Recalled/Assigned: Archibald, Pelletier up. Sauve down. (UPDATE: Pelletier sent back down)

Win One Before I Die

Cautious Optimism
Jul 31, 2007
5,119
4
I don't think you can ignore the suspension in terms of comparing total points, things should always be on a per game basis when comparing players. Also, once ice, I believe Kassian does look better than his stats would indicate and I do think he's being brought along better this year than in other years.

It should be noted that the Oilers are having a ton of trouble because they are missing Gagner (even more so when they were also missing RNH). It could be argued that Kassian, and his stick swing, might actually be one of the biggest reasons why we are so comfortably in a playoff spot right now.

I agree. The oilers are ****ed. Oh and brutal goaltending isnt helping.

As for Kassian, you do sometimes see that he turns into Bertuzzi protecting the puck etc. Its just a matter of time.
 

Cogburn

Pretend they're yachts.
May 28, 2010
15,073
4,470
Vancouver
i don't think you can ignore the suspension in terms of comparing total points, things should always be on a per game basis when comparing players. Also, once ice, i believe kassian does look better than his stats would indicate and i do think he's being brought along better this year than in other years.

It should be noted that the oilers are having a ton of trouble because they are missing gagner (even more so when they were also missing rnh). It could be argued that kassian, and his stick swing, might actually be one of the biggest reasons why we are so comfortably in a playoff spot right now.

I demand more stick swinging!
 

Zarpan

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
2,090
185
Vancouver
Kassian has 1 goal and 1 point in 8 games and is 16th in team scoring behind the likes of Stanton, Weise, and even Booth.

Ironically he's also 16th in ice time which makes him equal to a third line forward bordering on 4th line.


He really needs to start producing something. No more of this ''he's playing great'' because he actually gets involved and does what every other player does on a nightly basis, but time to actually get some points.

Sure, he does need to produce more in the long run. One point every eight games would be unacceptable over the course of the whole season.

However, you're also dealing with really small sample sizes here, so it doesn't really add much to bring up comparisons to other players at this point.

Stanton has more points than Ehrhoff, Goligoski, Timonen and Del Zotto combined.

Weise and Booth and Kassian have more goals than Giroux and Stepan. Etc...
 

Wolfhard

Registered User
Jul 7, 2012
704
14
BC
It should be noted that the Oilers are having a ton of trouble because they are missing Gagner (even more so when they were also missing RNH). It could be argued that Kassian, and his stick swing, might actually be one of the biggest reasons why we are so comfortably in a playoff spot right now.

Sorry, but no way. Edmonton has 3 wins in 13 games. I don't see one player having the ability to single handedly get them 5 more, which would move the team from dead last, to 4th in the conference (to compete with the Canucks). He may be somewhat important to their team, but he's a 60 pt player at best, who's never cracked 50 before. He is not the only reason Edmonton is dead last...

The Canucks have also managed their record despite losing several players that are much more key than Gagner.
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
Sure, he does need to produce more in the long run. One point every eight games would be unacceptable over the course of the whole season.

However, you're also dealing with really small sample sizes here, so it doesn't really add much to bring up comparisons to other players at this point.

Stanton has more points than Ehrhoff, Goligoski, Timonen and Del Zotto combined.

Weise and Booth and Kassian have more goals than Giroux and Stepan. Etc...

This guy right here. Great job pointing out how ridiculous drawing conclusions from such small sample sizes. :handclap:

Sorry, but no way. Edmonton has 3 wins in 13 games. I don't see one player having the ability to single handedly get them 5 more, which would move the team from dead last, to 4th in the conference (to compete with the Canucks). He may be somewhat important to their team, but he's a 60 pt player at best, who's never cracked 50 before. He is not the only reason Edmonton is dead last...

The Canucks have also managed their record despite losing several players that are much more key than Gagner.

Better than Gagner? Maybe... More Key? I don't think so. It'd be akin to losing Hank or Kesler in my opinon. If anything you might argue for a 'just as key' situation:

Edmonton top 4 (?):
Hall
RNH
Eberle
Gagner

Vancouver top 4:
Hank
Dank
Kesler
Burrows

(Just remembered that Hall is injured too. They definitely have lost more key players than us.)
 
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Wolfhard

Registered User
Jul 7, 2012
704
14
BC
This guy right here. Great job pointing out how ridiculous drawing conclusions from such small sample sizes. :handclap:



Better than Gagner? Maybe... More Key? I don't think so. It'd be akin to losing Hank or Kesler in my opinon. If anything you might argue for a 'just as key' situation:

Edmonton top 4 (?):
Hall
RNH
Eberle
Gagner

Vancouver top 4:
Hank
Dank
Kesler
Burrows

(Just remembered that Hall is injured too. They definitely have lost more key players than us.)

Saying that Edmonton is a weaker team, therefor a mediocre player means more to them, isn't a good defense. It just helps prove that Edmonton is more than a 60 pt player away from being in Vancouver' s league.

