Are we too hardwired by conventional defense when looking at the Avs defensive needs?

umdieecke*

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As most of you know the Avs are the only team in the NHL that run a man to man defense. For this reason, the traditional roles don't necessarily best apply to the Avs. I think most of us recognize that a typical Avs defensemen should have a requisite defensive awareness, skating ability, and make good decisions under pressure. These seem to be the three skills that are most paramount for an Avs defenseman.

But in various discussion I see Avs fans trying to slot defensemen according to more traditional roles. Is that really appropriate?

When you're the only team that has a certain style, its easy for the minds eye to want to see the Avs the same way we see the others. I think we can all agree the Avs defense is a work in progress.

The Avs made it work with a defensive group that were largely seen as AHL players. But they're AHL players according to more traditional defensive roles. Because the Avs defensive system emphasizes certain attributes differently, it can find someone like Holden who has more value to the Avs than he does to other NHL teams. It's only to the lesser extent that Holden "finally got a chance to show what he can do" but to a larger extent it was more about, "he finally found a team where his strengths meant more and his weaknesses meant less."

So, Roy has only been in Colorado for one year. He's had almost no time to fill out the defense with the players that are best suited for the system he runs. So my question is, what do you see being the ultimate set up for the Avs defense? Will it still be tethered to more traditional roles or will it look different because of the skillsets that are most important to make it work?
 

CobraAcesS

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He said it in the press conference, they seem to like the Offensive guy with a stay at home physical defender.

I don't think that means 'small' offensive guy with a stay at home physical defender either, and your not going to last long on this team unless you can skate at an average or above average level.
 

Freudian

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No matter what defensive system you use, you need skilled players and you need players that can skate and move the puck. Avs defense had problems with Wild forecheck. Imagine how it would have looked against Kings.

Avs need better defenders.
 

R S

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Sep 18, 2006
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No matter what defensive system you use, you need skilled players and you need players that can skate and move the puck. Avs defense had problems with Wild forecheck. Imagine how it would have looked against Kings.

Avs need better defenders.

This.

It's even more apparent if you are committed to play a man to man coverage system. You need guys that can move on the ice.

That's partly why I am so shocked by the love Roy has shown for guys like Holden and Guenin. They don't move all that well.
 

umdieecke*

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The defensive group only worked because Varlamov made it work. If Varlamov was even average we wouldnt have had the pleasure of being in the playoffs.

I saw something completely different than you in the playoffs. I saw players make poor decisions with the puck because they werent able to skate their way out of trouble and give themselves enough time and space to make allow themselves to make good decisions with the puck. If more defensemen would have had better mobility, they could have either skated the puck up the ice themselves or given themselves more room to make a good decision with their pass.

As a result of being such poor skaters, they constantly made harried decisions, with the default bad decision being to constantly force it up ice along the boards. The Wild new the Avs struggled were this and were constantly there to intercept the puck and go back on offense.
 

Avs For Life

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No matter what defensive system you use, you need skilled players and you need players that can skate and move the puck. Avs defense had problems with Wild forecheck. Imagine how it would have looked against Kings.

Avs need better defenders.

Well said. We had trouble exiting the zone many times this year. Anyone remember the PHX game that we were ahead going into the 3rd. I think we spent 18 minutes in our zone (exaggeration), and that was against PHX...
 
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umdieecke*

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No matter what defensive system you use, you need skilled players and you need players that can skate and move the puck. Avs defense had problems with Wild forecheck. Imagine how it would have looked against Kings.

Avs need better defenders.

There are different gradations here. There's we need to have fewer poor defenders. But then there's, what's the ideal type of defender. What you said, largely addresses the former. I guess Im asking more about the latter.
 

PAZ

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There are different gradations here. There's we need to have fewer poor defenders. But then there's, what's the ideal type of defender. What you said, largely addresses the former. I guess Im asking more about the latter.

The type of defender that's suited for today's NHL. There isn't a protypical type of defender that would suit our needs. Preferably we would want stay at home defender or a two way defender since we already have EJ and Barrie on the team, with Elliot still possibly panning out.

It's honestly simple. You need a defender that can make an outlet pass, that can defend, mobile, and be good defensively. That's the type of defender any type of system needs. Some systems bring out the best of players, but the good defenders are the ones that have the skills to adapt.

Now if the question is what type of depth defenders would be ideal, that's where there's a discussions to be had.
 

linusandvarlamov

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Boy, after having watched the press conference on the Avalanche site this morning, I feel a whole lot better about our situation ! I have total confidence in Sakic and Roy. These guys know what they're doing !

