Are there still enough gold medal candidates?

[NyQuil]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this, as they by and large play on separate NHL teams as you'd expect with 30-32 NHL teams and Russians accounting for about 6 % of NHL players and the 'stars' only a smaller portion of that, so you'd expect them to be pretty spread out from each other.

But as far as integrating them together, there was obviously the 'Russian 5' (going back a ways) but the Capitals won a Cup with 2 Russian Forwards leading in scoring (Conn Smythe winner) and a #3 Russian D, while the Lightning won 2 Cups with a Russian Conn Smythe Goaltender, a Russian leading scorer (x2) and a Russian #3 D.

So I'm not sure you're "there can only be 1" theory is accurate.

I think that Russian “stars” make up a bigger percentage of their NHL representation than virtually any other major hockey country.

For whatever reason, they are drafted for offensive skill and (more recently) goaltending for the most part.

Even in your examples, they fulfilled those roles on those teams.

Can you make a complete team out of Russian NHLers?

I guess that’s the question. To me they seem rather specialized in terms of their skill sets.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think that Russian “stars” make up a bigger percentage of their NHL representation than virtually any other major hockey country.

For whatever reason, they are drafted for offensive skill and (more recently) goaltending for the most part.

Even in your examples, they fulfilled those roles on those teams.

Can you make a complete team out of Russian NHLers?

I guess that’s the question. To me they seem rather specialized in terms of their skill sets.

Sorry I am still not following the train of thought. If you are saying there is no 2-way god type post Datsyuk or true Norris candidate in a long time then yes that is true. Could you make a complete team out of Russian NHLers? Yes you would have ample forwards, defensemen and goaltenders to fill a roster. The question of roster construction being ideally suited for a theoretical best on best tournament or whatever is a different one but presumably would finish somewhere between second and fifth if they played a tournament out 1 million times. The biggest issue would be needing to move Wings to Center or reaching into the KHL to find good faceoffs options.

 

[NyQuil]

Sorry I am still not following the train of thought. If you are saying there is no 2-way god type post Datsyuk or true Norris candidate in a long time then yes that is true. Could you make a complete team out of Russian NHLers? Yes you would have ample forwards, defensemen and goaltenders to fill a roster. The question of roster construction being ideally suited for a theoretical best on best tournament or whatever is a different one but presumably would finish somewhere between second and fifth if they played a tournament out 1 million times.

This is pretty much where I’m coming from.

The names on Finland may not be as sexy but I have more confidence in their ability to deliver a strong team performance, whether at the WCs or some best-on-best scenario.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is pretty much where I’m coming from.

The names on Finland may not be as sexy but I have more confidence in their ability to deliver a strong team performance, whether at the WCs or some best-on-best scenario.

Yes, I suppose a lot of that is driven by circumstance. As you said, a bunch of dynamic high-scoring wingers can sort of be a bit redundant at some point, and of course having like 5 elite goaltenders is nice and all but at the end of the day in a single elimination tournament, there's only one guy that's actually in there, so for a country like Finland if a Saros is healthy and playing in good form, well that's all they could potentially need.

National soccer teams face this 'problem' sometimes. In certain snapshots, they may have a really nice overall collection of players but they don't always complement each other in an ideal fashion for international competition. Often in a more dramatic fashion, because the overall pool for global soccer talent is so large and so many countries can play at a competitive level. The England so-called "golden generation" of the 2000s with Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Terry, Beckham, etc. was a pretty good example of this.

 

[Old Man Jags]

So nobody is ever a candidate to do anything until they've done it? Brilliant.

You probably didn't think the Caps were a cup contender in 2018.

We have two non-candidates for the Stanley Cup in the Stanley Cup final.

 

[ViD]

Malkin had 83 points this year. Kuznetsov's decline is overstated, dude didn't have a good season but also shot at a career low 7% and had a career low on ice sh% as well. He's still very capable of producing 60-70 points.

Center is definitely their weakest position but they also have the best wingers on the planet which helps to offset that. USA is probably the only nation without a positional weakness relative to the others (Finland - defense & wing, Canada - goaltending, Sweden - wing & a bit at center).

Positionally, Russia probably ranks:
wingers - 1st
centers - 5th
defenseman - 4th
goaltenders - 1st

Sergachev led the Lightning in ice time this year, ahead of Hedman. He's very easily a #1 defenseman. He averaged 27 mins per game in the playoffs

79gp 10g 64p +13 23:49 TOI

Those are the numbers of a #1 defenseman. And he's the #1 defenseman on a top tier team. Provorov also led his team in TOI and was his team's #1 defenseman.

Orlov scored 30gp 4g 25p +7 22 minutes per game as a Bruin.

Zub and Gavrikov are legit top pairing shutdown defenseman.


