Are the Flames Overrated? (Warning: Post 75 & OP)

Aceboogie

Registered User
Aug 25, 2012
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Seriously? That's the group you want to argue my point with?

Thornton and Weber were moved more than once? And I don't know if you noticed, but they've been core players for their team.

Wheeler couldn't agree to an ELC contract with Phoenix. He signed his ELC with Boston, and again, was traded once, to Atlanta which became Winnipeg. So essentialyl, moved only once and absolutely considered a core player.

Has Hall moved more than once? Was Hall not considered to be a core player in Edmonton (HOPE rings a bell?) up until the trade? I mean, you'd know better than I would as an Oilers fan.

Pronger is a possible exception but the wasn't traded for peanuts either and I would believe he was considered a core player in St Louis. Nine seasons as a member of the Blues before being traded to Edmonton due to being a cap casualty (literally the implementation of the salary cap as well as the team being sold at the time.)

Where exactly does Neal fit in with those players, the importance to their teams, and their career histories?

Neal was never traded for peanuts either. He was always traded for a premium player (at the time). He was then selected by Vegas over some other good Nashville players, and then signed a big contract to leave Vegas.

Neal was also very highly regarded on every team he played for by the players. Ill value what guys on Nashville/Vegas/Pitt say about his leadership. And that is that its top notch
 

Tobias Kahun

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
41,649
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Losing Neal or Smith hasn't hurt them at all, but the guys they replaced them with are certainly underwhelming.

It's good to see that the biggest question mark entering the season doesn't seem to be a question mark anymore though. They found their #1 goalie
Definitely impressed with rittich.

his lateral mobility is unreal, more often than not he can slide over and take away a cross crease pass or 2 on 1, as evident by his blocker save on lindblom last night I believe.
 

wingsfan17

Registered User
Jan 20, 2008
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I don't think the Flames are worse because Neal is gone, but I think there biggest weakness last year and this year is lack of scoring depth outside of the top line and Tkachuk. But I do think he was the easy whipping boy when there were tons of players and people to blame. Now that Neal's gone and people don't know who to blame, these sort of questions come up. I personally think the Flames just need to shift their lines, I said it last year. Your first line is sick, that's great. It doesn't mean anything if your other lines aren't performing. As a wings fan I feel the same about the bertuzzi-larkin-mantha line. It's cool when they score 4 goals, but they left the other lines so weak that when they don't score four, they're going to lose.
 

JPeeper

Hail Satan!
Jan 4, 2015
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Where things got sour in Calgary was that they needed a scapegoat. They completely failed in playoffs and management couldn't point fingers at the real culprits who went MIA (Gaudreau). So they started the campaign of scapegoating Neal.

Both Hall and Neal were "vindicated" on their new teams when they werent under toxic management who tried to smear them

Bitch please.

Neal never gave a single f*** in his entire stint in Calgary. He got his big payday and completely mailed it in. When he wasn't gifted the top line spot he pouted for the entire year, Lindholm clicked and ended up with 78 points, no James we're not taking him off the line. When he got demoted to the 3rd line because he was playing like dog shit he pouted. When he was so incredibly useless he got benched in the playoffs he pouted.

He deserved f***ing nothing in Calgary with his horrendous and embarrassing play.

He isn't a scapegoat, every demotion he got in Calgary was 100% deserved with his disgustingly bad play.

You know nothing about the Flames, why you bother talking is laughable. Brouwer, Smith and Neal were all trash players and f***ed the team with their horrendous play, hard for their "leadership" ability to show through when their on ice contribution is negative and an insult to hockey. Why should they listen to anything they say when they play at below AHL level hockey.

Wideman, Hudler, Frolik are were brought in and had great success with the Flames and were/are loved by the Flames. You're point is so wrong it's hilarious.
 
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JPeeper

Hail Satan!
Jan 4, 2015
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Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Flames suffer the worst defeat in the playoffs the match they scratched Neal?

Wrong, they got rocked in games 3-4 in Colorado where Neal played.

The only game Gaudreau showed up, game 5, Neal was benched.
 

Paralyzer

Hyman >>> Matthews
Sep 29, 2006
15,625
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Somewhere Up North
That's funny because I think everyone (especially obsessive Oilers fans) could see Neal sucked the whole season, with Flames fans hoping he could "turn it up" in the playoffs. Or did you think Neal's 19 points was what really pushed Calgary into that Top of the West position last season?


I was a big, big fan of the Neal signing in Calgary. I wanted him to play alongside Tkachuk and Bennett to create, for the lack of a better term, "The *****ebag Line". I thought he could provide the right amount of grit and skill, and I've legitimately been a fan of his playstyle since his Dallas days. I wanted Calgary to have a line that teams legitimately hated to play against.

But it didn't happen, and that sucked.

However, the reports that he sulked, or wasn't doing well as a leader in the locker room, I don't know how substantiated those are. I don't claim to be an insider.

But ask yourself this:

How does a player, who has a history of scoring (anywhere from at least 25 goals to 40!) and averaging around 50pts for the majority of his career (especially when he was younger, in Pittsburgh he was around PPG), get bounced around the League as much as Neal has?