I love the way Roy approached our situation on Defense. Roy and Sakic are looking at LA's defense ; and when you look at their D, not all of it is superstar caliber. Roy was talking about a mix of players (that's what he saw in LA's D).

Kings :

Doughty : 2nd overall - 1st round 2008

Greene : 44th overall - 2nd round 2002

Martinez : 95th overall - 4th round 2007 (know here's an example of not rushing things like Roy said and picking players that will develop rapidly). This guy was cluch for the Kings in the playoffs (scoring the OT goal to win the cup and the goal to advance to the finals).

Mitchell : 199th overall - 8th round 1996

Muzzin :141st overall - 5th round 2007 (similar to Martinez's situation)

Voynov : 32nd overall - 2nd round 2008

---------

Roy seems to think we have half of the building blocks, half of the mix in :

Avalanche :

Johnson : 1st overall - 1st round 2006 (our Doughty in some ways)

Barrie : 64th overall - 3rd round 2009 (It seems to me that a lot of great defensemen are initially drafted in the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds ; a team sees something in them and they develop very well in the NHL ; if we give some time to likes of Elliott, Bigras and maybe Siemens, I'm sure we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Holden : was intially signed as a free agent by Columbus.

-------

I'm pleased Roy wants to make this a process, and not rush things. Sakic and Roy don't seem to be necessarily interested in the big star defensemen ; and I'm with them !
 

the_fan

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Avs have a horrible defensive system which constantly gets pinned in their own zone and gets dominated by giving up tons of shots and scoring chances against. And they always rely on goalie to bail them out.
 

umdieecke*

Guest
Just for reference the Avs aren't the only team to play man to man defence. The Wings also play man to man and I believe another team in the East does as well.

Are you sure? This was something that was announced during the playoffs.
 

umdieecke*

Guest
The type of defender that's suited for today's NHL. There isn't a protypical type of defender that would suit our needs. Preferably we would want stay at home defender or a two way defender since we already have EJ and Barrie on the team, with Elliot still possibly panning out.

It's honestly simple. You need a defender that can make an outlet pass, that can defend, mobile, and be good defensively. That's the type of defender any type of system needs. Some systems bring out the best of players, but the good defenders are the ones that have the skills to adapt.

Now if the question is what type of depth defenders would be ideal, that's where there's a discussions to be had.

I find it hard to believe that certain attributes wouldnt be more important than others if you'er running this system. Man would seem to require a suddeness that another system might not--making skating more important. It's also more important to be aware of both your man and the situation.

Having said that, if you put such an emphasis on skating, it's conceivable that you might encounter lines where all the forwards are huge and you might have trouble moving them from a spot in front of the net.

Ideally everyone would be good skaters but at the very least, youd have 4 defensmen who can really skate and 2 guys for the scenario where another team puts a large line out there. You'd kind of need a couple of stronger guys for that scenario. It could be more about matchups than set in stone lines.
 

The Kingslayer

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I saw something completely different than you in the playoffs. I saw players make poor decisions with the puck because they werent able to skate their way out of trouble and give themselves enough time and space to make allow themselves to make good decisions with the puck. If more defensemen would have had better mobility, they could have either skated the puck up the ice themselves or given themselves more room to make a good decision with their pass.

As a result of being such poor skaters, they constantly made harried decisions, with the default bad decision being to constantly force it up ice along the boards. The Wild new the Avs struggled were this and were constantly there to intercept the puck and go back on offense.

You read what I wrote completely wrong. I have stated on many occasions our defense sucks and the only reason it didnt get Shattenkirk'd on more was because Varlamov covered up for alot of their mistakes. If Varly was average we be more then screwed.
 

Lonewolfe2015

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Avs have a horrible defensive system which constantly gets pinned in their own zone and gets dominated by giving up tons of shots and scoring chances against. And they always rely on goalie to bail them out.

Our defensive inefficiencies are in large part due to our mobility issues on the back end. But the system we use masks the majority of them by using our strength up front to cover for our weaknesses on the backend. It's not something that will bring success in the long term and will get exposed in a 7 game series against good teams, but overall it'll keep the team afloat until they upgrade the defense.
 

shadow1

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Nov 29, 2008
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Colorado does legitimately need better defenders, regardless of system.

EJ, Barrie, and Holden could be long term options, but Hejda is in the twilight of his career.

Erik Johnson can play 23 solid minutes, but the team is still going to suffer when a guy like Nate Guenin frequently struggled in his 15 minutes.
 

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