Nobody is arguing their D is better than the two best nations in the world, but they can field a better group of D than Finland pretty easily. Heiskanen is the only Finnish D in the top 50 league defenseman in terms of TOI, Russia has 4 defenseman in the top 50. Jokiharju is the only other Finnish defenseman who averaged >20 mins last year, and he was 73rd in the league in TOI.


This is all sorts of ignorant.

During their last 12 WC/Olympic appearances, no nation has as many medals (8)

Russia (8)
2012 gold
2014 gold
2015 silver
2016 bronze
2017 bronze
2019 bronze
2018 gold (olympics)
2022 silver (olympics)

Canada (7)
2015 gold
2016 gold
2017 silver
2019 silver
2021 gold
2018 bronze (olympics)
2014 gold (olympics)

Finland (6)
2014 silver
2016 silver
2019 gold
2021 silver
2014 bronze (olympics)
2022 gold (olympics)

Sweden (5)
2013 gold
2014 bronze
2017 gold
2018 gold
2014 silver (olympics)



This is the last roster they sent to the WC (2021).

View attachment 714367
Are you telling me this is their best? 8 of their top 9 scorers aren't even playing in the NHL right now, and that 1 guy (Barabanov) probably doesn't even make Russia's best on best roster.

And they had none of their top 3 goalies. Samonov was their starter....
View attachment 714368

Huge advantage they had that year, let me tell ya.

Which is 5 tournaments, where they have pretty much never gotten their full complement of players, as you so mistakenly claim. For example, Vasilevsky, arguably the best goalie in the world over the last 5-7 years, was only present on 3 WC rosters since 2014. They medaled all 3 years (1 gold and 2 bronzes)

But in those last 5 tournaments, they were knocked out by Finland 2 times (outshot them in both games) and Canada 3 times (twice in OT, and the other was a very late 3rd period comeback by Canada). They won bronze in 3 of those years, and were undefeated in bronze medal games:

2016 - lost 3-1 in semifinal to Finland despite outshooting them 29-16.
Beat USA for bronze.
2017 - lost 4-2 (ENG) in semifinal to strong Canadian team led by Mackinnon, Marner, Point, ROR etc
Beat Finland for bronze.
2018 - lost 5-4 in OT in QFs to another strong Canadian team, led by McDavid, Barzal, Horvat, RNH etc.
2019 - lost 1-0 in semifinal to Finland.
Beat Czechs for bronze.
2021 - lost 2-1 in OT in QFs to Canada, they had none of their top players and weren't allowed to compete under their flag.

You are completely out to lunch here. Russia would very much be a threat to win gold in a best on best tournament

Beautiful post, bur no matter what you provide with facts, stats, it won’t be enough for guys like Garl who’s a well known Russian hockey doubter.

 

[ViD]

Let's also not act like Russia was the biggest contender to begin with, a couple of world junior golds in 2003 and 2004, then a long drought broken in 2011 followed by another period in the wilderness since. The decline of Russian hockey has been obvious, even before they were banned from competing.

If you judge by the gold medals, you’re correct, but Russia won more total medals than any other nation, so to say that Russian hockey has been in decline is a huge overstatement.

In no universe is Finland's lineup better than Russia's. The only position Finland has the advantage is center.

Goaltending - Russia.
No explanation needed.

Defense - Russia.
Finland is super thin beyond Heiskanen. While Russia lacks a true #1, Finland has nowhere the depth of Sergachev, Orlov, Provorov, etc.

Center - Finland
No explanation needed

Wing - Russia
Finland has nowhere near the top end talent or depth of a Kucherov, Kaprizov, Ovechkin, Svechnikov, Nichushkin, Panarin, Buchnevich, Tarasenko,

You’re absolutely correct

 

[ViD]

Last but not least, how did Russia win against Finland without NHL'ers with that 18/19 roster consisting of your three best goalies? Sergachev, Orlov, Zadorov? Ovechkin, Malkin, Dadonov, Kovalchuk, Gusev, Kaprizov etc? Yeah, they lost against Finland without any stars.
Funny how you then would think Russia would have a bigger chance when Malkin and Ovechkin were a lot better back then. Laughable.

Yes, that game was crazy and full credit to the Finnish team for executing a perfect game plan.

If we take best on best though, last time these teams met in 2016, Russia won rather comfortably

 

[Garl]

In no universe is Finland's lineup better than Russia's. The only position Finland has the advantage is center.

Goaltending - Russia.
No explanation needed.

Defense - Russia.
Finland is super thin beyond Heiskanen. While Russia lacks a true #1, Finland has nowhere the depth of Sergachev, Orlov, Provorov, etc.

