Another 1st round loss, but I'm happy with the players and coaching

ponder

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Although we lost in the 1st round yet again, I thought the effort from the players was strong, and I thought we were a well coached team.

Re: the players, Columbus are known for their hustle/compete level, they're one of the best teams in the league in this regard, but I thought we actually outcompeted them, won the majority of puck battles throughout the series. I thought the effort level from basically every Leafs player was great, going super hard all game long, great speed and battle throughout. Nylander had a few softer than I'd like games, and you could tell Mikheyev and Johnsson (in game 5) were a bit out of rhythm coming back from injuries, but everyone else was battling like crazy.

Re: the coaching, since Keefe took over, the team has really played to their strengths. We saw what this roster looks like with poor coaching under Babs, and it was a completely different story under Keefe. Much more of an up-tempo, puck possession style, making use of all of our skill at forward. Tonnes of creativity/flow in the offensive zone. Despite weak dmen, we played decent team D. I think he did a better job, with this roster, than the majority of other NHL coaches would, which is great for a rookie coach, who is hopefully rapidly learning/improving.

Re: the result, of course it sucks to once again lose in the 1st round, I'm very disappointed and was pining for a legit playoff run. But on the bright side, this is the first time in AGES where I thought we actually outplayed the opposition in a playoff series. We got thoroughly outplayed in our last 3 appearances (Washington and the two against Boston), constantly hemmed into our own zone and bleeding defensive breakdowns, but that was not the case at all this year. We controlled the puck/play much more than Columbus, were regularly generating high quality scoring chances, and played solid defensively without many breakdowns.

We were the better team in this series. We completely dominated game 5, had nearly all of the great scoring chances, but did not get the bounces. Numerous posts, tonnes of desperation barely-saves by Korpisalo, with average luck we should have had 3+ goals. And we were terrific defensively, I thought Columbus had roughly zero high end scoring chances, both goals were flukes (Barrie deflecting the puck into his own net, and Foudy with a very flukey goal that somehow slipped through from a terrible angle). Overall, I'd say Columbus were better than us in game 1, we dominated game 2, game 3 was about even (with a crazy Columbus combeback), game 4 was about even (with a crazy Leafs comeback), and we honestly dominated game 5, just had bad puck luck.

Criticism of Dubas I think has some merit. He's drafted well (it's very early, but Sandin at 29 and Robertson at 53 look like outstanding picks so far), I personally like the Tavares signing, and I like the Muzzin trade and re-signing a lot. But on the flip side, he did a very poor job negotiating contracts with our RFAs, Barrie was clearly not the RD to target for our team, and overall he has left us invested too heavily in a small number of forwards, without the cap space to build a truly strong team around them. Personally, I've seen enough positives that I'd give him 1 more year to make us into a top team, but his leash is reasonably short.

However, I don't think Keefe or the players deserve much criticism. This was a well coached team, that played their hearts out, but still lost a playoff series to another good, well coached team. We outplayed Columbus a bit IMO, but had worse puck luck, and lost. I get the emotional reaction of wanting to blame everyone, and tear the team apart, but I think it's misguided. Look at the last 2 cup winners, the Blues and Caps. These teams went through year after year of disappointing playoff exits, and in many of them they played well, but didn't have the puck luck, and lost. But they kept the team together, always just tweaking and staying competitive vs. blowing things up, and eventually everything came together for them in a single run, and they won the cup. Our best chance to win a cup is similar. Moderate changes to the team every offseason, but keep building around our stars, and year-after-year field good teams that have a chance, with some good luck that basically every cup winner needs, to go all the way.
 
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ponder

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technically, the Leafs would have to qualify for the playoffs to lose in the first round so things are worse than they appear..............
Sure, but we were highly likely to actually make the playoffs this year, sans-COVID, and this was a playoff series. We did face an easier opponent than we otherwise would have, likely would have ended up 3rd in the division and faced 2nd place Tampa, but it was still a playoff series against a good team. FWIW, it does count as a playoff series in the record books.

