another rumbling:

JMCx4

Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
Sep 3, 2017
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But times could and has changed since the rumor deal with Kansas City/Mavericks and the Blues now that Seattle is now in the picture for an NHL expansion team. Sure the Blues have signed a 5 yr deal to have San Antonio to be their AHL affiliate, but I'm sure that if something comes up during that time period, that there is a provision that the Blues can buy out the remaining portion of the agreement and go after getting their own AHL team. ...
While it pains me (and slightly embarrasses me) to come down on HUTCH's side of this debate, there is no evidence - current nor historical - that the Blues' ownership has any desire to own an AHL franchise. It became quite clear when they sold the Peoria-based AHL franchise to Vancouver then partnered with the CHI Wolves that they wanted to focus their efforts (and monies) solely on running an NHL team. Their subsequent affiliation agreement with San Antonio amplifies that business model, with SS&E retaining Rampage franchise ownership while Blues Hockey Ops manages their AHL prospects pool. Whatever Hunt Jr. decides to do with his hockey assets - the Mavericks & his USHL franchise rights - is a completely different matter.
 
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CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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for those unaware: St. John's will be returning alongside Maine (Portland), and renewing rivalries with Worcester and Manchester in 2018/19.... the arbitration issue between the owners of the new St. John's franchise, SJSE, (who operates Mile One) and the NBL-(CAN) St. John's Edge have settled their differences to co-exist..... this will return MLSE to the province of Newfoundland where they had operated at Mile One prior to the Q ENTERING said market, and the arrival of TNSE and the Canadiens following. Glenn Stanford will resume his daily overseeing of hockey in NFLD
 

DudeWhereIsMakar

Bergevin sent me an offer sheet
Apr 25, 2014
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Seattle and San Antonio will have to be affiliated with one another as they are one of the affiliates that is owned independently. Although, I already think they're a bad fit. Vegas and Chicago are an amazing fit and they should be affiliated as long as possible.

I think that Florida or Arizona should be affiliated with San Antonio, even San Jose would be a good fit too. St. Louis is affiliated with them for the next five years.

I personally think Seattle should be affiliated with Salt Lake City, Boise or a California team. If worst comes to worst they could share an affiliate.

Although, I could name many places that need fixing up in the AHL. Vancouver does have a great relationship with Utica, but the only fault is the distance.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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Seattle and San Antonio will have to be affiliated with one another as they are one of the affiliates that is owned independently. Although, I already think they're a bad fit. Vegas and Chicago are an amazing fit and they should be affiliated as long as possible.

I think that Florida or Arizona should be affiliated with San Antonio, even San Jose would be a good fit too. St. Louis is affiliated with them for the next five years.

I personally think Seattle should be affiliated with Salt Lake City, Boise or a California team. If worst comes to worst they could share an affiliate.

Although, I could name many places that need fixing up in the AHL. Vancouver does have a great relationship with Utica, but the only fault is the distance.

uh, not going to happen: St. Louis has a 5 year commitment in place in San Antonio, so no on the Rampage backing out when Seattle is a reality in 2021/22, Makar....

Arizona owns Tucson, the former Springfield Falcons, so no, there. Florida stated they wanted to be aligned with a Eastern affiliate, they left San Antonio... for Portland, now the Thunderbirds.

San Jose left the same year the Pacific was finally created, as did LA, Makar, even though, the Kings sold ownership stake in the Monarchs a year after that transaction, they will be a Kings affiliate as long as Luc Robitaille has any say in the Kings business department or the Monarchs seek other franchise affiliates, likely the way Florida has done...

Utah is a no, (hence why Cleveland has their AHL FRANCHISE) after the Grizzlies owners backed out after both being sued by Dallas and Arizona for breach of contract, there simply is no California city available that doesn't infkinge on the existing AHL CA markets AND TNHE DUAL affiliation idea is done, the League will approve a 1 year stopgap, but no more than that....
 

royals119

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there simply is no California city available that doesn't infkinge on the existing AHL CA markets .
I'm not saying any of these will happen for sure, but Fresno, Long Beach, and San Francisso have all had hockey teams in the past that co-existed with some or all of the current cities, and Sacremento is a big city that doesn't have hockey. Certainly there are options in California for a motivated NHL owner. I wouldn't be surprised to see existing AHL teams waive any exclusive territory rights in order to get another team nearby. Their goal in putting the teams close was to reduce travel. They aren't there to make a big profit off the AHL teams.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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I'm not saying any of these will happen for sure, but Fresno, Long Beach, and San Francisso have all had hockey teams in the past that co-existed with some or all of the current cities, and Sacremento is a big city that doesn't have hockey. Certainly there are options in California for a motivated NHL owner. I wouldn't be surprised to see existing AHL teams waive any exclusive territory rights in order to get another team nearby. Their goal in putting the teams close was to reduce travel. They aren't there to make a big profit off the AHL teams.

