Another expansion/relocation article with a twist

[Riptide]

The positive is that those teams ARE within 120 miles of it... followed by what bobo said before (below)... Furthermore, what "other options" are there?

No, Boston being 101 miles away, and NJ/NYC being 120 miles means that Hartford while having rivals would likely have a lot of other teams fans to contend with for market share. That's not a plus, it's a liability when assessing risk.

As for other options? Where? In the east there's Toronto2/Southern Ontario that is the BEST option if the NHL wants a no risk expansion team. And I would take QC over Hartford in a heartbeat. Their issues were never fan support (like Hartford was, and is with the AHL team).

Really? attractive because there is NO fanbase, a brand new market, no current arena at this time, and only claims of potential owners...

Portland has an arena that's NHL capable. Seattle is suppose to be building one. Both cities have very strong support for their junior teams. Don't act like hockey is some foreign concept there.

As for why... I'm still waiting for someone to show me something that makes Hartford stand out from other locations. If the NHL is trying to grow the game, they're not going to Toronto2/SO or QC. But neither are they going to Hartford - and for the same reasons they're likely not going to TO/SO/QC. While they don't have a team, those fans likely already tune in, watch games, buy merchandize and occasionally go to games. In otherwords, they're already getting some of their money.

This is why expanding to a place like Portland/Seattle is attractive. Huge untapped market (only close team is 3-5 hours away in Vancouver), large TV audience, and a large junior fan base. And that TV audience would only help the NHL when they go for their new TV deal in 7/8 years.

But it's not just me saying that Hartford is almost certainly on the outside looking in... go read this article (yes it's from 3 yrs ago).

https://northtonowhere.com/2010/11/...s-mean-anything-for-its-potential-nhl-future/

Read what you will about the numbers, but I’ve been blunt in the past and I’ll continue that here. Hartford isn’t going to get an NHL franchise any time soon, there’s just too many issues. For one we’re talking about an overall market that has has lost close to 35,000 fans in 5 years and hasn’t gotten higher than 19th in league attendance. That’s not something the NHL would probably be willing to risk a franchise on.

Look, I get it. Your feelers are hurt because Hartford had a team, and gets easily dismissed from nearly everyone as ever getting another team. Sucks that you lost your team due to what's-his-face's lies. But that was 15 yr ago... and reality is that they almost certainly will not get another chance (rightly or wrongly).

 

[Ramenbot]

Nothing has happened with potentially wayward NBA teams (other than the Kings) since, but I've always wondered if the Clippers would remain at Staples given the proper offer. Donald Sterling can't live forever.

There is zero reason for the Clippers to move out of Staples Center.

 

[Tackla]

No, Boston being 101 miles away, and NJ/NYC being 120 miles means that Hartford while having rivals would likely have a lot of other teams fans to contend with for market share. That's not a plus, it's a liability when assessing risk.

Please explain why this is a liability. These fans would come to town to buy tickets. Colorado fans are going to be much less likely to come to Portland or Seattle.

And I would take QC over Hartford in a heartbeat. Their issues were never fan support (like Hartford was, and is with the AHL team).

Let's get something straight. I think QC is the best market for a team right now, but NOBODY is going to AHL games there right now. Same goes for Seattle, Portland, Kansas City, Las Vegas and Houston. Off topic, but I think Hartford would do best to get rid of the AHL and focus on college hockey right now.

 

[Riptide]

If I'm a franchise owner, I would put it in Hartford before other US markets. They love hockey already, have money, low travel costs, no competition in the market, other teams' fans will come to my arena and buy tickets. The NHL may want to spread the game to the northwest, but as an owner I would do what's best for my bottom line.

The NHL would be accepting bids for a team in a location, and will approve/deny that bid based on a number of things. One of those things will be what their goal is for the league, game and what they believe is best for them. A owner will almost never get the chance to "choose" where they want to go. There's some potential with re-location, but again the NHL has to approve it. But if the owner did get to choose, the next two teams would be going to Toronto and Southern Ontario.

 

[Tackla]

The NHL would be accepting bids for a team in a location, and will approve/deny that bid based on a number of things. One of those things will be what their goal is for the league, game and what they believe is best for them. A owner will almost never get the chance to "choose" where they want to go. There's some potential with re-location, but again the NHL has to approve it. But if the owner did get to choose, the next two teams would be going to Toronto and Southern Ontario.

