Another "Southern Belt Is A Failure" Article

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
21,890
6,905
Toronto
Exactly!

After being in the toilet for a period of 7 years (no more, no less), the loonie will be revitalized when Mexico gets workers rights and its oil price skyrockets.

Because the economy works in cycles. Sometimes its high, sometimes its low.

EDIT: To those who responded with seriousness, I was taking out of my ass. I have no idea how Canada- U.S oil relations works, or even the broader economic principles of such a complex relationship.

On a serious note, Half of Canada's oil is controlled by American companies. So yeah don't buy from them :laugh:
 

Pantokrator

Who's the clown?
Jan 27, 2004
6,147
1,311
Semmes, Alabama
The problem with failing hockey teams is that they often have owners who want to make a buck instead of already having billions and not caring about turning a profit. If the NHL were smart, they would only award teams with owners who are billionaires who want to win.

This is why Jim Ballsillie (sp?) would be a perfect owner. He has money, he doesn't mind spending it, and he wants to win. This is the formula for long term sustainability. Of course, I haven't done any research, so please feel free to show me where I err.
 

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
The term "small number" is my point. It's antagonistic and combative... and also misinformed.

I don't think so, not at all, especially when he was quite clear that there is quite a gap between the huge money makers (including the New York Rangers) and those that are absolutely dreadful, who are primarily, if not exclusively, the typical southern/non traditional hockey market.
 

optimus2861

Registered User
Aug 29, 2005
5,044
531
Bedford NS
North Carolina: 1990-929
2010-5,598
Growth- 500%

California: 1990-4483
2010-20404
Growth-322%
Florida- 1990-1200
2010-10856
Growth-800%
Georgia- 1990-314
2010-2142
Growth-478%
Texas- 1990-868
2010-10909
Growth- 1100%

Those are some pretty impressive numbers, especially for Florida, Texas and North Carolina.
So the NHL plunked franchises into all these non-traditional markets, kept them there for close to two decades, and the "impressive" minor hockey registration numbers we're seeing, for states that have a combined population of nearly 90 million Americans, come out to a grand total of 49,909 that just barely edges out..

Atlantic Canada:
NB 16,586
NS 17,937
PEI 5,848
NL 9,466
Total 49,837 (as of 2008/2009)
Total population about 2.2 million

:help:
 

Alex The Loyal

Andlauer Appreciator
Dec 4, 2010
5,332
195
UK
So the NHL plunked franchises into all these non-traditional markets, kept them there for close to two decades, and the "impressive" minor hockey registration numbers we're seeing, for states that have a combined population of nearly 90 million Americans, come out to a grand total of 49,909 that just barely edges out..

Atlantic Canada:
NB 16,586
NS 17,937
PEI 5,848
NL 9,466
Total 49,837 (as of 2008/2009)
Total population about 2.2 million

:help:
Hahaha. Impressive numbers indeed
 

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
The terms "deserved" and "failed" are often thrown around too much and misused in discussions like this one.

Agreed, and I also think there's some oversensitivity over those words as well.

But "misused"? Yes, and some misinterpretation of ideas whether it be in the writing of a post or the reading of a post.

I think it would help if most of us practiced a little more tolerance when it comes to differing hockey cultures/backgrounds.
 

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
The problem with failing hockey teams is that they often have owners who want to make a buck instead of already having billions and not caring about turning a profit. If the NHL were smart, they would only award teams with owners who are billionaires who want to win.

This is why Jim Ballsillie (sp?) would be a perfect owner. He has money, he doesn't mind spending it, and he wants to win. This is the formula for long term sustainability. Of course, I haven't done any research, so please feel free to show me where I err.

And JB is a huge hockey/NHL fan.

He has RIM boardrooms named after some NHL greats, he also regularly rents ice to play hockey.
 

Puckschmuck*

Guest
I don't really think the Sunbelt hockey experiment has failed entirely, but it has failed in some cities.

This, 100x times. The article is somewhat biased towards all southern teams. I think it's pretty clear to all of us that not all southern teams are "failures" so it's clear that SOME markets are working, however there are a few that fall fairly close to that term.
 

