Are you interested in the EHT-tournaments?

[Elvs]

Well, hell hell yeah then. Let's just keep playing the World Cup just like before with a dull Slovakia and a crappy Germany for the sake of it. Things should just keep on being like they have always been.

Or just make a short reflection on how good the 2016 format was compared to 2004 and even 1996. I know my stance.

Clearly you don't as 2004 Slovakia > 2016 team Europe. At least on paper, which is how you like to value teams anyway lol.

Demitra, Stumpel, Satan, Hossa, Gaborik, Nagy, Zednik, Chara, Visnovsky = dull. Honestly at this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. Of course, I didn't even bother to mention Bondra and Palffy as they missed the 2004 World Cup due to injuries. But I guess the organizers should have forseen that and forbid Slovakia from playing.

 

[Jon Riley]

Or just make a short reflection on how good the 2016 format was compared to 2004 and even 1996. I know my stance.

mmmmh...ok.
No, it really wasn't.
Two teams that are not rapresenting nations are enough to invalidate any claim of "internationality" of the tournament.
Corollary: two teams that could not select all of their best players are another dent in credibility of the whole thing.
Appendix: nobody cared, and everyone that had a minimum of insight in how european sport culture works knew that from the very start.

It was nothing more than an all start game on steroids, made worse by the NHL olympic bailout indeed, but a completely forgettable tournament tailored to give more unassuming hockey during the break

 

[torniojaws]

In Finland, EHT is basically just a C-team effort that people watch if they happen to catch a game on TV by accident. I don't feel like anyone is anxiously waiting for it.

In terms of international tournaments, I would say the pecking order is:

#1 - Olympics
#2 - World Championship
#3 - World Junior Championships (and I guess: U16, U18, U20, U17)
#4 - World Cup (if the tournament was longer and more regular, I think it could overtake the junior and adult WC's)
#5 - (crickets)
#6 - EHT tournaments

There is no "European unity" when it comes to team sports.

I don't think there is "European unity" in anything At most, I will cheer for other Nordic countries if Finland is out, but that's about it.

 

[Jahara]

Clearly you don't as 2004 Slovakia > 2016 team Europe. At least on paper, which is how you like to value teams anyway lol.

Demitra, Stumpel, Satan, Hossa, Gaborik, Nagy, Zednik, Chara, Visnovsky = dull. Honestly at this point I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. Of course, I didn't even bother to mention Bondra and Palffy as they missed the 2004 World Cup due to injuries. But I guess the organizers should have forseen that and forbid Slovakia from playing.

No, I didn't mean that. Slovakia in 2004 had a good team, even tough they didn't made any results. Slovakia in 2016 would have been a dull team with a few ageing stars and I didn't miss them. Did you?

mmmmh...ok.
No, it really wasn't.
Two teams that are not rapresenting nations are enough to invalidate any claim of "internationality" of the tournament.
Corollary: two teams that could not select all of their best players are another dent in credibility of the whole thing.
Appendix: nobody cared, and everyone that had a minimum of insight in how european sport culture works knew that from the very start.

It was nothing more than an all start game on steroids, made worse by the NHL olympic bailout indeed, but a completely forgettable tournament tailored to give more unassuming hockey during the break

Just imagine if they would have done it the same way as in 2004. Germany and Slovakia wouldn't have had a chance but still would have reached the QF. None of this predictable criticizm would probably even existed and the tournament had been remembered just like the 2004 edition that was half dull and had a crappy format.

But as I said before, it is easier to fail in a traditional way than to fail while trying something new. Hooraay!

 

[Elvs]

No, I didn't mean that. Slovakia in 2004 had a good team, even tough they didn't made any results. Slovakia in 2016 would have been a dull team with a few ageing stars and I didn't miss them. Did you?

Fair enough. And yes, I did, because I enjoy watching national teams and because underdogs are exciting. We're talking about Slovakia here, not Italy who would have been crushed with double digits every game. I mean, you should have to look no further than Team Europe to realize that Slovakia would have survived on their own. Tatar was their leading scorer, Gaborik was their 2nd leading scorer. Chara and Sekera was the top pairing. Halak was the best goaltender in the tournament.