Watching this team under Keefe, both in the regular season and playoffs, I thought we were a clear step ahead of any of the Babs-coached Matthews/Marner/Nylander-era teams. Wish we could have gone deeper in the playoffs, but IMO this year was still a small step forward, not a regression.
 

Ciao

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A bit too rosy for my liking.

I like the coach but he needs to do better. This team needs to be coached into playing a consistent team game. They aren't there yet.

Some of the roster is good. I wouldn't want wholesale changes, but changes do need to be made.

I put Dubas in the same category as the coach and players: worth keeping, but in need of improvement.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and it takes time to build a winner. You don't just throw a bunch of players on the ice and expect the sun, the moon and the stars. The Leafs have to continue to develop their personnel -- players, coaches and management all included.
 

Stephen

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I think we need a full year or more of Keefe to understand what kind of team he's trying to build, but it feels like he's staked out a position as the anti-Babcock, and I'm not sure that's enough...

-Keefe has mixed up the Matthews-Nylander-Tavares-Marner Big 4 in different permutations and tried the Big Line and fed them big minutes. This was something Babcock always resisted because he wanted more scoring lines, balance, etc. Feels like a move that makes message boards happy but worked to mixed success.

-Someone on the Babcock/Keefe staff decided to roll with the drop pass, half speed breakout. This strategy clogs the neutral zone and makes zone entries more chaotic and kills the Leafs element of speed. Why does this keep getting used as a the default PP play?

-Bump back, puck possession play. This strategy is a thing of beauty when you have Lidstrom and Rafalski to be flawless pressure outlets who can regroup and reload for a transition. But in the hands of Dermott, Ceci, Barrie, Marincin, etc. it's not a great look. Why is this not utilized more judiciously when the right personnel are on the ice, instead of seeing Engvall throw it back to Marincin only to get overrun by a forecheck?

-Keefe seems to coach to the star players but doesn't seem to really utilize his other players very well. Kapanen, Kerfoot and Johnsson looked lost this year. Are they being utilized properly?

-Keefe seems to tinker quite a bit. The Johnsson/Robertson swap out is overstated but still a valid question, especially when they spent so much time testing out Robertson in the first place in camp. If it's about protecting a player in an elimination, why did they make such a fuss about auditioning him in the first place and putting him in a role to be a contributor? Also, activating Johnsson in a game like that isn't exactly fair to the player.

-Curious comments about the 3-0 game. Seemed very strange that he could say his team had no purpose and plan when they were actually playing okay and it's his job to provide the purpose and plan. Why did he call a timeout in OT? Why not at 3-1? 3-2? 3-3?
 

ponder

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A bit too rosy for my liking.

I like the coach but he needs to do better. This team needs to be coached into playing a consistent team game. They aren't there yet.

Some of the roster is good. I wouldn't want wholesale changes, but changes do need to be made.

I put Dubas in the same category as the coach and players: worth keeping, but in need of improvement.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and it takes time to build a winner. You don't just throw a bunch of players on the ice and expect the sun, the moon and the stars. The Leafs have to continue to develop their personnel -- players, coaches and management all included.
I do agree with all of this. Including I wouldn't want wholesale changes, but changes do need to be made. The roster needs more balance, and that may mean a tough move, like moving Marner or Nylander. COVID has made our cap situation worse than ever, a flat cap is highly unexpected and also pretty terrible for us, makes a Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Nylander core somewhat unworkable going forward. When I said I'm happy with the players, I meant that I'm happy with their effort, not that the roster is optimal/shouldn't see some moderate changes.

Re: Keefe and Dubas, I think Keefe is more of a clear "actually did quite well, definitely keep him", while Dubas is a bit "mix of good and bad, worth keeping for now but on decently thin ice."
 
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Mickey Marner

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I think we generally carried the play against Columbus, but we're well past the happy to be here stage and require results. Dermott and Rielly are also the only defensemen that look comfortable playing that CCCP style hockey.
 

rumman

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Sure, but we were highly likely to actually make the playoffs this year, sans-COVID, and this was a playoff series. We did face an easier opponent than we otherwise would have, likely would have ended up 3rd in the division and faced 2nd place Tampa, but it was still a playoff series against a good team. FWIW, it does count as a playoff series in the record books.