Duke749

Savannah Ghost Pirates
Apr 6, 2010
47,750
22,632
Canton, Georgia
This, 100x times. The article is somewhat biased towards all southern teams. I think it's pretty clear to all of us that not all southern teams are "failures" so it's clear that SOME markets are working, however there are a few that fall fairly close to that term.

I have a question. I'm curious to know if you think the Atlanta "market" is a failure?
 

Adz

Eudora Wannabe
Sponsor
Jun 18, 2005
7,515
3,097
Hermitage TN
And JB is a huge hockey/NHL fan.

He has RIM boardrooms named after some NHL greats, he also regularly rents ice to play hockey.

My dentist has large posters of all the Preds players in the office. She's also the team dentist. She is probably rich. Do you think that qualifies her to be an owner?

;-)
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
I have a question. I'm curious to know if you think the Atlanta "market" is a failure?

You didnt ask me specifically, but no its not. The NHL, Cousins (late 70's) & ASG failed the market.
 

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
My dentist has large posters of all the Preds players in the office. She's also the team dentist. She is probably rich. Do you think that qualifies her to be an owner?

;-)

Seeing as how much dental work is required by hockey players, yes, I think she qualifies as an owner and as such, I think she should give the players a deal on sabretooth implants ;)
 

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
You didnt ask me specifically, but no its not. The NHL, Cousins (late 70's) & ASG failed the market.

Agreed 100%, but it still doesn't prove that a viable NHL market exists in Atlanta either. It wouldn't surprise me either way.

As it stands now, I have a huge degree of sympathy for Atlanta NHL fans who have definitely been let down by owners of the Flames and Thrashers. Major suckage! How much of that blame lies with the NHL and its vetting process?
 

Puckschmuck*

Guest
I have a question. I'm curious to know if you think the Atlanta "market" is a failure?


For Phoenix, I'll say yes. For Atlanta, it's no more of a failure than Winnipeg was. However, just like Winnipeg, no one commited in time to save the team from relocation.

The two are very similar in this case, and also in the case that Winnipeg is getting a second chance.
 

jkrdevil

UnRegistered User
Apr 24, 2006
42,633
12,472
Miami
I think there is a big confusion between Sun-belt franchise and new franchise when it comes to success. I don't think location has a lot to do with the success or failure of an new expansion team as much as management and ownership do. Like any business when it comes to a new team in a market it takes time to build a tradition and fan base. Sure you may get early excitement, but again like any business you have to make sure you give those people to come back. It is like this really with any new team. There are very few if any teams that were successful right off the bat. Most have built their fan bases over years and generations.

One can argue Philadelphia wan't a traditional market when the league awarded them a team. Various hockey teams failed there through the years before the Flyers. And even the Flyers struggled the first several. What the Flyers had was good management where they survived those early years and were able to build a fan base (in part by building a great team).

You give a Canadian team (particularly a younger one) similar ownership issues as Atlanta you don't think it would have a similar affect on the business side?
 

dronald

Registered User
Mar 4, 2011
1,171
0
Hamilton, ON
I think there is a big confusion between Sun-belt franchise and new franchise when it comes to success. I don't think location has a lot to do with the success or failure of an new expansion team as much as management and ownership do. Like any business when it comes to a new team in a market it takes time to build a tradition and fan base. Sure you may get early excitement, but again like any business you have to make sure you give those people to come back. It is like this really with any new team. There are very few if any teams that were successful right off the bat. Most have built their fan bases over years and generations.

One can argue Philadelphia wan't a traditional market when the league awarded them a team. Various hockey teams failed there through the years before the Flyers. And even the Flyers struggled the first several. What the Flyers had was good management where they survived those early years and were able to build a fan base (in part by building a great team).

You give a Canadian team (particularly a younger one) similar ownership issues as Atlanta you don't think it would have a similar affect on the business side?

I would argue though that people are more inclined to get into a sport if they can play it in (around) their own backyard. Unfortuneately in Atlanta or Phoenix the only ice they have is what they put in their drinks. A large majority of people in NYC, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Toronto etc etc etc have public outdoor rinks and home made outdoor rinks, free to skate on throughout the whole winter.

I'm not saying people wont like Hockey where it's warm, I'm just saying that if you can strap on some skates, grab a stick and go play with your friends 5 months out of the year, you're more likely to get involved in the sport.
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
11,364
2,032
Its impossible to know with certainty how many franchises Canada could support. I think 9-12 is reasonable.