Hossa didn't have a great tournament, but was still a good 2-way winger and top six forward in the twillight of his career. He scored 26 goals in just 73 games in the NHL that season. Meanwhile, Panik (who scored 22 goals and 44 points) and Budaj (91.7 svs% through 53 games for the Kings) got robbed of the experience. The likes of Cehlarik, Jurco and Dano would have been minor downgrades from Bellemare, Boedker and Hansen. Marincin and Meszaros could easily have replaced Sbisa and Ehrhoff.

Losing Kopitar and Josi would have been big blows, but overall they still would have been competitive and not made a fool of themselves.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Team Europe had no identity. Their logo means nothing, their jersey represents nothing. It's not even a team Europe. It's a team rest of Europe. Nobody in Norway cared about Team Europe despite Zuccarello playing on that team. Same goes for Slovenia and Kopitar etc. Nobody cared, except Americans who thought it was "cool".

 

[Jahara]

Team Europe had no identity. Their logo means nothing, their jersey represents nothing. It's not even a team Europe. It's a team rest of Europe. Nobody in Norway cared about Team Europe despite Zuccarello playing on that team. Same goes for Slovenia and Kopitar etc. Nobody cared, except Americans who thought it was "cool".

Was anyone expecting Team Europe to have an identity, a jersey representing something and a big following of fans? No. The idea of Team Europe was to raise the quality and gather the best of the rest. Hopefully it would have spread the great gospel of the sport. Some didn't like it and some did. But as I said before it was more entertaining than having Germany again. Or did anyone outside Germany care much about them being hammered before? Or even in Germany? I have my doubts.

Funny btw how you are branding the World Championship as a success. Maybe it is time to realize what nonsense that tournament is and has been so for a long time. Some journalist might be able to uncover the hoax.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Was anyone expecting Team Europe to have an identity, a jersey representing something and a big following of fans? No. The idea of Team Europe was to raise the quality and gather the best of the rest. Hopefully it would have spread the great gospel of the sport. Some didn't like it and some did. But as I said before it was more entertaining than having Germany again. Or did anyone outside Germany care much about them being hammered before? Or even in Germany? I have my doubts.

Funny btw how you are branding the World Championship as a success. Maybe it is time to realize what nonsense that tournament is and has been so for a long time. Some journalist might be able to uncover the hoax.

It's globally regarded as the highest level of international hockey aside from the Olympics. It's a success. Go to a game any year and you will notice that the popularity far exceeds the WCH. You can keep saying it isn't, but you're wrong. And before anyone brings up that Canadians don't care about it anyway (Because I've heard that excuse a lot over the years) etc... these photos say otherwise.

 

[Atas2000]

It's globally regarded as the highest level of international hockey aside from the Olympics. It's a success. Go to a game any year and you will notice that the popularity far exceeds the WCH. You can keep saying it isn't, but you're wrong. And before anyone brings up that Canadians don't care about it anyway (Because I've heard that excuse a lot over the years) etc... these photos say otherwise.

They care a lot about team Europe he says. Maybe they should relocate and be Team Europe's fan base in Europe. Who cares about those Germans and Frenchmen and other strange peoples and their obscure preferences anyway?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

They care a lot about team Europe he says. Maybe they should relocate and be Team Europe's fan base in Europe. Who cares about those Germans and Frenchmen and other strange peoples and their obscure preferences anyway?

Everyone cares about Team Europe, except Europeans haha

 

[Atas2000]

Was anyone expecting Team Europe to have an identity, a jersey representing something and a big following of fans? No. The idea of Team Europe was to raise the quality and gather the best of the rest. Hopefully it would have spread the great gospel of the sport. Some didn't like it and some did. But as I said before it was more entertaining than having Germany again. Or did anyone outside Germany care much about them being hammered before? Or even in Germany? I have my doubts.

Funny btw how you are branding the World Championship as a success. Maybe it is time to realize what nonsense that tournament is and has been so for a long time. Some journalist might be able to uncover the hoax.