Center - Finland
No explanation needed

Wing - Russia
Finland has nowhere near the top end talent or depth of a Kucherov, Kaprizov, Ovechkin, Svechnikov, Nichushkin, Panarin, Buchnevich, Tarasenko,

If this two teams meet Finland is a favourite, even though on paper based on names Russia is a bit better. Also, advantage of Finland at C is way higher than advantage Russia has on any other position
And yes, russian group is aging, you look only at under 30 group and wingers are roughly the same in terms of quality

 

[Garl]

Beautiful post, bur no matter what you provide with facts, stats, it won’t be enough for guys like Garl who’s a well known Russian hockey doubter.

Are you willing to make an argument that Russia didn't send their best to WC?
Picking up one tournament in 15 years doesn't prove that statement

 

[Gold Standard]

Are you willing to make an argument that Russia didn't send their best to WC?
Picking up one tournament in 15 years doesn't prove that statement

In addition Finnish teams are generally better coached and play a better team game than do the Russians.

Yes, bring on the next best on best tournament with the moron Roman as their coach. I'm looking forward to that debacle. Lucky for them they are currently banished to the wilderness. He'll most likely be washed out by the time they are allowed to compete again.

 

[Svedu]

Yes, that game was crazy and full credit to the Finnish team for executing a perfect game plan.

If we take best on best though, last time these teams met in 2016, Russia won rather comfortably

Yeah, quite pathetic to mention that. And there is many factors to that. First, Marjamäki will never coach a Finnish national team again. Second of all? Most of our stars were pretty young and not even considered as stars back then and that's the freaking point as well. Your biggest stars are declining and Finland star players are on a whole other level 2023 compared to 2016. You know things can change and that is has, the scenery is completely different nowadays.
Pretty funny because 2019 is only 4 years back and the similarities are more on point with having Jalonen as our coach.
Also, Ovechkin and Malkin have not become any better since 2016 nor 2019 so I guess your point is not that valid.

It's almost like I would state: But guess what? Finland should be better than Russia in a single playoff game and why I'm so convinced is because I do believe we would have an even greater chance to beat Russia if it were on a best of 7, and that there indicates how much of a changed scenery we have nowadays.
Why not add medals 2010 and 2014 and a gold these last OG's? Where was Russia? You get my point, not that relevant perhaps?

Actually quite funny you felt the need to bring that up, that there says everything in my world. Even you know things have changed. Only for the better for Finland and probably the opposite for Russia. I guess you are feeling it too and that's why you felt desperate with your irrelevant and almost irrational response? Good for you and have a nice one.

 

[Hanji]

In addition Finnish teams are generally better coached and play a better team game than do the Russians.

Yes, bring on the next best on best tournament with the moron Roman as their coach. I'm looking forward to that debacle. Lucky for them they are currently banished to the wilderness. He'll most likely be washed out by the time they are allowed to compete again.

I dont think a country has ever lived rent free in a posters head as much as Russia is in yours.
We get it, your wife ran off with Igor.

Lighten up yo!

 

[ViD]

Actually quite funny you felt the need to bring that up, that there says everything in my world. Even you know things have changed. Only for the better for Finland and probably the opposite for Russia. I guess you are feeling it too and that's why you felt desperate with your irrelevant and almost irrational response? Good for you and have a nice one.

Irrelevant and irrational response ? I gave credit where it was due for Finland winning 2019 gold with a non NHL team and stating a fact with the score of the last best on best game. Of course things have changed in 7 years, but since we have no new tournaments, I did provide the last actual best on best result.

 

[Czechboy]

Irrelevant and irrational response ? I gave credit where it was due for Finland winning 2019 gold with a non NHL team and stating a fact with the score of the last best on best game. Of course things have changed in 7 years, but since we have no new tournaments, I did provide the last actual best on best result.

Czechs beat the US at that tourney.

The finals had guys from all over Europe in it but not from Russia, Sweden, Finland or Czech.

McDavid played for Canada but not with Crosby.

Matthews played for the USA but not with Kane.

Matthews and McD were on the same team.

Strange tournament.

 

[SOLR]

NHL scouts might be not exactly agreeing with your decline theory if you'll look at the recent drafts.

Decline doesn't mean the country isn't producing talent anymore, it just means the competition does it better and integrates that talent together to win.

 

[member 305909]

It's funny how fickle some fans are. After all the success Finland now had a not so good tournament and now many people in Finland are saying how Jalonen's time is over and he should go.

 

[ORRFForever]

It's funny how fickle some fans are. After all the success Finland now had a not so good tournament and now many people in Finland are saying how Jalonen's time is over and he should go.

Welcome to Canada's world.

Imagine being Canadian. You win MOST of the time yet, every time you put out a new team, the fan base calls the team crap.