I'd say Burrows is more key than Gagner by far. And we've won more games without him than Edmonton has without Gagner. Also being without Hansen and Edler for varying amounts of time still resulted in wins.

If a team is so weak that one (40 point proven. 60 point possible) player causes it to drop from top 4 team, to dead last in the conference, then it will rarely threaten the team that the Canucks are showing to be, for very long at all.
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
Saying that Edmonton is a weaker team, therefor a mediocre player means more to them, isn't a good defense. It just helps prove that Edmonton is more than a 60 pt player away from being in Vancouver' s league.

I'd say Burrows is more key than Gagner by far. And we've won more games without him than Edmonton has without Gagner. Also being without Hansen and Edler for varying amounts of time still resulted in wins.

If a team is so weak that one (40 point proven. 60 point possible) player causes it to drop from top 4 team, to dead last in the conference, then it will rarely threaten the team that the Canucks are showing to be, for very long at all.

I see that you disregarded my distinction between key and better.

The definition of key that I am using is as follows (from the Webster dictionary):

an instrumental or deciding factor

If you do not agree with this definition we cannot continue to disagree as we are disagreeing on the meaning of a word and not anything of substance. With that said I agree with pretty much everything in your post but the bolded. I disagree with this on some very simple numbers and concepts.

First, Gagner was the second leading scorer for the (C)oilers last year with 38 points. Conversely, Burrows was the fourth leading scorer for the Nucks last year with 24 point. Second, it is generally accepted that centers have more value, and impact on the game, than wingers.

From the two examples above I have drawn the conclusion that Gagner is more key (from the definition above) to the Oil than Burrows is to the Nucks.

Further to my point I think you are essentially agreeing with me when you say that the Nucks have won more games with Burrows out of the line up than the Oil have won with Gagner out of the line up. Wouldn't this imply that Gagner has a greater deciding factor on the games than Burrows does? (This of course cannot be proven as the Oilers could just continue to lose, and I expect them to, when Gagner does return.)
 

Wolfhard

Registered User
Jul 7, 2012
704
14
BC
I see that you disregarded my distinction between key and better.

The definition of key that I am using is as follows (from the Webster dictionary):



If you do not agree with this definition we cannot continue to disagree as we are disagreeing on the meaning of a word and not anything of substance. With that said I agree with pretty much everything in your post but the bolded. I disagree with this on some very simple numbers and concepts.

First, Gagner was the second leading scorer for the (C)oilers last year with 38 points. Conversely, Burrows was the fourth leading scorer for the Nucks last year with 24 point. Second, it is generally accepted that centers have more value, and impact on the game, than wingers.

From the two examples above I have drawn the conclusion that Gagner is more key (from the definition above) to the Oil than Burrows is to the Nucks.

Further to my point I think you are essentially agreeing with me when you say that the Nucks have won more games with Burrows out of the line up than the Oil have won with Gagner out of the line up. Wouldn't this imply that Gagner has a greater deciding factor on the games than Burrows does? (This of course cannot be proven as the Oilers could just continue to lose, and I expect them to, when Gagner does return.)

I think we do somewhat agree on some points. I know Gagner means a lot to that team, but see it being due to them being a weaker team, rather than Gagner being a more pivotal player. Centres do generally have a higher value than wingers, but Burrows brings far more to the table in my opinion and is more of a game breaking talent. He's also generally considered a top line winger, and thereby our 3rd most instrumental forward (Kesler could be argued, but has been a 2nd liner until Burrows' injury, and less effective than expected until recently).

I guess what I'm also thinking is that while he may mean more to HIS team than Burrows' means to ours. It's more due to the fact that his team is much weaker, and lacks the depth needed to fill in for his absence.
And my original point was more that his presence would likely not give the Oilers 5 more wins than the 3 they currently have. The reason they're losing is because they can't outscore their goaltending and defense.
In order to do that, they would have to be able to ice a lineup that could provide a consistent scoring threat for more than 20 minutes of the game (and that's assuming their entire top line is healthy).

1/3 of their forward lines belong in the AHL (some of them barely), their defense is scrambly, their goaltending shaky at best. On top of that, many of their scorers have not only neglected to fill Gagner's void, but have actually had trouble even filling their own shoes.

Even if Gagner was in the lineup, and somehow managed to stabilize their top 2 lines, I don't see them having any more than maybe 2 or 3 more wins at best (and that's giving him a ton of credit). 2-3 more wins, added to the basement team in the West is still well off the pace that the Canucks have set, and quite short of threatening the Canucks playoff position, as the poster insinuated.


Ps. I was arguing that Burrows is a more key player in general, as in the type of player that steps up for his team. The type of player everyone wants on the ice when a game is on the line.
I do however admit that Gagner is possibly more key to his team, which is what you were saying?
 