You sound more and more like someone who is paid by Gary and the NHL to go spread on the interweb the gospel of how you should have no other hockey than NHL hockey. This is hilarious. You are trying to tell us how popular and important or not the World Championship is to us so hear me out. The World Championship is the only tournament aside from the Olympics that will ever carry the weight, because it's a true international championship under IIHF rule and not some fraudulent NHL event to promote the NHL alone and make money for the NHL alone.

Look, all the whining from the NHL about the Olympics is about money and money alone. They don't like this about it because they lose money and they don't want to do that because they won't earn a pile of gold.

We are perfectly fine with them doing at home whatever they want. Even call their tournament as pretentiously as the World Cup of Hockey, but we will always acknowledge it only for what it is - an NHL event under NHL rule. And if the format is a bore and there a spots filled out by some random teams instead of teams that no matter how they perform would get a significant fan base behind them then we claim the natural right to not like it.

If the NHL or Canadians or their players for that matter don't like World Championships we are also fine with that. Stay away all you want. It's big enough without you and it always will be.

There is only one thing. If you are so vigorously and persistently claiming to be the best at some point people will ask for a proof.

 

[Jahara]

It's globally regarded as the highest level of international hockey aside from the Olympics. It's a success. Go to a game any year and you will notice that the popularity far exceeds the WCH. You can keep saying it isn't, but you're wrong. And before anyone brings up that Canadians don't care about it anyway (Because I've heard that excuse a lot over the years) etc... these photos say otherwise.

Regarded as the highest level of international hockey aside from the Olympic, you say. By who? The fans perhaps, but they are simply wrong. How could a tournament without the best players be regarded like that?

Atas2000: It is funny how you dismiss the World Cup as some kind of cash machine for the NHL and cheers for the World Championship. That tournament is played every year to gain money for the oh so philantropic IIHF.

 

[holyprime]

By who? The fans perhaps, but they are simply wrong.

Yeah, who cares about the people that actually watch the game when you can ask a random stranger on the internet?

That tournament is played every year to gain money for the oh so philantropic IIHF.

No one is portraying the IIHF as philantropic, but you do realize that a large chunk of the WHC money is given to the hockey federations (which invest a substantial amount of that money into the development of (possibly) future NHL players..)? That lousy preseason tournament the NHL held two years ago on the other hand..

 

[Jahara]

Yeah, who cares about the people that actually watch the game when you can ask a random stranger on the internet?

No one is portraying the IIHF as philantropic, but you do realize that a large chunk of the WHC money is given to the hockey federations (which invest a substantial amount of that money into the development of (possibly) future NHL players..)? That lousy preseason tournament the NHL held two years ago on the other hand..

Well, sometimes a random stranger on the internet says the right things. There's is no rational reason for a hockey fan to prefer a nonsense tournament like the World Championship ahead of the World Cup.
And maybe you have numbers on how much money from the WHC that is given to hockey federations?

 

[Elvs]

Regarded as the highest level of international hockey aside from the Olympic, you say. By who? The fans perhaps, but they are simply wrong. How could a tournament without the best players be regarded like that?

Atas2000: It is funny how you dismiss the World Cup as some kind of cash machine for the NHL and cheers for the World Championship. That tournament is played every year to gain money for the oh so philantropic IIHF.

The best players doesn't necessarily make for the best competition. Otherwise the NHL all star game would be the greatest thing in hockey. No one is saying the IIHF are saints, but at least they are a neutral party. A league really shouldn't be the hosts of a tournament with national teams. Imagine Premier League hosting the World Cup in soccer... Anyway, I love international hockey so I'll still get behind another World Cup hosted by the NHL if they remove the gimmick teams. The fact that the likes of Connor McDavid and Auston Matthews can end up facing their own country in the finals is a complete farse. Having Canadian and American referees judging games with team Canada and team USA playing is also a joke.

 

[Jahara]

And if the best players don't participate it will still just be a nonsense tournament. The same thing might be said about the World Juniors but to a smaller extent.
It is not like any football fan bother that much about the Olympic tournament that is much like the World Championship. Teams with talents and some older players added. It might be fun if you like the sport but the result doesn't say much.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Well, sometimes a random stranger on the internet says the right things. There's is no rational reason for a hockey fan to prefer a nonsense tournament like the World Championship ahead of the World Cup.
And maybe you have numbers on how much money from the WHC that is given to hockey federations?

