Anyone else Ref?

[Schlep Rock]

Why would the refs get suspended?? You said they made the calls.

The ref's continually gave him 2 minute minors, the league felt they should've thrown the player out and the refs knew they should've.

 

[Schlep Rock]

The player had penalties assessed to him. I don't see why the referees got suspended (why in the hell would that be released to the media anyway?). They called the penalties, did they not? Hell, suspending the player from school for what happens during a game is asinine in itself.

If some fan yelled something like that at me, I'd probably laugh too.

Van,

Figured you'd be defending the refs here... it wasn't released to the "media", it was released to certain people who leaked it. They called two minute minors, no warnings. This kid injured two players, taunted the bench, and they were down 5-1. He should've been tossed.

Being suspended for something that happened during a game? Of course... you are there representing your school. In Rhode Island players have been suspended for starting fights on the football field, for swearing at principals at games, etc. It's not like it was a junior game, its a high school game.

 

[WhoozYerrDaddy]

One fan yelled to the officials, "you're missing a good game"

Last time a coach said that to me, I said back to him.....

"I know...Too bad it's on the other rink, and I got assigned to this mess."

Even the upset coach had to laugh at that. Calmed him down a bit.

I am not sure whether high school in RI plays NCAA or USA Hockey rules, but USA Hockey specifically states that if a player is assessed five penalties in a game, he is assessed a game misconduct.

Maybe that's why the officials were suspended. They didn't game the player after his fifth penalty. Just a guess.

Daddy

 

[Schlep Rock]

Last time a coach said that to me, I said back to him.....

"I know...Too bad it's on the other rink, and I got assigned to this mess."

Even the upset coach had to laugh at that. Calmed him down a bit.

I am not sure whether high school in RI plays NCAA or USA Hockey rules, but USA Hockey specifically states that if a player is assessed five penalties in a game, he is assessed a game misconduct.

Maybe that's why the officials were suspended. They didn't game the player after his fifth penalty. Just a guess.

Daddy

LOL... good comeback on that one.

I believe they play by USA Hockey rules which would make sense. Even if the kid only had 3 penalties, the nature of them they should've tossed him. His only purpose out there was to injure kids.

 

[usmhuskies]

LOL... good comeback on that one.

I believe they play by USA Hockey rules which would make sense. Even if the kid only had 3 penalties, the nature of them they should've tossed him. His only purpose out there was to injure kids.

Well once he got his 5th penalty he should have been tossed...5 penalties and you are out(Game Misconduct) with USA and High School hockey rules...

 

[WhoozYerrDaddy]

I believe that is what I said...five penalties = game misconduct.(USA Hockey)

High schools in this area use NCAA rules, so they do not have the five and out rule. You can still find a way to get him out of the game if you really want to.

Plus, if the coach is worth anything, he will see what is going on, and bench the idiot. If he doesn't, he is almost as guilty as the player.

Daddy

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Van,

Figured you'd be defending the refs here... it wasn't released to the "media", it was released to certain people who leaked it. They called two minute minors, no warnings. This kid injured two players, taunted the bench, and they were down 5-1. He should've been tossed.

He may have hurt two players, but it's not always obvious to the officials that players are injured. I've had situations where I've assessed minors, and the player left the game after the fact (and had the nerve to whine about the minor not being a major), and I've had the opposite where I've tossed players for fouls that didn't see the other player leave.

It's all a matter of judgment. If any league suspended me because they simply disagreed with my penalty selection, I'd quit.

If they failed to enforce an automatic rule (5 penalties = Game Misconduct), then the suspension is justified. That would be like me assessing a Major penalty (for anything) and not the automatic Game Misconduct (under HC rules).

Being suspended for something that happened during a game? Of course... you are there representing your school. In Rhode Island players have been suspended for starting fights on the football field, for swearing at principals at games, etc. It's not like it was a junior game, its a high school game.

Swearing at school officials is one thing, but suspended from school for game action is crap. We had a high school tournament here last year, and the school officials wanted us to report any profanity we heard on the ice. They wanted to suspend players from school for one f-bomb, no matter what the intention of the word. Do you think any of the officials abided by that? Obviously most of these school officials have no idea how hockey is played...and what is even more ironic, is that the next week in an adult rec game, I ended up gassing one of those high school teachers for calling me a f'ing c***su**er.