He's a top-6 player no doubt with flashes of first line skill. You'd think every team would want to keep a player such as him around, especially when he's producing as he has been through most of his career. It's Subban-esque the way a player of his calibre (when he's playing up to his pedigree) isn't kept around.

I posted an explanation on this a while back in the James Neal 40+ goal thread:

Every team that has kept him have liked him. It's got to do with the up-coming talent on their rosters that kept them from keeping him :

-Dallas needed defence and had Benn
-Pittsburgh had Kessel/Letang to keep and needed 3rd line scoring/checking in Hornqvist
-Nashville needed to give up one of their younger forwards or give up Neal and felt giving up Neal was better for them than lose one of their younger guys as he was expendable with a loaded Top 6 already
-Vegas needed to resign all their players and didn't have the cap room to keep him in as well
-Flames were utilizing him into a 3rd line checker when he's a Top 6 scorer and played with guys like Bennett and Jankowski which isn't helping him at all

I'd say out of all those teams, the Flames were the only ones who wanted to 'get rid' of him.
 

Paralyzer

Hyman >>> Matthews
Sep 29, 2006
15,625
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Somewhere Up North
So he exemplifies leadership except when the team doesn't like him?

Well, if you don't give the guy the room to speak or listen to him, yes it can. That's like you working in a new company that does the exact same thing in your last job, and you got 10+ years from your other job, but your management/crew don't want your input, even though you share valuable info on doing a better job because they only want to do it their way. These things happen day to day in every profession.
 

DJJones

Registered User
Nov 18, 2014
10,205
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Calgary
Well, if you don't give the guy the room to speak or listen to him, yes it can. That's like you working in a new company that does the exact same thing in your last job, and you got 10+ years from your other job, but your management/crew don't want your input, even though you share valuable info on doing a better job because they only want to do it their way. These things happen day to day in every profession.

If you're hoping to job to job because management keeps ignoring you I would seriously be doubting my personal skills.
 

BlueOil

"well-informed"
Apr 28, 2010
7,027
4,022
overrated? perhaps.

they're not bad, but the way they play the game makes it very boom or bust
 

Aceboogie

Registered User
Aug 25, 2012
32,649
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***** please.

Neal never gave a single **** in his entire stint in Calgary. He got his big payday and completely mailed it in. When he wasn't gifted the top line spot he pouted for the entire year, Lindholm clicked and ended up with 78 points, no James we're not taking him off the line. When he got demoted to the 3rd line because he was playing like dog **** he pouted. When he was so incredibly useless he got benched in the playoffs he pouted.

He deserved ****ing nothing in Calgary with his horrendous and embarrassing play.

He isn't a scapegoat, every demotion he got in Calgary was 100% deserved with his disgustingly bad play.

You know nothing about the Flames, why you bother talking is laughable. Brouwer, Smith and Neal were all trash players and ****ed the team with their horrendous play, hard for their "leadership" ability to show through when their on ice contribution is negative and an insult to hockey. Why should they listen to anything they say when they play at below AHL level hockey.

Wideman, Hudler, Frolik are were brought in and had great success with the Flames and were/are loved by the Flames. You're point is so wrong it's hilarious.

Maybe if Neal was put on the top line he would have had 80 points

Neal has been better than Linhdolm his entire career. Including coming off of 25 and 23 goal campaigns (plus 2 cup runs). Maybe he should have gotten the top line butter minutes

Neal and Lindholm are now both getting those type of minutes and Neal is looking better. So who knows, maybe last year Neal would have been even better in those minutes
 

treple13

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Sep 1, 2013
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Maybe if Neal was put on the top line he would have had 80 points

Neal has been better than Linhdolm his entire career. Including coming off of 25 and 23 goal campaigns (plus 2 cup runs). Maybe he should have gotten the top line butter minutes

Neal and Lindholm are now both getting those type of minutes and Neal is looking better. So who knows, maybe last year Neal would have been even better in those minutes

This is revisionism at its strongest. Neal is doing good in Edmonton therefore he must have been good in Calgary too and they misused him?

Nah, Neal dragged down every single line on the entire team he played on. If you try Neal with Gaudreau-Monahan for a few games and it's garbage, you don't keep trying it if you want to win. And Neal got even more chance with Tkachuk-Backlund and that was also garbage. He also dragged down the 3rd line, but they didn't really have anywhere else to put him. And it culminated with him being so bad in the playoffs that they had to healthy scratch him.

Neal was not one of the Top 12 best performing Flames forwards last season and was given shots on every line and on the power play.

If he's doing better this year, it's because he's figured out how to play better.
 
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treple13

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Sep 1, 2013
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Flames were utilizing him into a 3rd line checker when he's a Top 6 scorer and played with guys like Bennett and Jankowski which isn't helping him at all

Neal started the season mainly on a line with Backlund and Tkachuk. He only dropped to the 3rd line because he was consistently outplayed by Michael Frolik.
 

nturn06

Registered User
Nov 9, 2017
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Wrong, they got rocked in games 3-4 in Colorado where Neal played.

The only game Gaudreau showed up, game 5, Neal was benched.