Calling it a World Cup doesn't make it a World Cup. As Atas has pointed out, it's an NHL-tournament.

You say there's no rational reason for hockey fans to prefer the IIHF World Championships over the NHL World Cup? So far, you seem to be the only one here who thinks that way. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong? Or are you the type of person that thinks everyone else is wrong?

 

[Jahara]

Canada Cup was a better name but it is not like the name is a big issue. Or when does it get a World Cup? Calling it a World Championship, does it make it a World Championship even tough the tournament is nonsense?

And what would be the the rational reason preferring World Championship ahead of World Cup? A tournament with B grade players simply can't be better than one with all the best.

 

[Elvs]

Canada Cup was a better name but it is not like the name is a big issue. Or when does it get a World Cup? Calling it a World Championship, does it make it a World Championship even tough the tournament is nonsense?

Pretty much every sport has a "World Championship", hosted by a federation similar to IIHF, instead of a league like the NHL. It's a World Championship because IIHF is the official federation for international ice hockey competition.

And what would be the the rational reason preferring World Championship ahead of World Cup? A tournament with B grade players simply can't be better than one with all the best.

Most people in the audience and most people watching games home on the TV are casual hockey fans. Casual hockey fans can't tell the differance between A grade players and B grade players upon first view, and so they don't care. People just wanna watch good hockey, and the World Championship is the best hockey that's being played in Europe. Casual fans don't go up in the middle of the night to watch the NHL, and so they are happy when they get the chance to see guys like Jakub Voracek, Nicklas Backstrom and Aleksander Barkov represent their countries during hours that works with their life schedules.

By your logic, I guess no one should watch the SHL or Liiga. I mean why would anyone when the best players are in the NHL? Many casual fans even prefer to see some of the SHL and Liiga players fill out the 3rd and 4th lines in the World Championship over NHL'ers. The likes of Linus Omark and Joakim Lindstrom are more famous in Sweden than 90% of the Swedish players in the NHL.

 

[Atas2000]

Regarded as the highest level of international hockey aside from the Olympic, you say. By who? The fans perhaps, but they are simply wrong. How could a tournament without the best players be regarded like that?

Atas2000: It is funny how you dismiss the World Cup as some kind of cash machine for the NHL and cheers for the World Championship. That tournament is played every year to gain money for the oh so philantropic IIHF.

The IIHF is the only truly international body in hockey. Period. Nobody cares if they make money or not just like the NHL as long as they provide us with what they were made for: international hockey. The NHL doesn't have that purpose(just like any other naional league in Europe.) I have no idea how it would be appropriate for say KHL to organize a World Anything. If they manage to organize a tournament that draws sincere interest, not because the stupid backward fans have to understand the tides of times and embrace the change our sect is bringing them, but because they are genuinely into it, it would be a nice thing. But how would it be okay to start crapping on the IIHF or any other tournament and claiming this tournament organized by a local org with no international authority is bigger than anything that s actually international?

IIHF, FIFA, IOC and whatever orgs the NA sports syndicate is trying to uproot are too big to handle for them. It will be a hilarious tale of Sisyphus to behold.

I do cheer for the World Champonship because it's fun, fair, promotes the sport and is truly international, not because the IIHF makes money with ot or not.

When the NHL sabotages the Olympics(and should be severely punished for it. I would suspend all NHL players from all IIHF events indefinitely. Inb4 your question: I will "survive" the absence of the "best" players for a decade if that needs to be done to put the NHL in line with other national leagues) it's he opposite of fun and fair, hurts the development of the sport in general and is an egocentric dick move by an org that thinks it is bigger than the world. The fact that it is all being based(at least in the open) on money issues is only adding to those factors and not the cornerstone of concern really.

 

[Jon Riley]

Well, sometimes a random stranger on the internet says the right things.

Yeah, sorry if I am blunt, but that is not you. Not in this case at least.

