Are the Leafs built to compete and win?

[notDatsyuk]

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Reilly.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang.

Sure, maybe the Pens core was slightly better. But I’m not sure if their supporting cast was superior.

Was it easy for teams to “clog the middle” against the Pens? They won2 of the last 3 cups. Our elite players will adjust. Just like the Pens did. Reminder that we’re 6-3.

Just look at the four players picked from each team (and they are the right choices). Talent-wise, pretty much a wash, but look at style of play.

Matthews and Crosby: more physical? Crosby by a lot.

Tavares and Malkin: no contest, Malkin is a beast.

Marner and Kessel: much as I hate to say it, Kessel is the more physical player.

Reilly and Letang: same story again.

And you could probably go all the way down both lineups with the same answers - comparable skill, different style.

Hopefully the generally younger Leafs will adjust.

 

[ToneDog]

If we're evaluating based on the Bruins series what does that say about Matthews?

Not going to take this thread in another direction. Diceman has posted everything there is to know about Willie's game vs the Bruins.

 

[razkaz]

If we could graph the sentiment on these boards through a season there would only be peaks and valleys, no in between.

The team is facing it's first challenge in the early goings of the season. Let's see if they can fix it with their internal pieces before everyone suggests trading Nylander for Gudas.

 

[ToneDog]

Just look at the four players picked from each team (and they are the right choices). Talent-wise, pretty much a wash, but look at style of play.

Matthews and Crosby: more physical? Crosby by a lot.

Tavares and Malkin: no contest, Malkin is a beast.

Marner and Kessel: much as I hate to say it, Kessel is the more physical player.

Reilly and Letang: same story again.

And you could probably go all the way down both lineups with the same answers - comparable skill, different style.

Hopefully the generally younger Leafs will adjust.

You bet. Matthews will no doubt be more physical than Crosby when it is all said and done. JT was probably our best player vs Pens. Won many puck battles. Malkin's goal was a fluke but it takes high hockey IQ to make that play. Marner will never be a physical player but compared to Phil, he might be when it is all said and done. Same might be true for Rielly.

 

[ToneDog]

If we could graph the sentiment on these boards through a season there would only be peaks and valleys, no in between.

The team is facing it's first challenge in the early goings of the season. Let's see if they can fix it with their internal pieces before everyone suggests trading Nylander for Gudas.

Out of curiosity who suggested we trade Nylander for Gudas? If anything posters are asking for more than we can get for Nylander.

 

[razkaz]

Out of curiosity who suggested we trade Nylander for Gudas? If anything posters are asking for more than we can get for Nylander.

No one did, this is my hyperbole.

Again, this is the first time the team has 2 losses in a row and now people are questioning if they can even make the playoffs.

 

[Trapper]

You bet. Matthews will no doubt be more physical than Crosby when it is all said and done. JT was probably our best player vs Pens. Won many puck battles. Malkin's goal was a fluke but it takes high hockey IQ to make that play. Marner will never be a physical player but compared to Phil, he might be when it is all said and done. Same might be true for Rielly.

They will have a better time adjusting if the 3rd man on the line does it all the time.
Other than 1 man gang Matthews scoring, who is our best line?
Hyman...Tavares...Marner
Balance. Add 1 to Matthews/Nylander, add 1 to Kadri/Marleau or Kapanen.

Having Marleau + Kapanen or Lindholm + Brown/Ennis is too weak.

 

[Mess]

It tells me we need more Hyman.
Each line needs a whisky chaser.
Matthews needs a skilled heavy player on his line (because Bergeron/Marchand will play down low) and Kadri needs his Komarov back. Kadri is a tag team. He needs a little crazy in his game because passive Kadri is too passive.

More Hyman is exactly what this team needs and less figure skaters.

Nobody on the Leafs works harder and competes shift in and shift out like Hyman does, and its easy to see why he is among Babcock's favourite players because he always preaching "go to work" and "compete level" and that's preaching to choir in regards to Hyman.

Leafs have scored 19 ES 5v5 goals this year and 17 have come from just 4 players Matthews, Tavares, Marner and Kapanen. Babcock wants Kappy to play more like Hyman does.

Leafs bottom 6 get nothing done at ES.

 

[ToneDog]

Gotta win those puck battles. There is time but it would help if Dubas could acquire another power forward.

 

[Tak7]

naw,, your just wrong

this roster can win a cup this year

I don't think they can.

A round or two, sure.