Southern Ontario could support two more teams; another in Toronto and one in the Hamilton area. There are tons of major corporations with deep pockets who could buy suites. And there are more than enough fans in the area to support three teams. Anyone who says otherwise has probably never been to the area. Now, will it happen? Probably not. The more teams in the area, the worse it is for MLSE. That doesnt just impact the Leafs, but also the Raptors and TFC. If people have more hockey options, they may spend less on the other sports. Which wont make MLSE happy.

I dont know Montreal or Vancouver well enough to know if second teams would work, but much like Toronto, with the numbers of corporations there, and the size of the cities its logical to say additional teams could work.

Winnipeg is obviously back, and Quebec City should get another go, hopefully by 12-13.

Someone compared the Habs to the Yanks. If I recall correctly, I believe another baseball team has managed to survive in New York along those very same New York Yankees.

Did Atlanta fail as a market? Yes! Twice!!

The overall issue about the sunbelt is not fair in the sense that every market is unique. They each have their own issues that will dictate success or failure long term. I think the overall point is that when Gretzky was traded to LA, the league took to trying to make hockey a legit sport in the southern US. They expanded or moved teams to these new markets, and we're slowly seeing who will last.

I'm a believer in putting teams in places where enough people like hockey. And not just fans who will only go if they get 20% off their hot dogs, or if the team is doing great; I want real passionate fans. I watch tons of games throughout the season, and there is a correlation to bigger/enthusiastic crowds and colder temperatures.

Someone said it shouldnt matter if you're from a place where the pond freezes over in the winter. But that totally does matter. Thats why (hold on to your hats) the best hockey nations are generally cold climates. You grow up with the frozen pond, you learn to skate at 2 or 3, and you've got a hockey stick in your hand soon after. I'm guessing that doesnt happen very often in Atlanta, or Sunrise, or Tampa, or Dallas, or etc etc

I wouldnt get offended if some American tried to explain to me that Canadians dont have the same love of baseball or football because its not such a huge part of our identity. Does that mean every city in Canada can support an NHL franchise? Of course not. But it does mean that all things being equal, the Canadian city will support their team better than the comparable American city. Anyone who doesnt get that is dense.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
Seeing as how much dental work is required by hockey players, yes, I think she qualifies as an owner and as such, I think she should give the players a deal on sabretooth implants ;)

:thumbu: You may have just started a new trend with Preds' fans in Nashville. Removable type.

Agreed 100%, but it still doesn't prove that a viable NHL market exists in Atlanta either. It wouldn't surprise me either way. How much of that blame lies with the NHL and its vetting process?

Im going with my gut & market size, H.O. & media concentration etc, and I think it is. Its also a critical market IMO for the league to be taken seriously not only in the South but throughout the US. Frankly, Cousins' should have been forced to accept one of the local offers for the Flames' back in 1980 by the league itself, however, it was a different era & not exactly square to be telling someone to turn down an offer that was double for the relo to Calgary, but still. With ASG, who knew?. At the time, they seemed enthused, honorable & proud to takeover the franchise. %&#t happens.

The two are very similar in this case, and also in the case that Winnipeg is getting a second chance.

Your lucky in that your ownership is a known & proven commodity. No such luxury for the good people of Atlanta.
 

Steve Passless*

Guest
Its also a critical market IMO for the league to be taken seriously not only in the South but throughout the US.

Your opinion is probably wrong. I don't think the extent to which the NHL is taken seriously hinges upon fielding a team in Atlanta, especially after teams left twice. People at large still think of hockey as a northern sport, and as such give little to no consideration to Atlanta's place or lack thereof in major league hockey.
 

Adz

Eudora Wannabe
Sponsor
Jun 18, 2005
7,515
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Hermitage TN
It is true that people in Canada have more opportunities to get out and ice skate but the sport is growing here. If a child is interested, there are hockey teams to join...but the difference between here and Canada is that it HAS to be in an ice rink or an inline rink and that typically costs money. It involves a commitment to the game and to practices and possibly to doing without something in order to buy equipment--which may or may not be available used. So there's a trade off. A child in Canada may develop superior skills as a matter of course, but in the south, a child has to truly love the game enough to give the sport the commitment it will take in time and dollars to succeed.
 

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