Are NHL teams a bad investment??

[thinkwild]

Anyway, I think what we can all agree on is that since the numbers on one side of this battlefield aren't trusted at all by the other side, that pretty much renders them meaningless.

So where does that leave us? Square fricking one, that's what. I'm at the point now where these two losers should just fish or cut bait. Enough with the foreplay, either get a deal or cancel the damn season right now.

So obviously a deal that links salaries to a figure that cant be agreed upon is out of the question. Some more creative thinking will be required.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

LOL. This is rich.

Forbes is an unassailable authority when it comes to team losses, and you PA types will trot out the $96 million as gospel, yet when it comes to profits, it's "Ignore Forbes, they have no clue, Vancouver actually made way more money than that".

What a joke. Complete hypocrisy.

dont include me in this ... i thought it was an odd way to make a point as well.

dr

 

[tantalum]

The team and the building were bought for 100 million. He is a complete 50% owner in Orca Bay which owns both the building and Team. He hasn't lost his mind, Forbes reported the Canucks profit at 1.7 million, they actually have made 43 million in 2 years. Yes he paid more but the one thing anyone in this city will tell you is Franco Aquilini is very careful, if he paid more he knows he is going to see a return on investment.

What happened to the $130 mil number? $100 mil is quite different. Almost at different as valuing a team at $148 mil when it should be closer to perhaps $100 mil.

Ah so Forbes is right for valuations (though not based on the sale of the team and building for $100 mil) but not for profits. Is not the profitability of a business a MAJOR component to a valuation? By the way, a canuck profit is COMPLETELY different from Orca Bay profit. Yes Orca Bay made money thanks to the building but the team didn't make much. So it really just goes to show once again that the team itself isn't the investment...the real estate is.

 

[djhn579]

Whats that, a schoolyard taunt?

Not try to taunt anybody, but how can you complain about how something is done when you refuse to discuss and come to an agreement on how it should be done?

 

[SENSible1*]

Not try to taunt anybody, but how can you complain about how something is done when you refuse to discuss and come to an agreement on how it should be done?

Two parties, both with a huge financial stake and conflicting interests, were able to examine the books and come to an agreement on the numbers in the Canucks sale.

In the NFL, the PA and league can examine the books and come to an agreement on what constitutes revenue and what % the players are entitled to as fair compensation.

In the NFL, the PA and league can examine the books and come to an agreement on what constitutes revenue and what % the players are entitled to as fair compensation.

Funny that so many people here are claiming it is impossible for the NHLPA to do the same.

I guess it's because the owners in the NFL and NBA are paragons of virtue.

I also take great amusement from those who are willing to take Forbes word on the NHL's financial state and unreported revenue/overreported losses when he didn't even get a look at the books, but feel that a forensic accounting team, acting on behalf of the PA and with access to all the books PLUS any information Forbes or the union possesses couldn't find and NEGOTIATE an acceptable definition of "hockey revenue".

 

[djhn579]

Two parties, both with a huge financial stake and conflicting interests, were able to examine the books and come to an agreement on the numbers in the Canucks sale.

In the NFL, the PA and league can examine the books and come to an agreement on what constitutes revenue and what % the players are entitled to as fair compensation.

In the NFL, the PA and league can examine the books and come to an agreement on what constitutes revenue and what % the players are entitled to as fair compensation.

Funny that so many people here are claiming it is impossible for the NHLPA to do the same.

I guess it's because the owners in the NFL and NBA are paragons of virtue.

I also take great amusement from those who are willing to take Forbes word on the NHL's financial state and unreported revenue/overreported losses when he didn't even get a look at the books, but feel that a forensic accounting team, acting on behalf of the PA and with access to all the books PLUS any information Forbes or the union possesses couldn't find and NEGOTIATE an acceptable definition of "hockey revenue".

I agree completely.

If the NHLPA was serious about making sure they were addressing the leagues problems, they should be more than willing to enter negotiations on exactly what should be considered league revenues. They can even do that without agreeing to link salaries to revenues. They won't do that because if they did, they could no longer complain that the owners are not accounting for revenues properly and pretending that things are not as bad as they are.

 

[gary69]

Funny that so many people here are claiming it is impossible for the NHLPA to do the same.

I guess it's because the owners in the NFL and NBA are paragons of virtue.

I also take great amusement from those who are willing to take Forbes word on the NHL's financial state and unreported revenue/overreported losses when he didn't even get a look at the books, but feel that a forensic accounting team, acting on behalf of the PA and with access to all the books PLUS any information Forbes or the union possesses couldn't find and NEGOTIATE an acceptable definition of "hockey revenue".