But I don't think they have a strong enough blueline, and feel they are WAY too soft, to win consistently in the playoffs.

Happy to be proven wrong. Pretty certain I won't be.

 

[Trapper]

More Hyman is exactly what this team needs and less figure skaters.

Nobody on the Leafs works harder and competes shift in and shift out like Hyman does, and its easy to see why he is among Babcock's favourite players because he always preaching "go to work" and "compete level" and that's preaching to choir in regards to Hyman.

Leafs have scored 19 ES 5v5 goals this year and 17 have come from just 4 players Matthews, Tavares, Marner and Kapanen. Babcock wants Kappy to play more like Hyman does.

Leafs bottom 6 get nothing done at ES.

Leafs bottom 6 is another story in itself.
Lindholm + Brown are neither playing heavy nor generating offense.
At least Goat + Leivo are giving us a little cycle but will be hard pressed to ever score a goal. Same with Ennis. And at the moment Johnsson.

Babcock had the luxury of some forwards like the Mule and Holmstrom in his day to compliment. Kadri badly needs an agitator with some skill on his line. Kadri needs to play on the edge and he needs someone to goes with him. Marleau should probably be on the 3rd line as he now assumes the JVR role. He is not the physical presence Matthews needs. My fear is Matthews just gets leaned on for 82 games. He needs a Shanahan on his wing.

 

[Myopic]

WTF is up with Connor Brown? His compete level has gone down a notch or two this year and that is his bread and butter. He used to compete like Hyman shift after shift. Brown was a high scoring skilled player in the OHL and sometimes those guys don't want to give that dream up. He must play like a skilled grinder to stick in the league.

 

[hector morrison]

But those guys did contribute. Komarov might of shot a pass wide of the net, but that doesn't mean he wasn't usually on the right side of the puck. Or that he didn't hit. If you start ranking forwards based on the performance to keep the puck out of their own net, Komarov was a star forward on the team. Just the type of player some GM trying to recreate the boring trap Devils-style team would love to have. Bozak was a decent enough playmaker. At one point we had Nylander/Marner/Bozak running a line. This year, it's Matthews and Tavares/Marner. The play-making depth is hurting the 3rd line. In that category, our depth isn't any better with Nylander gone. It's great we have Tavares, but his salary means you're playing someone like Josh Leivo. With the Leafs early explosion in offense, those two combine for 1.4 pts/game. JVR and Bozak had 1.2 pts/game last season. Yes there has been additions, but there has been subtractions as well. Since 2009, John Tavares has recorded 643 giveaways. 75 more then Bozak, JVR, and Komarov combined. Tavares isn't getting treated like Jake Gardiner because he's new. We don't have years of accumulated memories of him messing up either.

Thee is much you are not considering,or intentionally leaving out!
JVR got paid(over paid,I should say) more than the Leafs were willing to give him. Bozaks best days are well behind him and he also is not worth what St. Louis is paying him. Komarov ,(loved his game) was way to slow and ineffective last year ! Younger options were/are the order of the day! At some point a team needs to infuse new players. It isn't gonna be smooth transition,unless you're lucky with your late round picks.
Tavares is so much better than those three guys. As far as stats like 'give aways ,consider the QofC that Tavares has seen over the course of his career compared to the run of the mill players the 3 that left saw! Big difference there!
Also, it really is a fools perspective to jump to conclusions about the make -up of this team so early in the season! Maybe after 20 games,some observations can be worth noting,but this team,in spite of the expectations and excitement is still a 'work in progress'. Willy is just one piece of the puzzle,but a good one. He will help make the team better or he will bring assets that will help. Other newcomers to the team also need to go around the league once to get an honest sense of what the NHL really is and where/if they fit in.
I don't miss Bozak at all,or the one trick pony JVR. Komarov was done,you can't play like he does forever! If he has recuperated somewhat ,then good for him. As mentioned,these guys weren't gonna play for free!
Going forward ,Leafs are better off!You will see!

 

[jfc64]

Leafs are built to squeeze in a whole generation of stars by force into a time glass.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The forwards are fine. Yes some nights they need to compete harder that's true. The issue has always been and will continue to be about our defense. We have ZERO ability to stop the cycle in our own end, we have ZERO ability to withstand a fast and heavy forecheck, we have ZERO ability to keep opposing forwards from gaining access to the kill zone (blue ice) and we have too many guys who are afraid to take a big hit to make a simple breakout pass. You need as a defense to bring the attacker close to you before making the pass to give room to your forwards to properly break up ice. That means you have to be willing to absorb a hit to make a play. Our defense unload too quickly to avoid taking the big hit. It takes courage to play defense and we collectively just don't have it.