 

[FLYLine27*]

The ref's continually gave him 2 minute minors, the league felt they should've thrown the player out and the refs knew they should've.

Ah alright...thats what i figured....though i still disagree with the suspending of them. Just because there opinion of what the kid didnt match the opinion of the supervisor watching the game doesnt mean they should be suspended. If that was the case I feel VERY bad for the refs in that organization if thats what they have to worry about while the ref. Horrible organization.

 

[Schlep Rock]

He may have hurt two players, but it's not always obvious to the officials that players are injured. I've had situations where I've assessed minors, and the player left the game after the fact (and had the nerve to whine about the minor not being a major), and I've had the opposite where I've tossed players for fouls that didn't see the other player leave.

It's all a matter of judgment. If any league suspended me because they simply disagreed with my penalty selection, I'd quit.

If they failed to enforce an automatic rule (5 penalties = Game Misconduct), then the suspension is justified. That would be like me assessing a Major penalty (for anything) and not the automatic Game Misconduct (under HC rules).



Swearing at school officials is one thing, but suspended from school for game action is crap. We had a high school tournament here last year, and the school officials wanted us to report any profanity we heard on the ice. They wanted to suspend players from school for one f-bomb, no matter what the intention of the word. Do you think any of the officials abided by that? Obviously most of these school officials have no idea how hockey is played...and what is even more ironic, is that the next week in an adult rec game, I ended up gassing one of those high school teachers for calling me a f'ing c***su**er.

Swearing on the ice is fine and nobody was getting in trouble for that. But injuring players? When told to calm down by the police in the stands the player laughed.

Not obvious? Paramedics came on the ice for one kid because he was so woozy, the other just sat on the back bench the rest of the game so maybe not as obvious.

Let me guess, you think that Bertuzzi and McSorley shouldn't be charged because "that's the game"?

In speaking with a league official tonight at a game he compared the ugliness of the game I am speaking to... "if a cop pulls somebody over for speeding then let's him go only to pull the same car over for speeding 5 miles down the road and have it keep happening with only warnings being given" To the kid, 2 minutes in the box was nothing, he should've been tossed and come to find out the officials haven't just been suspended, they've been banned and according to this league official they have said they won't appeal the decision.

I'm sorry but if you let a kid stay in the game for throwing elbows, high sticks, etc. over and over and over again especially with the game clearly in the bag, I'd have to question your worth as a ref. I've seen pro refs toss players with 5-10 minutes left in a game that was wrapped up just to keep the peace.

Now tonight, two players were rushed to the hospital with serious knee injuries, neither the result of a play but it took a cop to run on the ice to stop a play because the ref would not blow the whistle even after he saw the kid (approximately 30-45 seconds the kid was on the ice). Without exaggeration the police officer swung one of the doors open and ran over to the kid finally forcing the officials to blow the whistle.

Needless to say, I was told by the league official there will be a complete overhaul of the officiting in RI as it has gotten atrocious.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Ah alright...thats what i figured....though i still disagree with the suspending of them. Just because there opinion of what the kid didnt match the opinion of the supervisor watching the game doesnt mean they should be suspended. If that was the case I feel VERY bad for the refs in that organization if thats what they have to worry about while the ref. Horrible organization.

That "organization" is the Rhode Island Interscholastic league. The same league that has produced Bryan Berard, Brian Boucher, David Emma (former Hobey Baker winner), Garth Snow, and others.

There was no supervisor at the game, the tape was sent in by the coach and they judged it was clearly obvious the player was intending to injure players and he should've been removed.

And out of curiosity... what makes the ref's opinion so much more valuable then that of an executive within the league? While they're the ones in the "line of fire" they need to take responsibility for their calls. A missed call, a bad call... it happens, refs are human but so "miss" this kid trying to injure players? You've got to be deaf, dumb, AND blind to miss it and if you allow it to happen you should not be an official.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Swearing on the ice is fine and nobody was getting in trouble for that. But injuring players? When told to calm down by the police in the stands the player laughed.

What was the police doing there anyway? Are games in Rhode Island always that out of control?

Let me guess, you think that Bertuzzi and McSorley shouldn't be charged because "that's the game"?