 

[Jahara]

Pretty much every sport has a "World Championship", hosted by a federation similar to IIHF, instead of a league like the NHL. It's a World Championship because IIHF is the official federation for international ice hockey competition.

Most people in the audience and most people watching games home on the TV are casual hockey fans. Casual hockey fans can't tell the differance between A grade players and B grade players upon first view, and so they don't care. People just wanna watch good hockey, and the World Championship is the best hockey that's being played in Europe. Casual fans don't go up in the middle of the night to watch the NHL, and so they are happy when they get the chance to see guys like Jakub Voracek, Nicklas Backstrom and Aleksander Barkov represent their countries during hours that works with their life schedules.

By your logic, I guess no one should watch the SHL or Liiga. I mean why would anyone when the best players are in the NHL? Many casual fans even prefer to see some of the SHL and Liiga players fill out the 3rd and 4th lines in the World Championship over NHL'ers. The likes of Linus Omark and Joakim Lindstrom are more famous in Sweden than 90% of the Swedish players in the NHL.

And pretty much every sport has a World Championship with all the best player participating. It is not like any football fan would get going about a Fifa World Cup if it was lacking all the best players. That is pretty basic and logical. If a casual hockey fan can't tell the difference and don't care about if the best players is around, something is obviously wrong. And yes, my logic is right that SHL and Liiga should have lower status since the best players is not there. Or would you prefer the Czech league over KHL? I know it is difficult with the time difference and geographical reasons but I prefer quality. Omark and Lindström might be well known in Sweden but that is just since they didn't get a place in NHL.

The IIHF is the only truly international body in hockey. Period. Nobody cares if they make money or not just like the NHL as long as they provide us with what they were made for: international hockey. The NHL doesn't have that purpose(just like any other naional league in Europe.) I have no idea how it would be appropriate for say KHL to organize a World Anything. If they manage to organize a tournament that draws sincere interest, not because the stupid backward fans have to understand the tides of times and embrace the change our sect is bringing them, but because they are genuinely into it, it would be a nice thing. But how would it be okay to start crapping on the IIHF or any other tournament and claiming this tournament organized by a local org with no international authority is bigger than anything that s actually international?

IIHF, FIFA, IOC and whatever orgs the NA sports syndicate is trying to uproot are too big to handle for them. It will be a hilarious tale of Sisyphus to behold.

I do cheer for the World Champonship because it's fun, fair, promotes the sport and is truly international, not because the IIHF makes money with ot or not.

When the NHL sabotages the Olympics(and should be severely punished for it. I would suspend all NHL players from all IIHF events indefinitely. Inb4 your question: I will "survive" the absence of the "best" players for a decade if that needs to be done to put the NHL in line with other national leagues) it's he opposite of fun and fair, hurts the development of the sport in general and is an egocentric dick move by an org that thinks it is bigger than the world. The fact that it is all being based(at least in the open) on money issues is only adding to those factors and not the cornerstone of concern really.

Why bother that much about what organ is is that is organizing a tournament. The main thing is that we actually GET TO SEE A BEST-ON-BEST TOURNAMENT. That is what the hockey fans should strive for and be more sceptical about all those half measure tournaments like World Championship and EHT. But as long as people are not more questioning about this thing, it just passes and keeps on being in the same way.

Yeah, sorry if I am blunt, but that is not you. Not in this case at least.

No person here or anywhere else has not given any rational reason for preferring a World Championship over a World Cup. It is like having the choice to get any car you want and picking a 12 year old and used one with motor issues over a brand new. Simply stupid.

 

[Jon Riley]

No person here or anywhere else has not given any rational reason for preferring a World Championship over a World Cup.

There were plenty of them, you just choose not to accept them.
On one thing I am with you, though.
Everyone should be (and actually are) interested in a real best on best international tournament.
That has to be a real best on best tournament, though. At the moment the World championship is not one of them, but the World cup is far far way more distant to it.
First of all is not even an international tournament.
Then, it has rules that prevent certain teams to pick freely among their players while other teams can do that.
At least at the world championship every team is subject to the same set of rules, a thing that is quite important for the credibility of a tournament.
No real meaningful best on best tournament will ever happen without a cooperation between NHL and IIHF. For that to happen, NHL has to at least drop that moronic idea of abomination teams and stick to national teams.