Fresno and SF, likely won't be considered, royals, you already have an existing team already in place in SF's case, between the Sharks, the Barracuda, the training site for both, and how long will SVSE continue to put both teams in HP Pavilion...

Fresno, really, after how the Falcons imploded the way they did, I'm not too sure either arena (Save Mart or Seiland) is too keen on attempting a pro franchise, when the Monsters team that came about there has served Fresno quite well...

then you throw the major state colleges out there into the mix, LBSU (Long Beach) how really realistic pushback are you going to see there, like you've seen out here with Lowell basically saying no more pro franchises in a collegiate town, as why UMASS-Lowell has sole rights to the Tsongas Center, is the need really served to over saturate CA?
 

Avsrule2022

"No more rats"
Apr 4, 2012
683
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Longmont, CO
St. Louis has a 5 year commitment in place in San Antonio

Meaningless. If both parties were agree to go separate ways next year, or the year after, they would. We have seen it happen many, many times where the affiliation agreement is cancelled/voided/bought out/ect. ect. ect. The above quoted statement can't seriously be used in any discussion, in my opinion. It's been proven to be an invalid argument.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
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Meaningless. If both parties were agree to go separate ways next year, or the year after, they would. We have seen it happen many, many times where the affiliation agreement is cancelled/voided/bought out/ect. ect. ect. The above quoted statement can't seriously be used in any discussion, in my opinion. It's been proven to be an invalid argument.

invalid, based off what, Avs, has Colorado signed a lifetime contract with the Eagles since it was publically announced they're moving up... there's no IF..... IN THE Blues deal with San Antonio, maybe Colorado should have no affiliates at all based off what you're saying, and that's an invalid/un realistic discussion, then....
 

GrGriffins

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Jan 30, 2017
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I seriously doubt that, GR, SHOW ME EVIDENCE by 2021 or 22, which is when Seattle is scheduled to come aboard.... It is highly doubtful, given what transpired last summer, that the Hunts are even considering the Mavericks abandoning their current league(yes, they are the Flames affiliate as of now, but I do not see either the Blues nor the AHL revisiting any KC franchise, otherwise, why would they have ended all talk of the Mavericks doing what Colorado's Eagles (and others, notably Charlotte, comes to mind) will be doing in 2018/19.... and beyond....

I also don't see Vegas going through any issues with Don Levin and the Wolves over buyout of an agreement in which Vegas has sole control of all personnel, something that was negotiated, and why Vegas essentially replaced St. Louis as that contract wasn't going to be renewed, even if Vegas hadn't been the other party in those discussions, would the result have changed and Colorado's Eagles remain in their current league, I don't believe it would....

there was a rumor that Levin would've abandoned the Wolves had he been awarded the Seattle franchise, not OVG, TOO AT ONE POINT.

In fact, why is the ECHL stuck at 28 teams, potentially 29, IF PRO HOCKEY returns to St. John's, so if the AHL requires 32, the E, IS FURTHER behind as to the comment about # of franchises.

Will see what happens when Seattle officially becomes the 32nd NHL team and what they decide to do with their AHL affiliate when that time comes. It is still about 2-3 years out, so a lot can happen between now and then. Just reminding you and others of what happened to Vegas when they entered the NHl and how that happened when a lot of people on this board thought that Vegas AHL affiliate would be in Reno, Fresno, CA, Salt Lake City, etc etc and look what they ended up doing?