Only in Calagry an OT loss is much worse than loosing 5-1... But of course, if this helps making your point....
 

Siludin

Registered User
Dec 9, 2010
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With Edmonton and Vancouver looking improved, Arizona looking slightly better, Calgary needs to also be better than they were last year to remain in the same spot. Icing a comparable roster to last season will mean a lower spot in the standings. San Jose is in a similar spot to Calgary, but I think they are a slightly better roster. Vegas looks as good or better as well. LA will be terrible, but you can't drop gimme games to them or else you are truly finished.
 

Snakepit

Registered User
Nov 19, 2013
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Maybe if Neal was put on the top line he would have had 80 points

Neal has been better than Linhdolm his entire career. Including coming off of 25 and 23 goal campaigns (plus 2 cup runs). Maybe he should have gotten the top line butter minutes

Neal and Lindholm are now both getting those type of minutes and Neal is looking better. So who knows, maybe last year Neal would have been even better in those minutes

But when he did get opportunities there, he did nothing with them. He'd a get a shift or two with Monahan and Gaudreau after every PK, all Neal did was cause turnovers. Same with his time on PP1. He played quite a few games with Tkachuk and Backlund but got demoted because he was outplayed by Frolik.

Neal played in the bottom 6 last season because he was playing like a bottom 6 player. You can't blame the coach for his usage when every time a puck hit his stick it suddenly bounced off like a tennis ball.

I'm not crapping on the guy, I'm glad he's doing well so far this year. But he wasn't the same player last season and that isn't on anybody but himself
 
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treple13

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Only in Calagry an OT loss is much worse than loosing 5-1... But of course, if this helps making your point....

They picked the wrong game, but it's actually true. Calgary played significantly better in Game 5 than Game 2. In Game 2 Smith stood on his head for most of the game and Calgary got lucky to take a lead. In Game 5, Calgary played really good for a while and just couldn't convert chances (and had a 50/50 GI call take a goal away). Once behind the floodgates opened and they didn't play great once the game was all, but decided, but it's still better than Game 2 where they were completely dominated.
 

John Eichel da GOAT

Registered User
Oct 7, 2008
6,486
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Giordano went into freak mode which is unlikely to be repeated. They have a good first line that disappears when it matters. Goaltending is still a huge ?. And that Lucic trade....yikes. Looking like it will go down as one of the worst of the decade.

So yes, very overrated.
 

Snakepit

Registered User
Nov 19, 2013
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Giordano's still a beast. Another Norris year? Probably not, but so far it looks like he's gotten even better in his own end. Their three 22 year old dmen look great too.
Goaltending is hardly a question mark aside from having a below-average backup
 

Tkachuky

Registered User
Dec 30, 2009
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Giordano went into freak mode which is unlikely to be repeated. They have a good first line that disappears when it matters. Goaltending is still a huge ?. And that Lucic trade....yikes. Looking like it will go down as one of the worst of the decade.

So yes, very overrated.

Gio is still freak mode. Rittich is doing great.

talk about not knowing shit
 
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Flames Fanatic

Mediocre
Aug 14, 2008
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Maybe if Neal was put on the top line he would have had 80 points

Neal has been better than Linhdolm his entire career. Including coming off of 25 and 23 goal campaigns (plus 2 cup runs). Maybe he should have gotten the top line butter minutes

Neal and Lindholm are now both getting those type of minutes and Neal is looking better. So who knows, maybe last year Neal would have been even better in those minutes

Neal has had a single season of 80 or more points, when riding shotgun with a Malkin in his prime when he won the Hart and Art Ross trophy by 12 points.

I love Monahan and Gaudreau, but it's laughable to think that he would have equaled his career high with our top line.

Could Neal outscore Lindholm this year? Absolutely. Anything can happen. But the Neal that showed up to play for the Flames last year wouldn't and couldn't have. He's a different guy again this year, which is telling in some ways more than others. But to suggest Lindholm's success was merely plug and play is to take away from Lindholm's stellar play and ignoring Neal's warts, especially 5 on 5.
 

DCDM

Da Rink Cats
Mar 24, 2008
38,094
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Calgary
It is 100% amusing watching the heel turn of Oilers fans who were happy to laugh it up when Neal was completely checked out and shitting the bed in every situation last year, only to now praise him for his leadership and his drive now that he's feeding off McDavid.

When he goes cold, I hope you remember to pat him on the back for the good work he did for 8 games.
 
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nturn06

Registered User
Nov 9, 2017
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It is 100% amusing watching the heel turn of Oilers fans who were happy to laugh it up when Neal was completely checked out and ****ting the bed in every situation last year, only to now praise him for his leadership and his drive now that he's feeding off McDavid.

When he goes cold, I hope you remember to pat him on the back for the good work he did for 8 games.

When he goes cold we will remember that we traded Milan Lucic for him, and we will be more than fine.... BTW, how is that experiment working for you?

I find it hilarious that Neals goals are primary "front of the net presence" type of goals, yet somehow are only a byproduct of McD, even when he is not on the ice witH McD.
Meanwhile, the Flames PP is soo good that you guys couldn't fit Neal on it last year, yet the entire team combined for half of Neal's goals on PP.
 
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