 

[Jahara]

There were plenty of them, you just choose not to accept them.
On one thing I am with you, though.
Everyone should be (and actually are) interested in a real best on best international tournament.
That has to be a real best on best tournament, though. At the moment the World championship is not one of them, but the World cup is far far way more distant to it.
First of all is not even an international tournament.
Then, it has rules that prevent certain teams to pick freely among their players while other teams can do that.
At least at the world championship every team is subject to the same set of rules, a thing that is quite important for the credibility of a tournament.
No real meaningful best on best tournament will ever happen without a cooperation between NHL and IIHF. For that to happen, NHL has to at least drop that moronic idea of abomination teams and stick to national teams.

How can I accept them if they are weak. You say that a real World Cup is far far away and that is a big exaggeration. The best six INTERNATIONAL teams is playing and it was just the last time two mixed teams was around. The rules was handicapping USA a bit but Canada could win it anyway. Every other team had their chance. But it is true that Team NA was wrong.
And just some cooperation between NHL and IIHF is not what would make it meaningful. It is meaningful when all the best players is around, unlike the World Championship.

 

[Elvs]

And pretty much every sport has a World Championship with all the best player participating. It is not like any football fan would get going about a Fifa World Cup if it was lacking all the best players. That is pretty basic and logical.

Most sports yes, but there's still more than you think. Snowmobile racing for instance does not have the best drivers available for the World Championship as they are busy driving in the ISOC Series. Your FIFA comparison is a moot point. No one here is arguing that the World Championship wouldn't be better with all the best players available. We were discussing why the World Championship, even without many of the best players, can still be entertaining for those who like international competition and doesn't get many chances to see it.

You make it sound like ALL the best players in the world are missing from the tournament which is straight up false. For instance Sweden has had great teams in the last couple of tournaments. Right on par with the best NHL teams or even better. Why should the people of Sweden, who otherwise don't get a chance to see these guys play, be discouraged from watching them play and rooting for them to win gold? Sorry, you come across as a pretty selfish hockey fan who wants to dictate what others should like and not like. Same thing when you don't want Switzerland and Slovakia in the World Cup, as you don't care about their hockey fans, but still want to borrow their best players for team Europe just for your own amusement.

If a casual hockey fan can't tell the difference and don't care about if the best players is around, something is obviously wrong.

Is it though? There's only a select few players in the NHL that stands out every game. In a short tournament it's not always so apparent who the best players are. Just take a look at the NHL currently. Jason Pominville has 14 points in 15 games. Max Pacioretty has 2 points in 11 games. You and me know who the better player is because we follow the NHL on a daily basis. The average hockey viewer in Europe doesn't. I mean, before the 2016 World Cup, did you think Jaroslav Halak would be the best goalie (and arguably player) in the tournament? My point is the difference between players isn't that apparent over a small sample size, let alone one game. It becomes apparent over time, as in the NHL with an 82 game schedule

And yes, my logic is right that SHL and Liiga should have lower status since the best players is not there. Or would you prefer the Czech league over KHL? I know it is difficult with the time difference and geographical reasons but I prefer quality. Omark and Lindström might be well known in Sweden but that is just since they didn't get a place in NHL.

So you wish less people would be fans of the SHL? How do you think that affects hockey in Sweden and the development of players long term? Classic example of not seeing the forest because of all the trees. Your question about the Czech league vs the KHL is irrelevant. I'm Swedish. The KHL is better than the SHL but I'll watch the SHL over it. Many people feel the same about the SHL vs the NHL. I'm a huge NHL fan so I'm not one of them, but I can't blame people who wants to watch and root for a team that's in their city or close to the city they live in. Even though the SHL has players inferior to the NHL, I understand why people want to watch it.

Do you also wish the AHL audience was empty? I mean, why would ANYONE watch Cleveland play in the AHL when they can watch Columbus, who isn't far away, play in the NHL? Could it be because fans in Cleveland like to go to hockey games and support the team that's representing their city? Hmm...