I resent the mockery, but yes, I do think that McSorley and Bertuzzi should have not been charged. I think the only NHL player who ever supported either of those charges is Steve Moore.

To the kid, 2 minutes in the box was nothing, he should've been tossed and come to find out the officials haven't just been suspended, they've been banned and according to this league official they have said they won't appeal the decision.

I don't think I would appeal either. If an association treats its officials like that, I'd be more than happy to never work another game for them. Where is the local officials association to back their guys up?

I find it sad that the officials were held responsible when they gave him penalties. Has the coach of this player been reprimanded in any way for giving him all that ice time, knowing what he was doing? As far as I see it, the coach is just as responsible as the player.

I'm sorry but if you let a kid stay in the game for throwing elbows, high sticks, etc. over and over and over again especially with the game clearly in the bag, I'd have to question your worth as a ref.

It depends on how I judge the severity to be. At most, if I don't think he's trying to injure the opponents, I might have given a 10-minute Misconduct basically for being a dumbass.

I've seen pro refs toss players with 5-10 minutes left in a game that was wrapped up just to keep the peace.

Key words: "Pro refs". These officials in a Rhode Island high school league are not professionals. To expect that kind of standard of officiating at that level is asinine.

Now tonight, two players were rushed to the hospital with serious knee injuries, neither the result of a play but it took a cop to run on the ice to stop a play because the ref would not blow the whistle even after he saw the kid (approximately 30-45 seconds the kid was on the ice). Without exaggeration the police officer swung one of the doors open and ran over to the kid finally forcing the officials to blow the whistle.

Again, what are the cops doing there? I admit my lack of familiarity with the USA Hockey rulebook, but up here, unless I think the player is in serious physical danger, I have to wait until his team gets possession of the puck until I whistle play dead.

Needless to say, I was told by the league official there will be a complete overhaul of the officiting in RI as it has gotten atrocious.

I think that instead of expecting professional standards for a high school league, and suspending officials when they don't assess a Game Misconduct that a league official thinks should have been assessed, how about having supervisors help train these officials? Instead of suspending them, tell them what you think they did wrong, and they will learn from that.

And out of curiosity... what makes the ref's opinion so much more valuable then that of an executive within the league? While they're the ones in the "line of fire" they need to take responsibility for their calls.

I don't know about down there, but up here, not many league executives have any officiating experience. That's why so many of their decisions on supplementary discipline is based on the word of the referees. They actually give us that respect up here. They wouldn't watch a video, disagree with what we did and ban us from the association. They would ask us our version of what happened and why we called what we did. Unless a referee is intentionally creating havoc (like telling a team to f*** off before a game ...we had a guy like that who got canned almost immediately), they would never ban us. They would give us more experience at a lower level until we're ready to make the next step.

In shorter terms, leagues and associations up here respect their officials and their associations. From what I hear about this RI high school league, they don't.

A missed call, a bad call... it happens, refs are human but so "miss" this kid trying to injure players? You've got to be deaf, dumb, AND blind to miss it and if you allow it to happen you should not be an official.

I don't know how many games you've officiated, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to determine something like that, unless he's kicking an opponent or slashing them a-la Marty McSorley.

Do you think you could do a better job than these officials? If so, why not convince this league official you talk to to put you on the ice?

 

[Schlep Rock]

What was the police doing there anyway? Are games in Rhode Island always that out of control?

I resent the mockery, but yes, I do think that McSorley and Bertuzzi should have not been charged. I think the only NHL player who ever supported either of those charges is Steve Moore.

I don't think I would appeal either. If an association treats its officials like that, I'd be more than happy to never work another game for them. Where is the local officials association to back their guys up?

I find it sad that the officials were held responsible when they gave him penalties. Has the coach of this player been reprimanded in any way for giving him all that ice time, knowing what he was doing? As far as I see it, the coach is just as responsible as the player.

It depends on how I judge the severity to be. At most, if I don't think he's trying to injure the opponents, I might have given a 10-minute Misconduct basically for being a dumbass.

Key words: "Pro refs". These officials in a Rhode Island high school league are not professionals. To expect that kind of standard of officiating at that level is asinine.

Again, what are the cops doing there? I admit my lack of familiarity with the USA Hockey rulebook, but up here, unless I think the player is in serious physical danger, I have to wait until his team gets possession of the puck until I whistle play dead.