Barney Gumble

Registered User
Jan 2, 2007
22,711
1
Further to my point I think you are essentially agreeing with me when you say that the Nucks have won more games with Burrows out of the line up than the Oil have won with Gagner out of the line up. Wouldn't this imply that Gagner has a greater deciding factor on the games than Burrows does? (This of course cannot be proven as the Oilers could just continue to lose, and I expect them to, when Gagner does return.)
Switch goalies and I suspect the results might be different. And this is coming from someone who thinks that Dubnyk isn't that bad a goalie (he's just having a bloody awful season thus far).
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
Ps. I was arguing that Burrows is a more key player in general, as in the type of player that steps up for his team. The type of player everyone wants on the ice when a game is on the line.
I do however admit that Gagner is possibly more key to his team, which is what you were saying?

My apologies. I was indeed arguing in the context of each player being key to their team. In general it is much harder to determine and I will concede that there is an argument to be made that Burrows is a more key player in general.

But then again Gagner has an 8 point game in his career :sarcasm:
 

avelanch

Registered User
Feb 9, 2010
171
0
My apologies. I was indeed arguing in the context of each player being key to their team. In general it is much harder to determine and I will concede that there is an argument to be made that Burrows is a more key player in general.

But then again Gagner has an 8 point game in his career :sarcasm:

and Brian Boucher has the NHL's longest shutout streak :sarcasm:
 

Wolfhard

Registered User
Jul 7, 2012
704
14
BC
But then again Gagner has an 8 point game in his career :sarcasm:

Burrows has 3 overtime playoff winners, 22 regular season game winners, as well as 16 short handers (2nd only to Bure). I'd say it could be argued that Burrows is definitely a key to success for the Canucks :naughty:
 

Willting*

Guest
Since there is no thread devoted to Archibald praise... I will say it here! :D

Great game by him. Archibald has the size, speed and tenacity to be a solid third liner in the future, and a very effective fourth liner right now. Cut Sestito and go with Archibald on that fourth line for the rest of the year. I see him as Kassian without the raw offensive tools. Knows his role and its to crash, bang and grind.
 

Hammer79

Registered User
Jan 9, 2009
7,302
1,137
Kelowna
Zac Dalpe got recalled from his conditioning assignment. I have to wonder what the team's plans are for him now.
 

Karl Hungus

Registered User
Oct 6, 2007
2,470
0
Switch goalies and I suspect the results might be different. And this is coming from someone who thinks that Dubnyk isn't that bad a goalie (he's just having a bloody awful season thus far).

I agree that Dubnyk is getting a bad wrap at the moment. If the Oil send him somewhere goalie friendly like Phoenix I think he would become a recognized #1. The defense that the Oilers are playing at the moment is awful. Nobody on their team seems to trust each other so nobody does anything confidently on defense. On top of the injuries they're already quite weak down the middle. They have some skill there but how do you go up against the California teams with boys at center? They also don't really have a top D pairing. Imo, the Oilers need to deal Yak for a whack of vets that can play roles. Given that Yak is having a terrible year it will probably be more like the Phaneuf package rather than the Lindros package but if they want to stop the bleeding they need guys that are vets, well conditioned and can bring some stability to that team. Couldn't a team like the Caps shed some guys like Brouwer and Ward for another Russian sniper?
 

alternate

Win the week!
Jun 9, 2006
8,087
2,952
victoria
Since there is no thread devoted to Archibald praise... I will say it here! :D

Great game by him. Archibald has the size, speed and tenacity to be a solid third liner in the future, and a very effective fourth liner right now. Cut Sestito and go with Archibald on that fourth line for the rest of the year. I see him as Kassian without the raw offensive tools. Knows his role and its to crash, bang and grind.

I must be one of the few not overly dazzled by Archibald so far. I agree last night was his best game to date, but imo its a tale of two ends with this player.

He looks fine in the offensive zone; he has an NHL level shot (whether his release is also big league is TBD), he plays a simple crash the net game, nad his top end speed is fine for getting in on the forecheck.

But his acceleration and agility is pretty substandard, and it shows in the defensive zone. He struggles with defensive puck pressure because his first steps are so slow. The Leafs weren't able to exploit that because they weren't able to generate much offensive zone possesion, but its something I've noticed in the previous games. Giving him better linemates helps, especially when our forwards 9 through 12 right now are marginal NHLers at best.

Not trying to hate on Archie, but I've seen posters talking about dumping Weiss to keep Archie in the line up, which is absolutely redonkulous. I also feel Welsh has been the better player over all (I don't put any stock into ice time last night, we simply don't have 3 players worthy of a 4th line right now, and it seems Torts is giving everyone a shot on the third). Even Sestito's play has been better than expected, but I agree Archie has more offensive potential so I'd be fine with Archie dressing over Sestito as long as there is 2 legit NHLers with him on the 4th (ie Richardson + Weiss/Booth).
 

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