In Toronto or Southern Ontario (you want TWO more teams in that area?) the issues are the Maple Leafs and the Sabres, not the NHL telling an owner where to move teams. The last team to move was the Whalers and Peter Karmanos shopped the team to numerous cities before settling on the best offer which North Carolina gave him. The NHL's interference was nil. There are many factors which will go into expansion, but in a relocation, I have zero belief that the NHL would get in the way of a stable owner doing whatever he wanted to do.

 

[Riptide]

Please explain why this is a liability. These fans would come to town to buy tickets. Colorado fans are going to be much less likely to come to Portland or Seattle.

A, thats an assumption. B, these fans are not going to be buying Hartford merchandize. Ticket sales while a teams largest individual revenue generator, it's only about 25-40% of their overall revenue. Does that affect the teams marketability? Those are valid questions that none of us can really answer. But they're also likely seen as liabilities.

Seattle has a metro population of 3.5m. Portland 2.6m. Hartford looks to be around 1.2m (I didn't spend much time looking, correct me if I'm wrong).

Let's get something straight. I think QC is the best market for a team right now, but NOBODY is going to AHL games there right now. Same goes for Seattle, Portland, Kansas City, Las Vegas and Houston.

Except that those numbers show that less people are going to Hartford games than other teams. I wouldn't put the NHL in either of those places, and would put Houston well below Seattle and/or Portland.

Look, I don't see the NHL expanding beyond 2 teams anytime within the next couple decades (and would likely take part of a decade just to expand by 2 teams). And if I'm the NHL, I'm going into Seattle/Portland and Southern Ontario (and making them play in the west). I would be doing this for market share in the PNW, and pure money grab in SO (from the team, expansion fee and the Canadian TV deal).

 

[Riptide]

In Toronto or Southern Ontario (you want TWO more teams in that area?) the issues are the Maple Leafs and the Sabres, not the NHL telling an owner where to move teams.

The GTA has 5.5m people - of which a good percentage are hockey fans. If the NHL wanted (and the buildings were there) they could easily support 2 more teams - Toronto2 and Hamilton/SO. And they wouldn't have a single issue finding an owner for either team, or the fans to fill those buildings. The Hamilton one would impact Buffalo to a small extent, but likely not as much as one would think (the majority of STH are American). And depending on the success of the Hamilton team (aka prices/availability of tickets) Buffalo would still likely see Canadians crossing the boarder to watch games.

The last team to move was the Whalers and Peter Karmanos shopped the team to numerous cities before settling on the best offer which North Carolina gave him. The NHL's interference was nil. There are many factors which will go into expansion, but in a relocation, I have zero belief that the NHL would get in the way of a stable owner doing whatever he wanted to do.

Yes Hartford was the last team to re-locate - but that was also 15 years ago. As we've seen much more recently with Phoenix, the NHL wants to keep teams where they are. Do you think the NHL would have allowed Yang to move the Islanders to Seattle or Toronto (assuming the Leafs didn't have a say), if there was a valid option in NY? I highly doubt it. No they don't say much (or support the owner) while he's trying to get a new arena, but at the end of the day I would expect the NHL would tell the owner to offer the team up for sale to see if there was someone who wanted to keep the team in that location first, before moving the team. The NHL gains a lot more from franchise stability than they do from allowing owners to move teams because it suits them.

 

[Gardner McKay]

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Expansion+tricky+question/8975879/story.html

Sorry if this isn't the place or it belongs in another thread, please move if so. But the following quote caused my jaw to drop a little.

.

Of course, the author provides no further information as to who is saying Anaheim could move. I find this to be pretty ridiculous and pretty irresponsible to throw something like this out there.

He goes onto touch on Winnipeg, Quebec City, GTA etc. but that quote blew my mind.

Anaheim has as much of a chance of moving as any other successful team. They are going no where.

 

[gstommylee]

They are not going to expand twice if not at all in Ontario that is not growing the sport that is over crowding the market. League's job is to grow the sport and you can't grow the sport by adding more teams in areas that already have teams. So you are essentially tick off the red wings and the blue jackets cause your suggestion will force them back to the western conference.

The islanders weren't going to leave that market cause thats not what the owner wanted to do.