These are personnel issues.

There are also some breakout system issues too. We need to simply the breakout and we require more support from our wingers to help out a deficient defense.

When you score 6+ goals all of these issues get hidden. But in playoffs when ice closes down and time and space do not exist then these issues all show up in spades.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

The forwards are fine. Yes some nights they need to compete harder that's true. The issue has always been and will continue to be about our defense. We have ZERO ability to stop the cycle in our own end, we have ZERO ability to withstand a fast and heavy forecheck, we have ZERO ability to keep opposing forwards from gaining access to the kill zone (blue ice) and we have too many guys who are afraid to take a big hit to make a simple breakout pass. You need as a defense to bring the attacker close to you before making the pass to give room to your forwards to properly break up ice. That means you have to be willing to absorb a hit to make a play. Our defense unload too quickly to avoid taking the big hit. It takes courage to play defense and we collectively just don't have it.

These are personnel issues.

There are also some breakout system issues too. We need to simply the breakout and we require more support from our wingers to help out a deficient defense.

When you score 6+ goals all of these issues get hidden. But in playoffs when ice closes down and time and space do not exist then these issues all show up in spades.

Apparently you're not allowed to ask the question I just asked. Interesting. Are you by chance related to "Gramps"?

 

[Havoc]

Matthews may not have been 100%. Even if he was 100%, I like his chances of bouncing back over Nylander's. Matthews has proven to be a game changer and hence why he slots with Eichel, Tavares and some say McDavid while Nylander slots with Ehlers.

Then what are your thoughts on Nylander winning rookie of the month twice and in a crucial moment when it was looking like we were going to get beat for the wild card? Take Nylander away from this team and we don't enjoy playoff hockey two seasons ago. A non-game changer can do that? At that age!??!??! He was just leaving his teens.

You are confident given the WHOLE picture, Nylander is not a core, game changing piece? What about when he's in his prime around 25-26? You're willing to throw that away because of one bad series when he was still basically a kid? In years he's an adult yes, but within the realm of strong grown athletes around him, he is very much still a kid.

What about guys like Malkin who disappeared at the same age because they were to young to handle the full NHL grind + playoffs. Would you have the same thoughts on Malkin?

I don't think you would. You would justify why it's okay Malkin disappeared. Simple google shows you pens swept 4-0 by Sens. Malkin played horrible. There were news articles out how the grind got to him.

Boston is a cup contending team. If Nylander at his age was able to walk circles around the big bad bruins, he'd have went 1/1 in his draft and would be a generational player.

He's elite but not generational and definitely capable of being shut down by a cup contender in the playoffs, especially when our best player is hurt. That's why you need solid veterans like Marchand and Bergeron.

Take away Pastrnak's veterans and he gets shut down 10/10 times by other teams. I'd take my odds letting the rest of the Bruins go 1 on 1 with the rest of the team as long as I know Pastrnak is getting smothered. We wouldn't even be discussing this guy so much on our forums if we replaced Marchand and Berg with two other 20-21 year olds instead. We'd have swept that team and went straight to the Bolts.

What do the Leafs finally have? They went and found themselves their own veteran all star in Tavares.

We now have our Bergeron/Marchand in Tavares/Matthews(see above where I said generational talent can count) and our Pasta's in Marner and Nylander.

Bergeron and Marchand still need their Pasta's to win no? Or are you going to even claim Nylander can't produce even if he was on Berg/Marchand line?

You are too harsh on Nylander in my opinion. Harsh because your view on him is biased and not willing to use any sort of context.

Don't know what else to say. We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[ToneDog]

Then what are your thoughts on Nylander winning rookie of the month twice and in a crucial moment when it was looking like we were going to get beat for the wild card? Take Nylander away from this team and we don't enjoy playoff hockey two seasons ago. A non-game changer can do that? At that age!??!??! He was just leaving his teens.

You are confident given the WHOLE picture, Nylander is not a core, game changing piece? What about when he's in his prime around 25-26? You're willing to throw that away because of one bad series when he was still basically a kid? In years he's an adult yes, but within the realm of strong grown athletes around him, he is very much still a kid.

What about guys like Malkin who disappeared at the same age because they were to young to handle the full NHL grind + playoffs. Would you have the same thoughts on Malkin?