Watching this team under Keefe, both in the regular season and playoffs, I thought we were a clear step ahead of any of the Babs-coached Matthews/Marner/Nylander-era teams. Wish we could have gone deeper in the playoffs, but IMO this year was still a small step forward, not a regression.
if's and but's my friend, if's and but's. The cap was supposed to go up too, and I was ripped a new one for suggesting it might not. Now no one saw a pandemic on the horizon, but the moral of the story is "don't count your chickens before they've hatched..................."
 
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NightTrain1

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Im sorry but no, just no. I'm not going to sit here and scream doom and tear it down. Frankly it's August 10th, the season ended 5 month ago and I just don't care at this point.

But the Leafs played 5 games series to QUALIFY for the playoffs and lost. Not only did they lose, but the Leafs with the highest paid offensive forward group in the league were SHUT OUT 2 games including the second elimination game. Which brings up the first elimination game, we can all daydream about the comeback, but let's be honest because that game was a shutout as well until 4 min left.
 
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ponder

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if's and but's my friend, if's and but's. The cap was supposed to go up too, and I was ripped a new one for suggesting it might not. Now no one saw a pandemic on the horizon, but the moral of the story is "don't count your chickens before they've hatched..................."
I'm the least positive about Dubas, he's made some good moves but also some significant mistakes. Now, the flat cap is really very hard to predict. Since it was introduced 15 years ago, it has gone up literally every single year, other than the year it was knocked back due to CBA negotiations (2012/13 lockout). A rising cap was a reasonable assumption, but now that we have a flat cap for the next few years due to COVID, I do think Dubas will likely need to deal one of Marner/Nylander (Matthews is our franchise player, and JT has an NMC). Which sucks, but if he gets the right return it could be OK.
 

ponder

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I think we generally carried the play against Columbus, but we're well past the happy to be here stage and require results. Dermott and Rielly are also the only defensemen that look comfortable playing that CCCP style hockey.
I definitely want results too. But luck is a significant part of hockey. We didn't dominate Columbus, but I do think we outplayed them a bit, and got a bit unlucky. I really think that the difference between, say, the 2017/18 cup winning Caps, and 2018/19 out-in-the-frst-round Caps was a bit of luck.

Curious, where do you stand on each of these individual points:
  • My opinion that Keefe did well with the team, our team played better under him than they would have for the majority of NHL coaches
  • My opinion that the effort level was strong from the players in the Columbus series, they competed hard
  • My opinion that Dubas is a mixed bag, has made good and bad moves. That he deserves another season, but is on reasonably thin ice
 

The Iceman

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Sep 22, 2007
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technically, the Leafs would have to qualify for the playoffs to lose in the first round so things are worse than they appear..............

Realistically they were going to make the playoffs sans COVID.

With the team lacking a little fire i would love the team to sign a tough SOB assistant coach that puts a little fear into the day to day activities. Maybe that is an old fashioned view but a Tim Hunter, Scott Stevens, Sutter Brother.
Or a past successful respected head coach looking to stay coaching. No salary cap on coaches. Hitchcock, Boudreau, Marc Crawford, Guy Boucher
 

moon111

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My hope is that Keefe, being Dubas's man, can communicate in a way where they co-operate with each other rather then like Babcock who sometimes seemed hell-bend on making decisions just to prove a point that Dubas's decisions were wrong.
 
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Stephen

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My hope is that Keefe, being Dubas's man, can communicate in a way where they co-operate with each other rather then like Babcock who sometimes seemed hell-bend on making decisions just to prove a point that Dubas's decisions were wrong.

If we ignore what a bad guy he was rumored to be, I keep coming back to the idea that Babcock's fully realized version of the Leafs is probably a more successful one than the one imagined by Dubas and Keefe.
 

Stephen

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I can’t get on board with “the players played their hearts out” take.

My exhaustive list of players who clearly met or exceeded playoff expectations:
1. Matthews

That’s it. End of list.