And to add making a 2nd TOR team that's in the eastern time zone play in one of the western conference divisions is not smart. I doubt increasing traffic costs would get support from the western conference teams.

 

[Riptide]

They are not going to expand twice if not at all in Ontario that is not growing the sport that is over crowding the market. League's job is to grow the sport and you can't grow the sport by adding more teams in areas that already have teams. So you are essentially tick off the red wings and the blue jackets cause your suggestion will force them back to the western conference.

The islanders weren't going to leave that market cause thats not what the owner wanted to do.

And to add making a 2nd TOR team that's in the eastern time zone play in one of the western conference divisions is not smart. I doubt increasing traffic costs would get support from the western conference teams.

I agree completely with the bolded. Going into Toronto/SO wouldn't be about growing the game. It's purely a money garb. They can make record expansion fee's due to the supply/demand in the market. And they would make more money from the new Canadian TV deal (or would whenever it gets re-negotiated next time). In addition to being a money grab, it's would also be about adding a team that's completely risk free (ie no chance it fails). As I've said before... where the NHL goes, will be dictated on what the NHLs goals are. If one of those goals is growing the game, then that pretty much removes Canada from the equation. And I'm alright with that.

As for ticking off Det/CBJ, not necessarily. Play the team in the central division with Chicago, Minny, Nashville and Winnipeg. Detroit did it for a decade. That wouldn't increase the travel for those teams all that much, and the TO2/SO team can suck up the additional costs. The TV schedule/timing would suck at times (when they're in the Pacific) but again, not the end of the world. Sure that travel sucks for those players... but c'est la vie.

 

[NHL Hartford]

Riptide AHL isn't supported in Hartford because it's a NY product. Keep in mind the Wolf Pack were one of the most successful AHL franchises it's first 5 years. What happened? Whalers fans got tired of supporting a NY product in their backyard. Take for example the NB Rockcats. New Britain once housed the New Britain Red Sox and attendance suffered because it turned off a lot of potential fans, once they attained a neutral affiliate both of the biggest factions of fans here Red Sox & Yankees could both mutually support the team. It's the same scenario for the AHL in Hartford except the Rangers aren't even a top 2 team in the state let alone Hartford County. Whalers and Bruins fans make up most of this market so why do we have a NY affiliate?

As far as Hartford's metro there's 2Mil within 30 minutes of the XLC and these people have the most disposable income in the nation.

 

[gstommylee]

I agree completely with the bolded. Going into Toronto/SO wouldn't be about growing the game. It's purely a money garb. They can make record expansion fee's due to the supply/demand in the market. And they would make more money from the new Canadian TV deal (or would whenever it gets re-negotiated next time). In addition to being a money grab, it's would also be about adding a team that's completely risk free (ie no chance it fails). As I've said before... where the NHL goes, will be dictated on what the NHLs goals are. If one of those goals is growing the game, then that pretty much removes Canada from the equation. And I'm alright with that.

As for ticking off Det/CBJ, not necessarily. Play the team in the central division with Chicago, Minny, Nashville and Winnipeg. Detroit did it for a decade. That wouldn't increase the travel for those teams all that much, and the TO2/SO team can suck up the additional costs. The TV schedule/timing would suck at times (when they're in the Pacific) but again, not the end of the world. Sure that travel sucks for those players... but c'est la vie.

The league is smarter than that. They will do whats best for its league and another 2 teams in Ontario isn't the solution.

Not talking about TO2/SO but the rest of the division teams would have to travel to Ontario to play a divisional game thus increasing travel costs.

My argument against another Ontario/TOR team is that it provides nothing but an instant success it does not provide anything more than what the league can get by placing a team in quebec city team in regards to the canada tv contract.

I doubt the league does not want to do a 14-18 In terms of team location. They need more western teams. They want the PNW not two more teams in Ontario.

Det/CBJ does not want to move back to the western conference.

The league better off expanding to Portland and Seattle and moving coyotes to the other western division

 

[NHL Hartford]

And we're all forgetting here one massive, massive + for Hartford that Seattle, Portland, Houston all can't bring to the table. The NHL would be only show in town. No direct sports competition in the marketplace.

