Prospect Info: Anthony Mantha

[InjuredChoker]

Talk on pipelineshow at around 12:40.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I know history doesn't predict future; I know Mantha is late birthday; I didn't look at goal scoring pace but scamming though EP, here is a list of guys since 2002 that have scored over 50 goals in CHL on their draft year and busted:

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know history doesn't predict future; I know Mantha is late birthday; I didn't look at goal scoring pace but scamming though EP, here is a list of guys since 2002 that have scored over 50 goals in CHL on their draft year and busted:

guessing you mean there are none?

 

[InjuredChoker]

guessing you mean there are none?

Anthony Mantha

 

[ricky0034]

I know history doesn't predict future; I know Mantha is late birthday; I didn't look at goal scoring pace but scamming though EP, here is a list of guys since 2002 that have scored over 50 goals in CHL on their draft year and busted:

the list itself is actually pretty impressive too:

guys that were drafted that put up 50 goals in the CHL the first year they were draft eligible since 2001-2002(there may have been one or two that put up 50 the first year they were eligible and then weren't drafted although that sounds unlikely it isn't something I checked):

Anthony Mantha
Jeff Skinner
John Tavares
Steven Stamkos
Patrick Kane
Sidney Crosby
Joffrey Lupul

 

[InjuredChoker]

the list itself is actually pretty impressive too:

guys that were drafted that put up 50 goals in the CHL the first year they were draft eligible since 2001-2002(there may have been one or two that put up 50 the first year they were eligible and then weren't drafted although that sounds unlikely it isn't something I checked):

Anthony Mantha
Jeff Skinner
John Tavares
Steven Stamkos
Patrick Kane
Sidney Crosby
Joffrey Lupul

Interesting note is that four kids were 1st ovr. picks, two went 7th ovr. and Mantha #20

 

[Henkka]

Interesting note is that four kids were 1st ovr. picks, two went 7th ovr. and Mantha #20

Other GM's just went crazy.

All that 1st round I was hearing how great forwards this draft is having deep in the 2nd round and everybody was picking defencemen before our turn for Mantha came.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Interesting note is that four kids were 1st ovr. picks, two went 7th ovr. and Mantha #20

Not sure thats a good thing then.

 

[mindfly]

Is Mantha really going to be in the prospect tournament in september? (before the main red wings training camp). Atleast he says so in the interview.... but IIRC just recent drafted players aren't usually part of it(?)

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Is Mantha really going to be in the prospect tournament in september? (before the main red wings training camp). Atleast he says so in the interview.... but IIRC just recent drafted players aren't usually part of it(?)

Our recently drafted prospects aren't usually turning 19 in September either. Wouldn't surprise me with his size and everything and really the areas they want him to improve on the most if he isn't brought to training camp. Now he has no shot of making the team but I expect to see a little more of him than recent draft picks. This would follow that line of thinking, if he is indeed going to be at the prospect tournament.

 

[sarcastro]

Other GM's just went crazy.

All that 1st round I was hearing how great forwards this draft is having deep in the 2nd round and everybody was picking defencemen before our turn for Mantha came.

It's not rocket science - there are a lot of concerns about his motor and teams are afraid to gamble high picks on players that don't play hard. Guys drop for a reason, even if they go on to overcome those concerns.

I don't really mind that he has those question marks - if he didn't, then he would have been a top 5 pick and wouldn't be in the Wings' pipeline. The big questions are, can they get through to him that he can be absolutely dominant if he puts in the work? And is he even capable of putting in the work? If he keeps getting stronger and puts an every-shift effort out there, he looks like he could be a beast. We'll see.

 

[joe89]

Our recently drafted prospects aren't usually turning 19 in September either. Wouldn't surprise me with his size and everything and really the areas they want him to improve on the most if he isn't brought to training camp. Now he has no shot of making the team but I expect to see a little more of him than recent draft picks. This would follow that line of thinking, if he is indeed going to be at the prospect tournament.

I think it would be good for a guy who thinks he can play. Test him, show him what it's all about, and hopefully he'll go back to juniors to work hard on his weaknesses. Much better than to just send him back and say work on this and that. It'll be more effective if he finds out for himself.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think it would be good for a guy who thinks he can play. Test him, show him what it's all about, and hopefully he'll go back to juniors to work hard on his weaknesses. Much better than to just send him back and say work on this and that. It'll be more effective if he finds out for himself.

Pretty much why I like this idea and want him there. He will get to see how hard these guys work right now, gain an appreciation for what he isn't doing.

Of course the scary version of this is we know he isn't ready, but he pops in four goals in the pre-season because of his filthy abilities, then we have problem on our hands. I know most won't look at it that way, but having a hard training camp is what I am looking for, get his compete level up. The he scores a bunch thing while we would all be going nuts, if he isn't doing it through working his tail off, might have the reverse of what we were going for.

