Are we pulling the chute on the tank?

[Karate Johnson*]

But you do see a difference between saying "teams don't use 'getting the #1 pick' as a strategy" and saying that it "may not be a good strategy", correct?

When discussing any strategy as an option you operate under the assumption that it will be successful.

Building a winner around high draft picks is a successful strategy. It has also faled.


Any strategy can be portrayed as a bad one if you assume it will fail.

 

[haseoke39]

Let's put it this way: I'd rather take my chances between ending up as Edmonton or Chicago than sit pretty in the middle forever.

 

[Royisgone]

To answer the question asked in the title of this thread:

NO.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Let's put it this way: I'd rather take my chances between ending up as Edmonton or Chicago than sit pretty in the middle forever.

Amen.

That was always my problem with Darcy.... I never thought he was comfortable with "going for it" Even when we had great teams, he never sold the future to push them over the edge.

 

[couture23]

Do they not think Devine is suitable for a lead GM role? Or maybe they talked with him and he likes his position?

Anyone hear anything?

 

[Ruckus007]

that's never been the issue...
(any strategy may not be a good strategy if in hindsight it doesn't work)

one strong voice here has continually hammered their belief (as if it were fact) that teams DON'T use getting the #1 pick as a franchise building strategy. Pegula has basically confirmed, that that is in fact part of their strategy.

Listening to the PC as we speak, haven't gotten to that part yet but no reason to believe otherwise.

The problem with the #1 pick strategy is it puts an emphasis on the least controllable aspect of the rebuild: the lottery. The most controllable aspect, IMO, is what you do with the young assets in your organization. Followed by who you draft and then where you draft.

I think agree with me on this fact: the young players on this team are paramount. If getting the top choice in the lottery means risking busting them out, I'm not for it, personally. If developing means the 6th pick instead of 1 or 2, I'm fine with that. Racing to the bottom isn't a strategy, IMO, it's part of one. I disagree with the implication that is is one.

And I'll let josh make his own arguments. I'm uninterested in what your opinion of him is.

 

[haseoke39]

Joshjull and I (hyper pro tank) have really come to some agreement recently. I think he is fine with tearing apart the roster to draft high as long as there's an accompanying focus on developing our existing youth well.

 

[Djp]

This is a bad team but was also a bad, directionless team. Changes needed to be made, but that does not mean they will magically be that much better. The roster is talent poor and it will be a challenge to win night -to-night.

I don't see this move turning the tide in the won-loss column. I amazed to say this, but Nolan was a better coach than Rolston -- and I don't think much of Nolan's abilities as an X's and O's guy.

"talent poor" no.

Young and inexperienced.....yes

 

[Ruckus007]

"talent poor" no.

Young and inexperienced.....yes

Let's be fair, it is pretty talent poor too.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Joshjull and I (hyper pro tank) have really come to some agreement recently. I think he is fine with tearing apart the roster to draft high as long as there's an accompanying focus on developing our existing youth well.

Tanking and drafting the best playerz evr!! aren't the endgame of a tank and draft high strategy.

You gut the team, you are bad and get high draft picks for a year or so.

You draft franchise players.

By gutting the team you also have cap space.

You develop your newly drafted franchise players.

You use the cheap young talent and use your financial resources to compliment those yong fracnhise players.

You get lucky with some role players stepping up in the layoffs.

You get some bounces.

You win the cup.


Its oversimplified all to often.

 

[Jacob582]

Do they not think Devine is suitable for a lead GM role? Or maybe they talked with him and he likes his position?

Anyone hear anything?

I'm sure they don't think Devine is a candidate for the GM role. Devine is Darcy's guy gong way back. For now he has a job.

 

[Jame]

Listening to the PC as we speak, haven't gotten to that part yet but no reason to believe otherwise.

The problem with the #1 pick strategy is it puts an emphasis on the least controllable aspect of the rebuild: the lottery. The most controllable aspect, IMO, is what you do with the young assets in your organization. Followed by who you draft and then where you draft.

I agree
that doesn't change the fact that the least controllable aspect, is the most desirable commodity. and this franchise wants that commodity

I think agree with me on this fact: the young players on this team are paramount. If getting the top choice in the lottery means risking busting them out, I'm not for it, personally. If developing means the 6th pick instead of 1 or 2, I'm fine with that. Racing to the bottom isn't a strategy, IMO, it's part of one. I disagree with the implication that is is one.

racing to the bottom is PART of a strategy... i agree again.

And I'll let josh make his own arguments. I'm uninterested in what your opinion of him is.