 

[NHL Hartford]

Riptide again if the league expands to Seattle & Qc, Phoenix - Portland, who is the next American city to relocate to if an EC team needs to move? Pretty much only Hartford is left unless like I said you include Milwaukee or you think the NHL goes to more than 8 Canadian teams.

 

[gstommylee]

And we're all forgetting here one massive, massive + for Hartford that Seattle, Portland, Houston all can't bring to the table. The NHL would be only show in town. No direct sports competition in the marketplace.

That's not a good argument to make. Hartford can not counter what the PNW will provide to the NHL and i am not just talking about getting into Portland and Seattle market I'm talking about the entire Northwest and Alaska. Think about it national TV contract and the $$$ will bring if the league has Seattle and Portland. Nevermind instant cascadia rilvary with Vancouver.

 

[gstommylee]

Riptide again if the league expands to Seattle & Qc, Phoenix - Portland, who is the next American city to relocate to if an EC team needs to move? Pretty much only Hartford is left unless like I said you include Milwaukee or you think the NHL goes to more than 8 Canadian teams.

Hartford has a huge disadvantage no matter how its looked at.

 

[NHL Hartford]

That's not a good argument to make. Hartford can not counter what the PNW will provide to the NHL and i am not just talking about getting into Portland and Seattle market I'm talking about the entire Northwest and Alaska. Think about it national TV contract and the $$$ will bring if the league has Seattle and Portland. Nevermind instant cascadia rilvary with Vancouver.

Really rivalry with Vancouver is more appealing than Battle of New England, Habs-Whalers, Rangers-Whalers, WHALERS-CANES. Please explain that. Hartford would have a rivalry with EVERY team in the EC Seattle would have whom... Vancouver?? Portland after so many years? Hartford rivalries are already built in and that's what drives ticket sales for the NHL. And then again you have to have viewers to really make the $$, Hartford has been the top non-NHL market the past few SC's ratings wise.

 

[gstommylee]

Really rivalry with Vancouver is more appealing than Battle of New England, Habs-Whalers, Rangers-Whalers, WHALERS-CANES. Please explain that. Hartford would have a rivalry with EVERY team in the EC Seattle would have... Vancouver? Wow. Hartford rivalries are already built in. This is what the NHL is built upon.

Have you watched MLS lately? Also NHL has been watching seattle for decades and for what ever issue that maybe has prevented a team in Seattle. Quebec city has an arena being built portland has an arena ready Seattle has one in the works (EIS) and a funding adjustment to allow NHL first.

Hartford doesn't even have an approved arena plan.

Seattle and Portland provide way more than what Hartford can provide. Bigger tv market, cooperate support, wider regional/national tv coverage (Washington, Oregon, Montana, Alaska and Idaho).

 

[superdeluxe]

And we're all forgetting here one massive, massive + for Hartford that Seattle, Portland, Houston all can't bring to the table. The NHL would be only show in town. No direct sports competition in the marketplace.

Isn't New York, Boston close enough to be essentially considered sports competition?

So no season ticket holders for the Jets/Giants/Celtics/yankees/patriots?

How is the public appetite for using public tax dollars for a new arena out there?

 

[NHL Hartford]

Isn't New York, Boston close enough to be essentially considered sports competition?

So no season ticket holders for the Jets/Giants/Celtics/yankees/patriots?

How is the public appetite for using public tax dollars for a new arena out there?

You would be hard pressed to people traveling to NY or BOS to get their NHL fill it's just a little to out of the way for people in Hartford county. Myself i am a Bruins fan (been to about 2 games in last 4-5 years) but I'd drop them in a heartbeat. You're using all sports besides NHL for your arguments what you don't understand is that when it comes to hockey here it there's already a carved out niche for Whalers fans, CT never had NBA, MLB (unless you go way back) or NFL so allegiances are split between those teams surrounding us. CT yearns for a professional team and the only realistic option for this market IS NHL because the Whalers already have the majority of market share without being a team and the allegiances from people like myself with surrounding NHL teams isn't as strong as the other sports because we once had the Whale.

 

[NHL Hartford]

superdeluxe $40 Mil was just approved for the 40+ yr XLC w/o any fan fare or hoo hah at all. And also if you go back through my posts you'll see a link that references CT having 6BIL in unused bonds which will be put towards things such as arena.