I'm not on a time machine Hutch, so I can not go into the future (2020-2021) and give you proof if the Blues are wanting back their own AHL affiliate or not because we (or most of us anyway) are in 2018. I also can not tell you who won the Stanley Cup, Calder Cup, Kelly Cup, and Memorial Cup Champions for the next 3 seasons either or tell you if the Maine Mariners are doing on and off the ice either. But if I can track down Marty McFly or Doc and if either one of them is going back to the future real soon, I will make sure to let them know and see if they can bring back online reports on these issues and you will be the first one to know about it.
 

PCSPounder

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Apr 12, 2012
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I'm not saying any of these will happen for sure, but Fresno, Long Beach, and San Francisso have all had hockey teams in the past that co-existed with some or all of the current cities, and Sacremento is a big city that doesn't have hockey. Certainly there are options in California for a motivated NHL owner. I wouldn't be surprised to see existing AHL teams waive any exclusive territory rights in order to get another team nearby. Their goal in putting the teams close was to reduce travel. They aren't there to make a big profit off the AHL teams.

Fresno- either you’re a poor second tenant to Fresno State at Save Mart Center, or you’re in Selland Arena in a downtown that gets no respect. In the end, it’s a college town and you have to want to spend there to make it work.

Long Beach- the Ice Dogs didn’t last all that long. It doesn’t really infringe on Ontario... the Inland Empire is, to some degree, its own market, the distance between the two is almost as long as Hartford to Bridgeport. Problems are prohibitive expense to promote anything in a hyper-crowded sports environment, never mind the ultra-crowded entertainment environment... and for Seattle? As if. Oh, BTW, Long Beach State isn’t Fresno State, they don’t have much pull locally except to keep Blair Field away from any future nascent Indy baseball league as they’ve kind of built the Dirtbag phenomenon.

San Francisco- Neither team they’ve had the last 20 years made it to season 3, no? If you think greater LA is expensive, you ain’t seen nothing like San Francisco. Not even the Sharks could afford to operate an affiliate there now.

On further reflection, it’s not like another team with an ownership with good promotion chops couldn’t try to exist in Fresno. It’s just that Seattle’s affiliate would do so much better close to home.
 

royals119

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Jun 12, 2006
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I'm not saying any of these California cities would be a good choice for an independently owned AHL franchise. And I'm not predicting any of them get teams. What I am saying, is IF either Vancouver or Seattle looks at what is happening with the other California teams and decides "1 - other nearby AHL teams, 2 - being in the same time zone as the NHL team and 3 - playing less games, are more important factors to us than money" they could decide to spend the money to put a team in one of those locations. Likely it won't be profitable, and possibly they will have to spend extra money to upgrade facilities, buy out another tenant, pay off another AHL team whose territory they are encroaching on, pay an expensive lease, etc. But IF they care more about developing young prospects than they do about a relatively small sum of money compared to their overall operation, and they feel those factors are important, they COULD do it. Hutch said it was impossible, no cities are available. I'm just saying it is possible, under the right circumstances.

If I were the Seattle owner, I would look for a location very close to Seattle. The fact that they have more STH deposits than seats in the arena means they could potentially sell some of those people AHL tickets instead. They could even give priority to those on the NHL STH wait list to anyone who is an AHL season ticket holder as an incentive. I'm sure this is way down the list of priorities for them right now, but based on the actions of other west coast NHL teams, and the overwhelming response to their ticket drive, it seems like a good possibility.
 

PCSPounder

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Apr 12, 2012
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I'm not saying any of these California cities would be a good choice for an independently owned AHL franchise. And I'm not predicting any of them get teams. What I am saying, is IF either Vancouver or Seattle looks at what is happening with the other California teams and decides "1 - other nearby AHL teams, 2 - being in the same time zone as the NHL team and 3 - playing less games, are more important factors to us than money" they could decide to spend the money to put a team in one of those locations. Likely it won't be profitable, and possibly they will have to spend extra money to upgrade facilities, buy out another tenant, pay off another AHL team whose territory they are encroaching on, pay an expensive lease, etc. But IF they care more about developing young prospects than they do about a relatively small sum of money compared to their overall operation, and they feel those factors are important, they COULD do it. Hutch said it was impossible, no cities are available. I'm just saying it is possible, under the right circumstances.

