguins or Hawks to suck for picks in their years. They were literally just awful rosters.

When everything basically amounts to a lot of educated guessing... I want my team to find better scouts who can make more educated guesses with the picks they have than just rally for them to get 3% better odds at something better. Sure, I'd love an Auston Matthews or Connor McDavid. But they weren't the only legit talented players in their draft. If you don't win the lottery, you should take the bull by the horns and do something. Like Darryl in Season 8 of the office related to the lottery. "I don't know what my future holds, but it won't be determined by 5 little white balls. It'll be determined by two big black ones". I will never begrudge winning the lottery. I'd love it. But when you don't, the lesson to take away isn't "suck so you have better odds". It is use what you have already to improve yourself.

Look at Boston. They were about to get written off into obscurity after the 2011 Cup. A couple years ago, they were blah and just had all old dudes. Now, they're a legit talented team who's got a real shot to make some noise. They didn't win the lottery. They didn't suck to get good. They had the great fortune that Brad Marchand matured and became a top line stud... that's true. But a lot of their success is a two way guy in Bergeron who is fantastic and then a bunch of young dudes with huge motors.

I think in the hyperbole and the vitriol what's lost is no one wanted the team to suck per se. They wanted moves to be made that were more forward looking. The flip side of that coin though is that the team wouldn't be a good team. This means not extending players who are looking at UFA raises. It would mean trading prospects that don't fit in to a long view for picks or other prospects. It means jettisoning the whole win now attitude. Sometimes you don't win a trade in the short term, but in the long term you might. And in that vein it also means taking chances and risks. For me, in the end, that's been my whole complaint about the rebuild, there was no risk taken, the path of least resistance was trying to retool and keep lowering expectations, without a real plan for the future. And now we are left with a team that is not nearly as bright as it could be and only the hope of winning the lottery to make the pain not last as long.
 
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Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
I find myself entertained watching the young players. I knew we were going to be bad and I knew our goaltender situation was dire, so I am not too upset about our record.

The only way I will not be entertained will be if the kids get buried for vets. This season playing vets gets you to 4-1 instead of 5-2 losses.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,683
The team has been putting band-aids on wounds that have needed sutures.

Coming in with, "See? Doesn't it suck?" posts in the middle of the rebuild is like claiming things have never been worse in the middle of surgery. No ****. We've put off surgery for years and it's going to hurt right now when we open everything up. So take your damn pain pills, do your rehab, and we'll be stronger when it's over.

1) be bad by choice
2) be bad but still try hard
3) stay good forever

It’s almost like people think #3 was an option?

It was only ever #1 or #2. #2 was just the longer route. But we were always gonna end up here.
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,862
6,942
1) be bad by choice
2) be bad but still try hard
3) stay good forever

It’s almost like people think #3 was an option?

It was only ever #1 or #2. #2 was just the longer route. But we were always gonna end up here.

the Wings should have drafted another Lidstrom in the 3rd round

not sure why some people wanna tank instead of just doing that
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,315
897
GPP Michigan
The past five seasons made me completely apathetic to the Wings. Now i care again because there is a potential path forward. I knew that what the Wings were doing was delaying the inevitable just to potentially lose in the first round. I can't enjoy watching a team that only cared about being mediocre. That is far more coma inducing than the current dumpster fire we are watching.

IDK why anyone would be surprised by the current quality of the roster. the 2018-2019 Wings are a direct result of the actions the organization made over the past 6-7 years. Kicking the can down the road until they ran out of road.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,150
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Philadelphia
this is the most exciting season in a half decade for me

this team has been going nowhere for a long time but now might actually get some elite talent out of it,do I plan on watching a lot of games? no,but I haven't been watching many games in recent seasons either

I'm here as well, this is perhaps the most interested I've been in the direction of the organization since maybe 2011.

Obviously I'm thrilled to see how guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, and Mantha developed in that span, but this is a team in desperate need of a rebuild, and cold-hard reality finally set in.
 

Perfect Human

Registered User
Dec 17, 2014
1,520
1,010
And tbh, it's been 6 games.. if the team was 6-0, we would all know that it would mean absolutely sh*t. This team will win games. They will get Dekeyser/Green/Ericsson back and the defense will become a bit steadier. Mantha will score goals. Etc. We're bad, we're likely bottom 5 and maybe bottom 3. But take it easy, it's only been like two weeks.

I agree with your sentiment. If the team went on a 6 game skid in the middle of the season it would be a bit different. We have 2 points and in the past, we have gone more than 6 games pointless.
 

newfy

Registered User
Jul 28, 2010
14,718
8,241
This is what a tanking team looks like.

No one goes, no one watches, and not very many people even care.

Detroit is 6 games in and has a game in hand on the rest of the league for 30th place.

They have given up 5 more goals than the team which has given up the second most goals.

Their goal differential is 9 goals worse than the team with the second worst goal differential.

There is quite literally not a single thing to be encouraged about regarding the team on any level, beyond perhaps Yzerman being the GM someday. Maybe.

This might have been the worst and least enjoyable the Wings have been in my lifetime, had I not been sentient for the tail end of the Dead Things era.

But hey, in 7 months or so maybe Detroit will get the #1 overall pick, at least if they don't get cold enveloped by Bettman. This is why I've been opposed to a tank (not that they are tanking intentionally... but man it seems like they are tanking intentionally this year). A couple seasons of this sets the organization back 10 years.