 

[cjm502]

If a guy who doesnt compete scored 50 goals how many would he have scored if he was known for being a hard worker?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If a guy who doesnt compete scored 50 goals how many would he have scored if he was known for being a hard worker?

Part of what makes him so intriguing, but the reason he fell. Very tough to score or stick in the NHL with a poor compete level. Part of what cracks me up about the Franzen bashing around here.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Part of what makes him so intriguing, but the reason he fell. Very tough to score or stick in the NHL with a poor compete level. Part of what cracks me up about the Franzen bashing around here.

Franzen signed on April 11, 2009.

At the end of 2008, Franzen scored 15 goals in 16 games.
Then in the 08 playoffs, Franzen scored 13 goals in 16 games
Then in 2009, until April 10, he scored 34 goals in 69 games.

During this stretch, Franzen scored 62 goals in 101 games
That's a 50 goal pace.

Now, if you want to know some Wings fans thought it was OK to sign mule instead of Hossa -- Before Hossa ever played a playoff game in Detroit -- that's why.

Some Detroit fans thought they'd just found a giant powerforward who could scored at a 40 to 50 goal pace.

Was some of Franzen's streak just luck? Sure.
But Franzen hasn't approached the eyepopping goal scoring ability he showed.

People will point to his caphit, and say, but a 28 goal guy is fine for $4m ayear.
But this wasn't a 5 year contract. This was a lifetime contract.

We were securing him for life based on 100 games or so.

I think questioning Franzen's effort is fair. We questioned Flip's effort quite a bit, and that was deserved, too.

Questions about Franzen's effort and commitment are legit, IMO.

He scored at a 50 goal pace for 101 games.
285 106
Since then he has 106 goals in 285 games -- which is a 30.4 goal pace

50.4 to 30.4

That's a huge fall.

So... to sum up Franzen's Red Wing career

Early Career 36 goals 229 games - 12.9 goals per 82 games
Beastmode til April 11 Contract -- 62 goals in 101 games, 50.3 goals per 82 games
Franzen Floater mode - 106 goals in 285 games - 30.4 goals per 82 games

 

[Petes2424]

the list itself is actually pretty impressive too:

guys that were drafted that put up 50 goals in the CHL the first year they were draft eligible since 2001-2002(there may have been one or two that put up 50 the first year they were eligible and then weren't drafted although that sounds unlikely it isn't something I checked):

Anthony Mantha
Jeff Skinner
John Tavares
Steven Stamkos
Patrick Kane
Sidney Crosby
Joffrey Lupul

That's exactly why I sat here for three months saying Mantha was the Wings best scenario in the draft. I also think he plays in the league pretty quickly. I wouldnt be surprised if he gets 5-7 games to start THIS season. We'll see..

 

[Petes2424]

If a guy who doesnt compete scored 50 goals how many would he have scored if he was known for being a hard worker?

He has a knack for sneaking into open spots on the ice. Much like Brett Hull did. Another player accused of being really lazy at about this age. You dont score 50 without competing. Remember, Drouin and Mackinnon both played in the same league and didnt hit 50.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He has a knack for sneaking into open spots on the ice. Much like Brett Hull did. Another player accused of being really lazy at about this age. You dont score 50 without competing. Remember, Drouin and Mackinnon both played in the same league and didnt hit 50.

MacKinnon is 350 days younger.

He had 32 goals in 44 games .66 goal rate to go along with 43 assist

Playoffs 17 games 11 goals 22 assists

Drouin is 6 months younger

He had 41 goals in 49 games .83 goal rate to go with 64 assists

Playoffs 17 games 12 goals 23 assists

Mantha

Had 50 goals in 67 games .74 goal rate along with 39 assists

playoffs 9 games 5 goals and 7 assists

So Drouin actually had a higher goal rate in both the regular season and playoffs. Missed some time due to injury and the WJC, but careful here, Drouin was in fact a better goal scorer in their draft years. Much higher PPG average

MacKinnon higher goal average in the playoffs, much higher ppg average

Now that is not to say what Mantha did should be brushed off, but comparing him to these two that went higher and went higher for significant reasons is dangerous. I am really counting on Mantha to put it together, I hope he does. He is the oldest player in his draft year, he should be fairly far along, he is only a month younger than Athanasiou for instance and a mere 14 months younger than Xavier Ouellet. Keep that in mind also.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

One thing I don't like about Mantha is he seems to lack "pop" in his game. I see a lot of pretty mundane looking goals .. not much speed or acceleration. not many great moves or amazing snipe shots

 

[Petes2424]

MacKinnon is 350 days younger.