If I were the Seattle owner, I would look for a location very close to Seattle. The fact that they have more STH deposits than seats in the arena means they could potentially sell some of those people AHL tickets instead. They could even give priority to those on the NHL STH wait list to anyone who is an AHL season ticket holder as an incentive. I'm sure this is way down the list of priorities for them right now, but based on the actions of other west coast NHL teams, and the overwhelming response to their ticket drive, it seems like a good possibility.

That’s a measured, not-committal, logical response. What’s it doing on a message board?

However, I’ll dispute the premise to a degree. There are no undiscovered markets. There may be a few negotiations and flows of money that will change results, but this is the league’s business and they at least know what to recommend. The only wildcards are in the minds of David Bonderman and Jerry Bruckheimer and anyone else who buys in. Otherwise, I’m saying this is predictable.

That I’m predicting Everett just happens to fall within your parameters. I’m just willing to stick my neck out for it... and more willing to learn from the wrong guesses.
 
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Avsrule2022

"No more rats"
Apr 4, 2012
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invalid, based off what, Avs, has Colorado signed a lifetime contract with the Eagles since it was publically announced they're moving up... there's no IF..... IN THE Blues deal with San Antonio, maybe Colorado should have no affiliates at all based off what you're saying, and that's an invalid/un realistic discussion, then....

The only point I'm trying to make is this: Affiliation contracts have been broken in the past. It can and will happen again. To say that the St. Louis/San Antonio contract cannot be broken is false.
 
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210

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The only point I'm trying to make is this: Affiliation contracts have been broken in the past. It can and will happen again. To say that the St. Louis/San Antonio contract cannot be broken is false.

Absolutely. If both parties of a contract are willing to let each other walk away there's nothing stopping them from doing that.
 

Nightsquad

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Jan 25, 2014
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I'm not saying any of these California cities would be a good choice for an independently owned AHL franchise. And I'm not predicting any of them get teams. What I am saying, is IF either Vancouver or Seattle looks at what is happening with the other California teams and decides "1 - other nearby AHL teams, 2 - being in the same time zone as the NHL team and 3 - playing less games, are more important factors to us than money" they could decide to spend the money to put a team in one of those locations. Likely it won't be profitable, and possibly they will have to spend extra money to upgrade facilities, buy out another tenant, pay off another AHL team whose territory they are encroaching on, pay an expensive lease, etc. But IF they care more about developing young prospects than they do about a relatively small sum of money compared to their overall operation, and they feel those factors are important, they COULD do it. Hutch said it was impossible, no cities are available. I'm just saying it is possible, under the right circumstances.

If I were the Seattle owner, I would look for a location very close to Seattle. The fact that they have more STH deposits than seats in the arena means they could potentially sell some of those people AHL tickets instead. They could even give priority to those on the NHL STH wait list to anyone who is an AHL season ticket holder as an incentive. I'm sure this is way down the list of priorities for them right now, but based on the actions of other west coast NHL teams, and the overwhelming response to their ticket drive, it seems like a good possibility.

Absolutely, the business of minor professional hockey is a funny one. When Seattle is in I think it will be just a matter of time that Vancouver locates their franchise out west as well. An AHL team being profitable is nice but when owned by an NHL for greater development purposes often times there are other factors. The intangibles such as prospect logistics and movement is of greater value then for example lets say having your AHL franchise in small upstate NY city out east selling out its 3800 seat arena night in night out. Everything is possible, nothing is ever off the table.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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The only point I'm trying to make is this: Affiliation contracts have been broken in the past. It can and will happen again. To say that the St. Louis/San Antonio contract cannot be broken is false.

no it's not, Avs that contract is set for a while, because it is highly doubtful any market closer to St. Louis and you do realize that the Blues solely want to be an affiliate, not an O & O.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Absolutely. If both parties of a contract are willing to let each other walk away there's nothing stopping them from doing that.
MAYBE Bridgeport and the Islanders should cut ties with Worcester, and make the Railers go it alone, in perpetuity, 210, how long would the Railers exist under such a scenario?
 

210

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MAYBE Bridgeport and the Islanders should cut ties with Worcester, and make the Railers go it alone, in perpetuity, 210, how long would the Railers exist under such a scenario?