Look I think Seattle deserves a team and they should get expansion but you can't sit here and tell me SEA would have better rivalries than Hartford, that simply would not be true. At all.

And when I say no direct sports competition that goes for corporate support as well. Corporations in Seattle will have 5 ML teams they need to support.

 

[Seattle Totems]

Ed Willes is the worst sports writer in Vancouver. His sources are totally manufactured. The thing that stood out to me was this business about "US teams offering 5 times the TV revenue and double or triple the corporate sponsorship compared to Winnipeg." That is simply ridiculous.

 

[gstommylee]

superdeluxe $40 Mil was just approved for the 40+ yr XLC w/o any fan fare or hoo hah at all. And also if you go back through my posts you'll see a link that references CT having 6BIL in unused bonds which will be put towards things such as arena.

Look I think Seattle deserves a team and they should get expansion but you can't sit here and tell me SEA would have better rivalries than Hartford, that simply would not be true. At all.

And when I say no direct sports competition that goes for corporate support as well. Corporations in Seattle will have 5 ML teams they need to support.

No direct competition is also a disadvantage when it comes to a local tv contract If there is a RSN in seattle and portland with NHL, MLS, NBA, MLB that will get far more money for the teams than a RSN with a single team would.

 

[Riptide]

The league is smarter than that. They will do whats best for its league and another 2 teams in Ontario isn't the solution.

I said the GTA could support 2 teams, not that I (or the NHL) would put 2 teams in there. One, maybe - with one going to Seattle/Portland.

Not talking about TO2/SO but the rest of the division teams would have to travel to Ontario to play a divisional game thus increasing travel costs.

My argument against another Ontario/TOR team is that it provides nothing but an instant success it does not provide anything more than what the league can get by placing a team in quebec city team in regards to the canada tv contract.

Besides instant success, it provides a lot of money to the NHL. Previous expansion fee's were what... 60m? Winnipeg paid 60m to relocate. An expansion fee into the GTA would be significantly more than that. And that alone would have appeal to those that would have to approve it. Additionally, going into the GTA and it's 5.5m people has to be a lot more attractive than QC from a TV point of view. That's more viewers (real or potential), and thus more money they can get for ads. If that team plays in the west, it wouldn't even overlap too many of the Leaf games.

I doubt the league does not want to do a 14-18 In terms of team location. They need more western teams. They want the PNW not two more teams in Ontario.

Det/CBJ does not want to move back to the western conference.

The league better off expanding to Portland and Seattle and moving coyotes to the other western division

As I've already said... GTA, in the central division (with Seattle or Portland in the Pacific). It's 650km from Chicago to Hamilton (aka SO), or a 50 minute flight. Sure there's some more travel for the rest of the teams in that division, but not any more so than if Colorado gets moved into the central (if Seattle and Portland received teams, Colorado would likely move to the Central).

Balances out the conferences, allows the league to grow the game (PNW), while still allowing the league to cash in in the GTA.

 

[gstommylee]

I said the GTA could support 2 teams, not that I (or the NHL) would put 2 teams in there. One, maybe - with one going to Seattle/Portland.



Besides instant success, it provides a lot of money to the NHL. Previous expansion fee's were what... 60m? Winnipeg paid 60m to relocate. An expansion fee into the GTA would be significantly more than that. And that alone would have appeal to those that would have to approve it. Additionally, going into the GTA and it's 5.5m people has to be a lot more attractive than QC from a TV point of view. That's more viewers (real or potential), and thus more money they can get for ads. If that team plays in the west, it wouldn't even overlap too many of the Leaf games.



As I've already said... GTA, in the central division (with Seattle or Portland in the Pacific). It's 650km from Chicago to Hamilton (aka SO), or a 50 minute flight. Sure there's some more travel for the rest of the teams in that division, but not any more so than if Colorado gets moved into the central (if Seattle and Portland received teams, Colorado would likely move to the Central).

Balances out the conferences, allows the league to grow the game (PNW), while still allowing the league to cash in in the GTA.

Colorado is already in the central. Its coyotes that would be moving to that division.

Balancing out the league does not mean 16 teams in west conference 16 teams eastern confernce. Its balancing out based on location. another TOR2 no matter which division is still 15-17 in terms of teams based on location. TOR is a east time zone team far more east than Detroit is.