He had 32 goals in 44 games .66 goal rate to go along with 43 assist

Playoffs 17 games 11 goals 22 assists

Drouin is 6 months younger

He had 41 goals in 49 games .83 goal rate to go with 64 assists

Playoffs 17 games 12 goals 23 assists

Mantha

Had 50 goals in 67 games .74 goal rate along with 39 assists

playoffs 9 games 5 goals and 7 assists

So Drouin actually had a higher goal rate in both the regular season and playoffs. Missed some time due to injury and the WJC, but careful here, Drouin was in fact a better goal scorer in their draft years. Much higher PPG average

MacKinnon higher goal average in the playoffs, much higher ppg average

Now that is not to say what Mantha did should be brushed off, but comparing him to these two that went higher and went higher for significant reasons is dangerous. I am really counting on Mantha to put it together, I hope he does. He is the oldest player in his draft year, he should be fairly far along, he is only a month younger than Athanasiou for instance and a mere 14 months younger than Xavier Ouellet. Keep that in mind also.

All year I've made it clear I'm a Mantha guy. Having said that, I'm not suggesting he's better than some of the others. I do have major reservations about Mackinnon though. I thought Nichushkin was the best player in the draft though and we can discuss why he fell, etc. I also think Drouin is better, along with Jones. Haven't seen enough of Barkov to really judge him, so we shall see there. I honestly think Mackinnon isn't ready to play in the NHL and would be served better playing junior again. I know that's not a popular opinion but I'm a big believer in the World Juniors where you're playing out of your comfort zone and Mackinnon was short on moments for me where as Drouin had the "it" factor as did Some others. Maybe I'm wrong. We shall see. I also think Roy is in over his head as an NHL coach and that's not the best fit for him. As for Mantha, he's natural and he comes from a pedigree which seems to mean something in hockey. He's gonna be fine.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

All year I've made it clear I'm a Mantha guy. Having said that, I'm not suggesting he's better than some of the others. I do have major reservations about Mackinnon though. I thought Nichushkin was the best player in the draft though and we can discuss why he fell, etc. I also think Drouin is better, along with Jones. Haven't seen enough of Barkov to really judge him, so we shall see there. I honestly think Mackinnon isn't ready to play in the NHL and would be served better playing junior again. I know that's not a popular opinion but I'm a big believer in the World Juniors where you're playing out of your comfort zone and Mackinnon was short on moments for me where as Drouin had the "it" factor as did Some others. Maybe I'm wrong. We shall see. I also think Roy is in over his head as an NHL coach and that's not the best fit for him. As for Mantha, he's natural and he comes from a pedigree which seems to mean something in hockey. He's gonna be fine.

MacKinnon is probably the most explosive skater I have seen since Bure in terms of acceleration and speed, he doesn't necessarily handle the puck at the same top end speed but it should be noted he beat every other draft prospect in a skating drill with the puck and the other guys didn't have it.

MacKinnon has that it factor for me, he was the better of the two in the Memorial Cup. He is going to be a terrific player and he plays physical and has an extremely high end compete level. Maybe not as flashy, but his hands are still fantastic. Been high on Jones all along and remain unchanged there, but I take MacKinnon over every other forward in this draft quite comfortably. Also because he plays center, as great as Drouin is he will not impact the entirety of the game in the way MacKinnon will and MacKinnon does already have a very nice two way game for a 17 year old. And remember that MacKinnon is 17 until September 1st.

 

[Petes2424]

MacKinnon is probably the most explosive skater I have seen since Bure in terms of acceleration and speed, he doesn't necessarily handle the puck at the same top end speed but it should be noted he beat every other draft prospect in a skating drill with the puck and the other guys didn't have it.

MacKinnon has that it factor for me, he was the better of the two in the Memorial Cup. He is going to be a terrific player and he plays physical and has an extremely high end compete level. Maybe not as flashy, but his hands are still fantastic. Been high on Jones all along and remain unchanged there, but I take MacKinnon over every other forward in this draft quite comfortably. Also because he plays center, as great as Drouin is he will not impact the entirety of the game in the way MacKinnon will and MacKinnon does already have a very nice two way game for a 17 year old. And remember that MacKinnon is 17 until September 1st.

That's absolutely fair. I might be wrong. My opinion forms out of two things. The Worlds and the fact of who he played with. If we switched he and Monohan, I have to wonder. I think he's a hell of a player. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of Alexander Daigle in him though. I wanna see him play against the big boys and honestly, I'm not sure he can just yet.

 

[Henkka]

Early Career 36 goals 229 games - 12.9 goals per 82 games
Beastmode til April 11 Contract -- 62 goals in 101 games, 50.3 goals per 82 games
Franzen Floater mode - 106 goals in 285 games - 30.4 goals per 82 games

Nice sum up. Didn't remember he was that good at his best.

Career average 27.2 goals per 82 games.

 

[Henkka]

If a guy who doesnt compete scored 50 goals how many would he have scored if he was known for being a hard worker?

Maybe he'll get exhausted of that hard working and scores less.