I think that instead of expecting professional standards for a high school league, and suspending officials when they don't assess a Game Misconduct that a league official thinks should have been assessed, how about having supervisors help train these officials? Instead of suspending them, tell them what you think they did wrong, and they will learn from that.

I don't know about down there, but up here, not many league executives have any officiating experience. That's why so many of their decisions on supplementary discipline is based on the word of the referees. They actually give us that respect up here. They wouldn't watch a video, disagree with what we did and ban us from the association. They would ask us our version of what happened and why we called what we did. Unless a referee is intentionally creating havoc (like telling a team to f*** off before a game ...we had a guy like that who got canned almost immediately), they would never ban us. They would give us more experience at a lower level until we're ready to make the next step.

In shorter terms, leagues and associations up here respect their officials and their associations. From what I hear about this RI high school league, they don't.

I don't know how many games you've officiated, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to determine something like that, unless he's kicking an opponent or slashing them a-la Marty McSorley.

Do you think you could do a better job than these officials? If so, why not convince this league official you talk to to put you on the ice?

Any gathering of over 150 people in RI requires a police officer and an additional cop for every 250 people after the original 150. Now since the Station Night Club fire, a fire marshall is required on hand. New policy this year, a team of two paramedics is required at the rink during the game (thank god since two kids went last night).

To my knowledge all the coach for the opposing team has done is call the other coach to apologize for his players actions. These guys make $2,500/year to coach high school hockey (unless it's a private school), the only recourse they'd have against the coach is to fire him.

Van, you're going to have to take my word that this kid's elbows were clearly obvious. His cross checks were obvious. The ref's were watching him, they tossed their arms up immediately but WHY they didn't throw him out is beyond me (and apparently everybody).

The Rhode Island Interscholastic League has some pull, if they ban the refs which apparently is a done deal, no other association in the state will hire them. In speaking with the coach he has told me they've had several issues in recent years with that set of officials and has constantly complained about them. Maybe they had their "final warning" prior to the game and that was it for them.

As far as "experience at another level"... this is the RIIL, they govern just high schools, there's no sending them down to bantams, midgets, etc. like there might be in a regular association.

I (nor anybody) am not expecting pro standards, I simply pointed it out because I figured somebody would come back and say it's stupid to say a kid should be thrown out just because the game is "over". It's not, the kid had 5 penalties so he should've been tossed anyway but with nothing on the line anymore the ref's job should be 100% safety of everybody on the ice and it wasn't.

And as far as out of control RI High School games... to put it into perspective... the series that this horrendous officiating occured, upon exiting the arena, you were met by around 8 or 9 police officers with more inside directing people out seperate exits.

Van, as an official it's tough for you to provide an objective opinion on this one. If an official is keeping an eye on a kid and the kid constantly committs infractions, excuse me, GROSS infractions, you toss him or give him a 10-minute misconduct.

Heck... one of the kid's from the team advanced (my old high school) was given a 10-minute penalty last night because he knocked the opposing goalie out after he came out to around the blue line to send the puck back. The goalie was a punk, two straight games he called the refs over to call the police over to tell the students to stop taunting.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Just to add as far as the cops being there... I'd say around 800-1,000 people there last night and there were 5 cops there.

Tonight the arena will be standing room only as it's the deciding game.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Van, you're going to have to take my word that this kid's elbows were clearly obvious. His cross checks were obvious. The ref's were watching him, they tossed their arms up immediately but WHY they didn't throw him out is beyond me (and apparently everybody).

Most penalties that are called are obvious infractions. Just because they're obvious of blatant doesn't mean they always warrant misconducts along with them.

As far as "experience at another level"... this is the RIIL, they govern just high schools, there's no sending them down to bantams, midgets, etc. like there might be in a regular association.

The officials are registered with USA Hockey (from what I read here), which means they have to be registered with a local association. Somebody is providing the officials. It's like Jr.A in Canada....the officials are not officials for the leagues, they are officials provided by the provincial branches (IE: BCHL officials are provided by BCAHA).

 

[Schlep Rock]

The officials are registered with USA Hockey (from what I read here), which means they have to be registered with a local association. Somebody is providing the officials. It's like Jr.A in Canada....the officials are not officials for the leagues, they are officials provided by the provincial branches (IE: BCHL officials are provided by BCAHA).