They'd be fine as there is currently only three NYI/BRI property players in the Railers lineup...but of course that has nothing to do with you being 100% incorrect about parties mutually walking away from contracts. It happens all the time.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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They'd be fine as there is currently only three NYI/BRI property players in the Railers lineup...but of course that has nothing to do with you being 100% incorrect about parties mutually walking away from contracts. It happens all the time.
uh, name the last one that never completed a contract.... you cannot count St. Louis and San Antonio
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
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Colorado and San Antonio.

wrong, Avs.... contract is expiring and Colorado made its decision as is with most contracts you intend to leave a market a clause says prior to exiting you must have another organization in line to not violate the league by law or face a penalty.... Portland had this clause in their entire existence, if there was to be a change of affiliates, that had to be agreed upon, no matter who the affiliate was.... even Spectra had to be notified when the Pirates were sold in 2015/16, the outstanding lease to break said contract with Cross had to be paid whether Florida moved with the franchise or not

Washington did that in 2005, Portland got Anaheim, when Buffalo came in three years later before buying Rochester, they honored it, Portland got Arizona, when the Coyotes deal expired, they went to Springfield, and Florida came from San Antonio, until the team was sold to Springfield... I suspect most independent teams have similar clauses, as do those owned outright by NHL clubs since NHL Clubs are not bound to negotiate an affiliate lease with an arena operator, otherwise, Arizona couldn't step in to an internal dispute between the affiliate and the arena operator even when asked because it was later determined that that piece solely was on the affiliate/tenant.
 

Avsrule2022

"No more rats"
Apr 4, 2012
683
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Longmont, CO
wrong, Avs.... contract is expiring and Colorado made its decision as is with most contracts you intend to leave a market a clause says prior to exiting you must have another organization in line to not violate the league by law or face a penalty.... Portland had this clause in their entire existence, if there was to be a change of affiliates, that had to be agreed upon, no matter who the affiliate was.... even Spectra had to be notified when the Pirates were sold in 2015/16, the outstanding lease to break said contract with Cross had to be paid whether Florida moved with the franchise or not

Washington did that in 2005, Portland got Anaheim, when Buffalo came in three years later before buying Rochester, they honored it, Portland got Arizona, when the Coyotes deal expired, they went to Springfield, and Florida came from San Antonio, until the team was sold to Springfield... I suspect most independent teams have similar clauses, as do those owned outright by NHL clubs since NHL Clubs are not bound to negotiate an affiliate lease with an arena operator, otherwise, Arizona couldn't step in to an internal dispute between the affiliate and the arena operator even when asked because it was later determined that that piece solely was on the affiliate/tenant.

Contact is not expiring. 5 year deal was signed in 2015.

Avalanche Announces New AHL Affiliation
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Contact is not expiring. 5 year deal was signed in 2015.

Avalanche Announces New AHL Affiliation

already old news isn't it.... Florida did the same thing and likely that clause I mentioned is in that contract with SA.... WHERE was Colorado before that, then, I suspect Cleveland or Hershey, because Columbus took that slot.....

Portland was a part of that transaction Avs, when Florida left the Rampage, after the Arizona deal expired and became known they were heading to Springfield, Florida never extended that deal before Colorado signed that contract because Panthers wanted an Eastern affiliate, which they have with Portland, and Manchester as a unofficial secondary, before the sale of Portland to Springfield and Arizona later buying the 2nd Springfield franchise and shifting that to Tucson a year after the Pacific was created in 2015/16. because I can remember that topic, whether it was here or in the Avalanche forum....
 
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Avsrule2022

"No more rats"
Apr 4, 2012
683
247
Longmont, CO
already old news isn't it.... Florida did the same thing and likely that clause I mentioned is in that contract with SA.... WHERE was Colorado before that, then, I suspect Cleveland or Hershey, because Columbus took that slot.....

Portland was a part of that transaction Avs, when Florida left the Rampage, after the Arizona deal expired and became known they were heading to Springfield, Florida never extended that deal before Colorado signed that contract because Panthers wanted an Eastern affiliate, which they have with Portland, and Manchester as a unofficial secondary, before the sale of Portland to Springfield and Arizona later buying the 2nd Springfield franchise and shifting that to Tucson a year after the Pacific was created in 2015/16. because I can remember that topic, whether it was here or in the Avalanche forum....

I don't really care about any of that stuff. I just want you to admit the fact that affiliation agreements can and have been broken before their term expires. But that's ok, it's not really worth arguing about.
 

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