Agreed. Matthews was excellent. If the rest of the guys spent some time watching Carolina and Vegas games, they'd quickly realize that they did not in fact play their hearts out. Or maybe they have less heart to give than other teams.
 

Gallagbi

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I think we generally carried the play against Columbus, but we're well past the happy to be here stage and require results. Dermott and Rielly are also the only defensemen that look comfortable playing that CCCP style hockey.
Dermott was absolutely lost once he faced real competition
 
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The Podium

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If we ignore what a bad guy he was rumored to be, I keep coming back to the idea that Babcock's fully realized version of the Leafs is probably a more successful one than the one imagined by Dubas and Keefe.

That is just a bad take. Regardless of what Babcock couldve done with his ideal roster, he didnt have it. In fact, Babcocks ideal roster isnt realistic in todays NHL. You arent going to have an early 2000s Red Wings roster or mid 2010s team Canada with the cap. You coach with what you have. Yes Babcock would be better with Columbus' roster much like Torts, but being a good coach means you adapt to what you have not force what you want.

Also, you are under the impression that this iteration of the Leafs is Dubas' fully realized version, which absolutely isnt the case.
 

Mickey Marner

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I definitely want results too. But luck is a significant part of hockey. We didn't dominate Columbus, but I do think we outplayed them a bit, and got a bit unlucky. I really think that the difference between, say, the 2017/18 cup winning Caps, and 2018/19 out-in-the-frst-round Caps was a bit of luck.

Curious, where do you stand on each of these individual points:
  • My opinion that Keefe did well with the team, our team played better under him than they would have for the majority of NHL coaches
  • My opinion that the effort level was strong from the players in the Columbus series, they competed hard
  • My opinion that Dubas is a mixed bag, has made good and bad moves. That he deserves another season, but is on reasonably thin ice

  1. I think they generally played well and they would've played well under another coach that favours pace over structure, like Boudreau or Gallant. Babcock was far too rigid and obviously lost the room.
  2. I agree that they competed as a whole, but there was too much perimeter play and not enough attacking the house. Those three goals at the end of game 4 were all the result of passes to the slot and crashing the net. We didn't compete enough for the high real-estate ice when Matthews or the 4th line were off the ice.
  3. I think Shanahan should be fired. 6 years on the job with zero series wins is unacceptable with what's at his disposal. The new president can evaluate Dubas and decide for themself.
 

The Podium

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  1. I think they generally played well and they would've played well under another coach that favours pace over structure, like Boudreau or Gallant. Babcock was far too rigid and obviously lost the room.
  2. I agree that they competed as a whole, but there was too much perimeter play and not enough attacking the house. Those three goals at the end of game 4 were all the result of passes to the slot and crashing the net. We didn't compete enough for the high real-estate ice when Matthews or the 4th line were off the ice.

Agreed with both of these points
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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That is just a bad take. Regardless of what Babcock couldve done with his ideal roster, he didnt have it. In fact, Babcocks ideal roster isnt realistic in todays NHL. You arent going to have an early 2000s Red Wings roster or mid 2010s team Canada with the cap. You coach with what you have. Yes Babcock would be better with Columbus' roster much like Torts, but being a good coach means you adapt to what you have not force what you want.

Also, you are under the impression that this iteration of the Leafs is Dubas' fully realized version, which absolutely isnt the case.

Babcock's game plan is actual quite conventional. Balanced scoring lines, pairing of grinders with skill guys, heavy forecheck, playing with pace, a strong blueline as the general backbone of the team to puck possession bump back to, stretch pass as the mechanism for a quick transition. A lot of teams generally play that way, especially in the West.
 

Mickey Marner

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Dermott was absolutely lost once he faced real competition

He still plays too rambunctious, but he's never been paired with a quality vet in his entire career and our defensive development is an absolute joke. He has the skating, puck skills and ability to pinch and hold the line that we ask of our defense though. Holl was lost too once he no longer had Muzzin barking orders at him letting know where to be. If we ever bothered to provide Dermott with guidance, he'd have a considerably better grasp of the position.
 
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