Joshjull insisted that getting a top pick (by tanking) is not a strategy... to him, it's just an outcome... and an outcome that is largely the combination of only 2 things : Bad Ownership and Luck (lottery)... and we just learned that it is part of their strategy. They can't plan for the luck part... but they are certainly have been planning to give themselves the best shot possible

Joshjull and I (hyper pro tank) have really come to some agreement recently. I think he is fine with tearing apart the roster to draft high as long as there's an accompanying focus on developing our existing youth well.

yes, I think we are all in agreement with that.

I'm raising a "pre-rolston" position that joshjull has held regarding team building strategies and organizational intent. It's the combination of two beliefs... and those beliefs turned out to be wrong regarding pegula/sabres/direction.

i dont like the semantics of using the phrase "intentionally lose"... but, they are intentionally tanking... and they are doing it because they want a top pick to build around

 

[Gabrielor]

The tank appears to be more than safe. Honestly, a few of those statements, without being too selective on my hearing, bascially screamed "...so there's this McDavid kid who's apparently the next generation's star guy...our play is to get him..."

Obviously, they'll have to work out the details. I had faith in the tank when Darcy was here. I continue to have faith in it with his departure.

 

[flashsabre]

We will probably win a few more games and be more entertaining but this isn't a move that will take us out of a good drafting spot.

The bigger issue with the rebuild was our kids getting ruined and not progressing the way they need to.

Hopefully Zadorov is sent back to junior and Larsson and Grigs get some more time.

Of everybody, Ted Nolan as coach will have the most impact on Grigs. He will show him how to work and be a pro. If he doesn't respond to Ted then you cut bait with the kid but I think he will and Nolan will build him up, help with his confidence.

 

[Ghost of Dale Hunter]

The scariest thing about all of this is that maybe the "tank" wasn't intentional. I think they knew they wouldn't be very good, but had no clue of the debacle it was going to become. If you think logically, that has to be the answer. I don't think any of them believed it would be this bad.

 

[Jame]

The scariest thing about all of this is that maybe the "tank" wasn't intentional. I think they knew they wouldn't be very good, but had no clue of the debacle it was going to become. If you think logically, that has to be the answer. I don't think any of them believed it would be this bad.

the tank was intentional

the issue was that Darcy believed Rolston, with experience with young players and development, would be capable of handling a room mixed with professionals and young players and lacking in talent. That he would be able to manage the day to day needs, growth, and compete levels and keep the culture in tact, while losing became widespread...

it's a difficult job... and Rolston was woeful in it

 

[haseoke39]

The Sabres collective brain trust wants a team that competes harder than it did under Rolston, but still finishes last.

Only way they get both is to deal some vets fast. There are some more shoes up there, waiting to drop.

 

[Jame]

The Sabres collective brain trust wants a team that competes harder than it did under Rolston, but still finishes last.

Only way they get both is to deal some vets fast. There are some more shoes up there, waiting to drop.

agreed.

all the cliches "intangibles" were bad:
compete level
culture
character
identity

im sure they believe they can correct that with Nolan, while trading Miller will preserve the tank.

 

[Ruckus007]

We will probably win a few more games and be more entertaining but this isn't a move that will take us out of a good drafting spot.

The bigger issue with the rebuild was our kids getting ruined and not progressing the way they need to.

Hopefully Zadorov is sent back to junior and Larsson and Grigs get some more time.

Of everybody, Ted Nolan as coach will have the most impact on Grigs. He will show him how to work and be a pro. If he doesn't respond to Ted then you cut bait with the kid but I think he will and Nolan will build him up, help with his confidence.

In Nolan's side PC he has an interesting comment about, basically, throwing teens directly into the NHL and that there was more to development than that. (it was made in reference to his son's experience in LA).

I'm not into making predictions, but it doesn't sound like he's keen on the idea of having some of these junior-eligible players still on the team. Will be interesting to see what roster moves are made.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

"talent poor" no.

Young and inexperienced.....yes

Yes on both accounts.

The Sabres don't have a single top 2 or probably even top 3 forward or true # 1 dman so their also talent poor.

In their own division look at the top of the lineup players Boston, Detroit, Ottawa, Tampa, Montreal, Tampa have and the Sabres outside of Miller don't have a single piece I'd say competes with the top 3 to possibly even 5 pieces those teams are built around.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

In Nolan's side PC he has an interesting comment about, basically, throwing teens directly into the NHL and that there was more to development than that. (it was made in reference to his son's experience in LA).

I'm not into making predictions, but it doesn't sound like he's keen on the idea of having some of these junior-eligible players still on the team. Will be interesting to see what roster moves are made.

Ted Nolan is bang on and it's always better to have a player a day late than a day early.