I don't think you would. You would justify why it's okay Malkin disappeared. Simple google shows you pens swept 4-0 by Sens. Malkin played horrible. There were news articles out how the grind got to him.

Boston is a cup contending team. If Nylander at his age was able to walk circles around the big bad bruins, he'd have went 1/1 in his draft and would be a generational player.

He's elite but not generational and definitely capable of being shut down by a cup contender in the playoffs, especially when our best player is hurt. That's why you need solid veterans like Marchand and Bergeron.

Take away Pastrnak's veterans and he gets shut down 10/10 times by other teams. I'd take my odds letting the rest of the Bruins go 1 on 1 with the rest of the team as long as I know Pastrnak is getting smothered. We wouldn't even be discussing this guy so much on our forums if we replaced Marchand and Berg with two other 20-21 year olds instead. We'd have swept that team and went straight to the Bolts.

What do the Leafs finally have? They went and found themselves their own veteran all star in Tavares.

We now have our Bergeron/Marchand in Tavares/Matthews(see above where I said generational talent can count) and our Pasta's in Marner and Nylander.

Bergeron and Marchand still need their Pasta's to win no? Or are you going to even claim Nylander can't produce even if he was on Berg/Marchand line?

You are too harsh on Nylander in my opinion. Harsh because your view on him is biased and not willing to use any sort of context.

Don't know what else to say. We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Whoa, I only said he would not have changed the outcome of our two loses and that he is not at Matthews' level. We need Nylander on board if we want to have any shot at Lord Stanley's mug.

Also said he needs to change his game if he wants to succeed in the playoffs because the ice surface gets smaller. I liken Willie to Kessel who has been pretty good in the playoffs but I recall him not doing much against Chara either. Willie needs to figure it out. He is young and should.

 

[member 262271]

I keep looking at teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, or Tampa and try to remind myself how good they've been and for how long. Fast forwarding a few years the Leafs will have improved, right now it's a development year any way you look at it IMO. I'm just hoping for some improvement, in the form of making it out of round 1.

 

[Ratboy]

We're too small. This will change

 

[Leafling]

I’ll say it again, He (Kadri) should have 7 hits per game. Not 7 hits in 9 games.

BTW, Marleau had 4 hits against MTL.

Damn sorry i thought u were being sarcastic n thought 7 hits is good for naz in 9 games.
And yes i agree he should be up there with hyman n others in the hits column

 

[82Ninety42011]

I think the Leafs will be fine in regular season but come playoffs they will be held in check. They need a bit more grit for sure but nothing earth shattering. They need to add one top 6 physical player and maybe 1 on the bottom 6 plus a hitting defense man that they are already looking for as most believe. I think with that little bit of grit added they will be fine in playoffs to.

 

[Faltorvo]

Actually the OP is “are they?”
Therefore to you they are, to the other poster they are not.
If you think they are missing key ingredients, your answer would be are not.

there is no such thing as "key piece" needed for this roster

take the 2 finalists last year

the made up "oh they need this and this and this" or they will never strongly compete for a cup would have been a bucket of horse sht.

what wins a cup is a strong roster(we have that) and then playing highend hockey when the POs starts , just like both finalists last season.

 

[coladin]

Oh my goodness, let’s do whatever it takes to sign him. This is a multi generational offensive talent, they are hard to find. We need his entry zone skills and skating more than ever, and he is still developing. I don’t believe for a second he is selfish, I think he is possibly getting bad advice. Please, please, look to the Hall-Larsson deal for why this should not even be on the radar. Like others have said, unless it’s a Seth Jones type, don’t even think about it

I agree he is excellent, but the window of opportunity will change once Matthews gets paid. You have Tavares locked up as well, I would say they should go for it now. Once Kadri starts scoring there will be more depth up front. But defence is nowhere near good enough and could waste some good years from superstars.

 

[m1ker]

Then watch a game. (edit- I mean the games we played like a snooze fest and the other team played like a NHL team for once).

It's same thing every shift.

Matthews smothered.

Then the rest is like basketball when you leave a player open for a 3 pointer because you're not scared of them.

Open dudes at the 3- Marleau and Kapanen

Matthews shut down.

With Nylander you have to disperse resources. I'm not saying him and Matthews will own every shift, that would be absurd. I'm saying they'll just be their normal elite 5 on 5 line because the dynamics work better.

If you don't believe that then your opinion is confusing to me because their 5 on 5 stats is public for everyone to see.

Are you forgetting last years playoffs when Nylander was replaced by Brown because the line was garbage