Actually, they are registered with the RIIL and they are RIIL officials. The RIIL like I said is a big show and they have their own officials... the Rhode Island Amateur league has their own officials who are not RIIL officials.

 

[WhoozYerrDaddy]

Riil??

Actually, they are registered with the RIIL and they are RIIL officials. The RIIL like I said is a big show and they have their own officials... the Rhode Island Amateur league has their own officials who are not RIIL officials.

Not sure where to start with all this. Sounds like the RIIL may be a local chapter of National Ice Hockey Officials Association (NIHOA). They don't have have bantam or midgets to send their officials 'down' to. They do just just HS and college hockey and use the NCAA rulebook. They are supposedly the more experienced officials, working their way up through the USA Hockey ranks until the higher-ups in the local chapter of NIHOA decide that they are good enough (or kiss enough butt) to get in.

That would explain them being suspended. They pissed off the higher-ups in their local chapter, or they pissed off the league executives, or both.

Local politics at its best. It gets to the point where you are more worried about making the poliitically correct call, instead of the rulebook correct call. I have been there, done that...and it isn't fun.

USA Hockey officials and NIHOA officials are two distinct, separate organizations. You can belong to one or the other, or both. In this local area, NIHOA generally covers high school, D-1 and D-3 college, using the NCAA rulebook. USA Hockey officials work all amatuer hockey up to and including midgets (16 yr old), and uses the USA Hockey rulebook, obviously.

Question to Schlep Rock -- Are there two officials on the ice or three??? Do the on-ice officials wear the USA Hockey crest on their sweater, or the NIHOA crest??


Daddy

 

[Schlep Rock]

Question to Schlep Rock -- Are there two officials on the ice or three??? Do the on-ice officials wear the USA Hockey crest on their sweater, or the NIHOA crest??


Daddy

Two.

Come to think of it above their number it says NIHOA.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Two.

Come to think of it above their number it says NIHOA.

If they are in NIHOA then they arent just a "High School Referee Organization" like you said in a previous post. NIHOA does all youth hockey...cept most likely rec leagues they dont do(most rinks hire there own refs for that). Travel teams, tornments, Modified, JV, Varsity they do.

I am apart of NIHOA(WIHOA..WestchesterIHOA) and our R.I.C. would never suspend a referee...give the referee lower level games yes but not suspend. Dont know what type of clowns they got running the show over there.

And yes..if they are wearing there NIHOA crests then it is NCAA rules(or possibly Federation Rules)..not USA rules.

 

[BCCHL inactive]

Check this out, from the BCHL website...

I have always wondered just how difficult a task it must be for an on- ice official during a hockey game.

Officiating has got to be one of the most difficult responsibilities an individual can take on. Officials are a target for verbal abuse by those who deem themselves competent. Psychologically this must be a stressful position; an arena full of knowledgeable hockey fans sitting in their seats (presumably holding a copy of the officiating rules) and evaluating every move and call the refs make.

It has been more than once that I have said to a few people (who seem to be expert on the subject of officiating) that they should go to a referee clinic. The instructors would be more than willing to assist anyone who wants to put on the stripes and give them all the training available. The position includes: low pay, your decisions questioned at a moment¹s notice and, in more cases than not, disrespect shown for your inability to make the ³ proper ³ call. And Lord help you don¹t ever be late or not show for a game.

That is a cardinal sin. Oh yes, and may I ask you one question? When was the last time that you showed up for work and everyone gave you a rousing boo of disapproval upon your entrance? Well, that comes with the package too. My theory on the subject is this: when an official skates on to the ice, greet him with a rousing cheer (a psychological employment that will give him a welcoming feeling to his surroundings).

Rest of article here: http://www.bchl.bc.ca/leagues/newsletter.cfm?leagueID=2393&clientID=1413&page=7335

 

[Schlep Rock]

If they are in NIHOA then they arent just a "High School Referee Organization" like you said in a previous post. NIHOA does all youth hockey...cept most likely rec leagues they dont do(most rinks hire there own refs for that). Travel teams, tornments, Modified, JV, Varsity they do.