It's hard for NHLPA to do the same, when they are not allowed by the NHL:

"Goodenow: 4. We were given access to the UROs for 30 clubs, but were only able to conduct a thorough review of four NHL clubs. On those four clubs alone we found just over $52 million in hockey related revenues and benefits not reported in the League's voluntary and unaudited URO process. If we are given similar access to all of the other individual teams' financial information, presumably used in the Levitt report, we will be in a position to provide further comment."

http://www.nhlpa.com/MediaReleases/...playId={C70AAA96-E756-4BC5-87BE-4C0621FA42A9}

 

[djhn579]

It's hard for NHLPA to do the same, when they are not allowed by the NHL:

"Goodenow: 4. We were given access to the UROs for 30 clubs, but were only able to conduct a thorough review of four NHL clubs. On those four clubs alone we found just over $52 million in hockey related revenues and benefits not reported in the League's voluntary and unaudited URO process. If we are given similar access to all of the other individual teams' financial information, presumably used in the Levitt report, we will be in a position to provide further comment."

http://www.nhlpa.com/MediaReleases/...playId={C70AAA96-E756-4BC5-87BE-4C0621FA42A9}

Gord Miller: How can you get the players to believe your numbers. I mean the players have shot down the Levitt report-how can you get the players to believe that you're losing this money. Because they seem-they don't. They don't believe you.



Bill Daly: Well I mean, I think, unfortunately, we've done everything within our power to try to get the players to believe our numbers. It's really the union that's responsible here, not the players. Five-and-a-half years ago, in March, when we reached out to the Players Association, we expressly invited them to hire an independent auditor of their choice to come in and verify our numbers. They chose not to do that, and yet continued to be critical publicly of our numbers even after we'd gone through a minor economic study group to verify those numbers, so taking the position it's garbage in, garbage out, it's unaudited, we hired an auditor to come in and look at it, and they still want to have problems with our numbers. We're done talking about our numbers. There are no issues with respect to the financial losses facing this league, and anybody who's involved in this industry in a meaningful way knows this league is hurting. So the Players Association - schizophrenic in their views as they always are - don't want to acknowledge it at this point and that's their problem and not ours.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=101548

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

It's really the union that's responsible here, not the players. Five-and-a-half years ago, in March, when we reached out to the Players Association, we expressly invited them to hire an independent auditor of their choice to come in and verify our numbers. They chose not to do that, and yet continued to be critical publicly of our numbers even after we'd gone through a minor economic study group to verify those numbers, so taking the position it's garbage in, garbage out, it's unaudited, we hired an auditor to come in and look at it, and they still want to have problems with our numbers.

Well, no kidding. The issue is not whether the numbers are added up correctly or not. The issue is what should count and what shouldn't. The NHLPA says the Levitt report is garbage because it counts revenues artificially based on the NBA formula. The formula is garbage so the result is garbage.

There are no issues with respect to the financial losses facing this league, and anybody who's involved in this industry in a meaningful way knows this league is hurting. So the Players Association - schizophrenic in their views as they always are - don't want to acknowledge it at this point and that's their problem and not ours.

I guess this means that Daly thinks the players are not involved in the industry is any meaningful way. That is Bill Daly and Gary Bettman all the way.

It sure looks like the problem belongs to the NHL.

Tom

 

[djhn579]

Well, no kidding. The issue is not whether the numbers are added up correctly or not. The issue is what should count and what shouldn't. The NHLPA says the Levitt report is garbage because it counts revenues artificially based on the NBA formula. The formula is garbage so the result is garbage.



I guess this means that Daly thinks the players are not involved in the industry is any meaningful way. That is Bill Daly and Gary Bettman all the way.

It sure looks like the problem belongs to the NHL.

Tom

I could have swore I was responding to some one saying that the NHLPA never had an opportunity to see or audit the NHL's numbers, not that there was a problem with how the Levitt report determined thier numbers...

 

[gary69]

Gord Miller: How can you get the players to believe your numbers. I mean the players have shot down the Levitt report-how can you get the players to believe that you're losing this money. Because they seem-they don't. They don't believe you.



Bill Daly: Well I mean, I think, unfortunately, we've done everything within our power to try to get the players to believe our numbers. It's really the union that's responsible here, not the players. Five-and-a-half years ago, in March, when we reached out to the Players Association, we expressly invited them to hire an independent auditor of their choice to come in and verify our numbers. They chose not to do that, and yet continued to be critical publicly of our numbers even after we'd gone through a minor economic study group to verify those numbers, so taking the position it's garbage in, garbage out, it's unaudited, we hired an auditor to come in and look at it, and they still want to have problems with our numbers. We're done talking about our numbers. There are no issues with respect to the financial losses facing this league, and anybody who's involved in this industry in a meaningful way knows this league is hurting. So the Players Association - schizophrenic in their views as they always are - don't want to acknowledge it at this point and that's their problem and not ours.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=101548

Goodenow, on september 2004, THIS year, not 5+ years ago:

"The NHL continues to make selective and distorted references to team finances. We have seen some of the NHL’s data but only after signing confidentiality agreements that prevent us from offering specific comments. As the NHL continues to claim its financial survival is at stake, it should open its books and let everyone see the teams claiming these losses. We have publicly asked the NHL to do so but they steadfastly refuse to expose the information to the light of day."

http://www.nhlpa.com/MediaReleases/...playId={0F45C624-E93A-42FC-88FC-96F9A7CABBA6}