If any of the other pro teams in town were run competently this would be a brewing disaster, but at least the Wings can feel solace in that the Tigers, Lions and Pistons are also all absolutely terrible and will be so for 3+ years as well.

This here, right now, is the most desolate pro sports landscape in Detroit for 4 decades... and we're just entering the wastelands of it.

Ugh.

Dramatic post is dramatic.

Not a thing to be encouraged about regarding the team? Yeah Larkin and Bertuzzi havent looked great this year, neither has Cholowski in his 0 pro experience NHL debut season.

A couple seasons of this sets the organization back ten years? As opposed to what? Staying a team that misses the playoffs and picks 10th overall sounds way better than just sucking for a few years and becoming a cup contender.

This is about as bad as its been for Detroit sports in a while. Thats what happens when youre the best sports town in the country for a good 6-8 years. Tigers went to a couple world series and were perrenial contenders, same with the wings. The pistons went to 6 straight conference finals, won a championship against Shaw and Kobe and went to another final. The Lions were the only team that sucked at that time, and they dont suck anymore.

You really jut sound like a fan thats been spoiled to be honest. This is the type of season that separates the band wagoners that started liking the team cause they were the best in the league 10-20 years ago from the actual fans. Either stick along for the ride or hop on with another team. Just dont come back in 5 years when Larkin, Zadina, Bertuzzi, Cholowski and the wings first pick this year are cup contenders
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
Now, they're a legit talented team who's got a real shot to make some noise. They didn't win the lottery. They didn't suck to get good.
They're gonna be in the playoffs but I don't think anyone is expecting them to make it to the finals, much less win it all.

That being said, let's evaluate where they are after Bergy and Chara retire. They're still leaning on that core. Can they replace an elite talent like Bergeron without picking top 15? Statistics point to no.
 

RedMenace

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Jul 24, 2006
7,342
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www.ShattenkirksKrakenshirt.net
The team has been putting band-aids on wounds that have needed sutures.

Coming in with, "See? Doesn't it suck?" posts in the middle of the rebuild is like claiming things have never been worse in the middle of surgery. No ****. We've put off surgery for years and it's going to hurt right now when we open everything up. So take your damn pain pills, do your rehab, and we'll be stronger when it's over.

Benchy-poo, this is a reality check; as a collective, you can clamor for a rebuild and a year or seven of suckage all you want.

These are the "hard to swallow" pills that separate the real fans from the casuals. Will you still be a "fan" 5 years down the road when the Wings have become the Oilers of the mid-2000s? What does it take to turn it around? What will it take to make people believe again?

It's all about faith. Some people believe in "God." Some people believe in "the Universe." What we have to believe in are a bunch of humans doing a bunch of human things, making mistakes along the way. Will people still believe in the Red Wings when it's all said and done? Who will be the true believers? Who will be the bandwagoneers?

I, for one, live in North Carolina. The Hurricanes are poised to be a good team after years of suck. I could easily turn tail and be a 'Canes fan because I was born and raised here. My entire family, however, is from Detroit. 9 Mile. Wayne State. St. Clair Shores. Fraser. I still have family there. My roots are in Michigan. Doesn't it suck in the middle of a rebuild? Could things have gone a more proactive route? Yes, and many will jump ship. Many will say, "Well shit, the Wings suck now, I'll cheer for _______ because they don't."

To them I say, "Good riddance." Take those "hard to swallow" pills and shove 'em where the pie goes. You wanted this cat ass trophy? You've got it. Can you deal with it now after 25 years of excellence?
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,842
8,564
Benchy-poo, this is a reality check; as a collective, you can clamor for a rebuild and a year or seven of suckage all you want.

These are the "hard to swallow" pills that separate the real fans from the casuals. Will you still be a "fan" 5 years down the road when the Wings have become the Oilers of the mid-2000s? What does it take to turn it around? What will it take to make people believe again?

It's all about faith. Some people believe in "God." Some people believe in "the Universe." What we have to believe in are a bunch of humans doing a bunch of human things, making mistakes along the way. Will people still believe in the Red Wings when it's all said and done? Who will be the true believers? Who will be the bandwagoneers?

I, for one, live in North Carolina. The Hurricanes are poised to be a good team after years of suck. I could easily turn tail and be a 'Canes fan because I was born and raised here. My entire family, however, is from Detroit. 9 Mile. Wayne State. St. Clair Shores. Fraser. I still have family there. My roots are in Michigan. Doesn't it suck in the middle of a rebuild? Could things have gone a more proactive route? Yes, and many will jump ship. Many will say, "Well ****, the Wings suck now, I'll cheer for _______ because they don't."

To them I say, "Good riddance." Take those "hard to swallow" pills and shove 'em where the pie goes. You wanted this cat ass trophy? You've got it. Can you deal with it now after 25 years of excellence?
I wasn't aware that they started giving out the "You're a Better Fan than I Am" Award.

Each person watches sports how they please. If I really even cared about the stereotypical labels used for fandom, I would wholeheartedly embrace the concept of being a bandwagon fan. If a franchise makes smart decisions and provides me a return on investment, that's a good thing. And if they make stupid decisions that leads to a poor entertainment product, I don't owe them a darn thing. But that's me, and if somebody else wants to "remain through thick and thin", that's completely their choice to do so...

But don't expect me to feel marginalized in any way if I don't share the opinion.
 

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