I am apart of NIHOA(WIHOA..WestchesterIHOA) and our R.I.C. would never suspend a referee...give the referee lower level games yes but not suspend. Dont know what type of clowns they got running the show over there.

And yes..if they are wearing there NIHOA crests then it is NCAA rules(or possibly Federation Rules)..not USA rules.

Well I can tell you these officials only did high school games. Maybe they refused other assignments, I don't know but they only did high school. We'll see where they go from here.

 

[Schlep Rock]

Check this out, from the BCHL website...

I have always wondered just how difficult a task it must be for an on- ice official during a hockey game.

Officiating has got to be one of the most difficult responsibilities an individual can take on. Officials are a target for verbal abuse by those who deem themselves competent. Psychologically this must be a stressful position; an arena full of knowledgeable hockey fans sitting in their seats (presumably holding a copy of the officiating rules) and evaluating every move and call the refs make.

It has been more than once that I have said to a few people (who seem to be expert on the subject of officiating) that they should go to a referee clinic. The instructors would be more than willing to assist anyone who wants to put on the stripes and give them all the training available. The position includes: low pay, your decisions questioned at a moment¹s notice and, in more cases than not, disrespect shown for your inability to make the ³ proper ³ call. And Lord help you don¹t ever be late or not show for a game.

That is a cardinal sin. Oh yes, and may I ask you one question? When was the last time that you showed up for work and everyone gave you a rousing boo of disapproval upon your entrance? Well, that comes with the package too. My theory on the subject is this: when an official skates on to the ice, greet him with a rousing cheer (a psychological employment that will give him a welcoming feeling to his surroundings).

Rest of article here: http://www.bchl.bc.ca/leagues/newsletter.cfm?leagueID=2393&clientID=1413&page=7335

Van,

As I said... you can't provide an objective viewpoint here.

And I'm sorry but I have to laugh, "Officiating has got to be one of the most difficult responsibilities an individual can take on" It sounds like we're talking about those in the armed services now!

I respect ref's and what they do is hard but one of the most difficult responsibilities an individual can take on??

 

[Isles72]

When I was slightly younger(late 20's) I almost gave it a whirl .

if you love the game , its an excellent way to supplament your income without it seeming like actual ''work''

you guys mentioned how much $$ you make reffing .

how much do time keepers /public announcer make ?

my bad back would prevent me from reffing , but doing some time -keeping /stats etc..would interest me

 

[WhoozYerrDaddy]

NIHOA does all youth hockey...cept most likely rec leagues they dont do(most rinks hire there own refs for that). Travel teams, tornments, Modified, JV, Varsity they do.

I am apart of NIHOA(WIHOA..WestchesterIHOA) and our R.I.C. would never suspend a referee...give the referee lower level games yes but not suspend. Dont know what type of clowns they got running the show over there.

And yes..if they are wearing there NIHOA crests then it is NCAA rules(or possibly Federation Rules)..not USA rules.

You are contradicting yourself here. Just about all, if not all youth hockey in the US plays USA Hockey rules. If the kids in your area play NCAA rules, then they are in the vast minority. Not to mention that they aren't registered with USA Hockey, are not covered by USA Hockey insurance, and are not eligible to compete in, or host state and national youth championship tournaments. I would be VERY surprised that the kids in your area are playing NCAA rules, but I suppose it isn't impossible.

By the way, NCAA stands for National Collegiate Athletic Association.

An easy way to tell....You are officiating a pee wee travel game (12 year olds). Are you using the immediate offsides rule, or are you playing the tag-up rule?? The answer you give determines whether the kids are playing USA or NCAA. When you officate pee wees, are you wearing your USA crest or your NIHOA crest??

I would be willing to bet that your answers will be 'immediate off-sides'...and 'USA Hockey crest'.

Not trying to cause problems here, just trying to clarify a few things.

Daddy

 

[Schlep Rock]

The Rhode Island Interscholastic league (high schools) allow the players to tag-up while last midget game I saw they didn't allow them to.

 

[WhoozYerrDaddy]

The Rhode Island Interscholastic league (high schools) allow the players to tag-up

OK -- RIIL = NIHOA = high schools

while last midget game I saw they didn't allow them to.

and -- midget game = immediate offsides =USA Hockey

As I thought ..

Daddy