TBN: Annual Season Ticket Increase Hit Piece

[joshjull]

Well I'm on the wait list and haven't gotten the call yet. And I don't live in WNY.

But the reason is because buying and reselling season tickets shouldn't be a money making scheme. It should be an option for dedicated fans that honestly want to go to 30-40 games a year. I have no sympathy for a STH complaining about not being able to 'unload games.' That's not the purpose, IMO.

What a crock. Even with splitting the games with my dad and brother (I get a toal of 13 or 14 games) I still have conflicts that come up. Three of my kids have jobs and I coach hockey. Its close to impossible to not run into conflicts where at least two family member aren't free to go to the game. It got worse this year with the afternoon games due to coaching and my kids working many Sat/Sun afternoons. I guess I'm not a dedicated fan since I want to at least get back my money back if I can't make a game.

You'd be hard pressed to find many STH that make 30+ games a year. Its too expensive.

I'd rather have less STH generally once they're good, but I know that's not a realistic option. Also, an increase in STH price can help keep down the price of single game tickets, which I'm much more concern about.

What on earth are basing this on? The cheaper the season tickets the cheaper the STH will sell their tickets to unload them if they can't make a game. The more the ST price the more a STH will want to charge to get their money back. And single game seats are based on the variable pricing system. So with more of them for sale it means less ST on Stubhub at the lower ST price. I have no idea why you think higher season ticket prices with less STHs will lead to lower single game tickets.

 

[SackTastic]

Sure, it's legit to WANT to be able to sell your tickets and get your ST price back. But that really doesn't have anything to do with the Sabres at all, does it? They don't control the secondary market. If you have a ticket you can't sell, and don't use, that has nothing to do with the Sabres AT ALL.

Yes, there are some valid criticisms in there.

- Game day presentation : Could always be better, but fans will never be happy. They complain that it's a library in there, but then complain when they try to play louder, more aggressive music to pump the crowd up. They can't seem to win there.

- Theme nights : Sure, not a bad idea.

- Fan Advantage program : Agreed. Basically worthless.

- Soap / Paper Towels : I'm not going to say it doesn't happen, but honestly can't say I've ever used the restroom there and saw either of those empty. Maybe it is a thing elsewhere.

I don't wan't fans to just 'shut up and sit down'. But I want to know if people are actually telling the Sabres these things, or just pissing and moaning to the News. Maybe a reporter could ask about that.

Last year, I got invited to a STH meeting before a March game with Ted Black. It was basically 'yes, we know we suck right now. we appreciate your business. this is what we're trying to do, and how we're trying to do it.' There was about 30 of us there. Do you know how many people brought up arena issues, feedback like we're talking about?

Zero.

Ted Black stood there and ASKED for that stuff. He commented on hockey matters where it fit and said what he could, but he SPECIFICALLY ASKED for other non-on the ice feedback, and got NOTHING. Yes, sample size, but I think it's probably representative. It's much easier to just piss and moan on Twitter or via email then actually go to the team and say something.

On the money thing, yeah, they're more expensive than they were. But the revenue sharing thing is not trivial. Under the previous CBA, a full share of the rev sharing pot was around $10M+ a year. I haven't read the new formula, but it's been reported repeatedly that it's larger. So let's do the math on this for a minute.

TBN said the overall increase is about 4% across the board. Let's say that's about $62.50 per seat for the year, 16,000 tickets, $1M total.

So let's say they held the line on ticket prices, and they dropped below the revenue sharing line. We know the $ amount there is more than $10M, but we'll use that number for now.

That's $11M LESS coming in if they don't keep pace with the rest of the league. Roughly what, 15% of the salary cap? And that's us using a conservative revenue sharing number.

It's significant dollars at play, and too many people poo poo it.

 

[SackTastic]

What a crock. Even with splitting the games with my dad and brother (I get a toal of 13 or 14 games) I still have conflicts that come up. Three of my kids have jobs and I coach hockey. Its close to impossible to not run into conflicts where at least two family member aren't free to go to the game. It got worse this year with the afternoon games due to coaching and my kids working many Sat/Sun afternoons. I guess I'm not a dedicated fan since I want to at least get back my money back if I can't make a game.

You'd be hard pressed to find many STH that make 30+ games a year. Its too expensive.

I disagree with the 'should be for dedicated fans' comment.

I have no problem with people TRYING to sell the games they can't attend. 41 games is a lot for anyone. Heck, I'm single with no kids and it's hard for me. Wanting to get your money back is fine. Being pissed at the Sabres if you don't isn't though.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

If you're a season ticket holder and you consider your purchase an investment to try and make a profit, I think you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Just my opinion though. I know a lot of people who had season tickets post lockout made enough off sales to break even or turn a profit for a couple years, but that was an anomaly. Might happen again, but who knows.

It is WAY easier now to get tickets, even with the large STH base. Once they tied the online system in directly with Stubhub, you saw the number of listings skyrocket, and it will continue to be like that.

For those that don't know about this, I'll explain. I can log in to my STH portal, select tickets for a game, and in about 4 clicks have them listed on Stubhub. Done. Don't have to physically have my tickets in front of me, deal with bar codes, etc, like you used to.

Since that integration, there have been hundreds of tickets for sale for every game I've ever looked, and everyone is undercutting because they want THEIR seats to sell. It's extremely easy now, and that large supply will keep prices depressed. Lots of folks (myself included) list tickets day of just in case they can't go. There's always inventory.

I want to break even on my tickets. Stubhub charges make it almost impossible to break even right now. You need to charge 10% more to break even.

The fees will remain but once Sabres get better, demand will skyrocket and prices.

I apologize to no one if I make a little money to cover my losses last three years.

The reason this rink has sold out or been close to it, even with crap on the ice, is STH. Sabres know this and are loyal to this fan base. As they should be.

The singe ticket buyers can't be counted on during difficult times.

 

[SackTastic]

I apologize to no one if I make a little money to cover my losses last three years.

Nor should you, but are you talking about tickets to a sporting event or investments?

 

[Clock]

I really wanted to keep my STs, but consistently selling the ones we didn't attend for 70% (or less) than what WE paid for them was too harsh. Might have just been our location. Who knows. But monitoring things on Stubhub, on the surface it seems that if the conditions remain the same that we'd be suckers to keep them and are better off paying less than ST cost on StubHub.

It's a perfect storm with both the team and the CAD bottoming out.

That said, the media playing off the hikes as if it's some huge surprise or insult is ridiculous.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Nor should you, but are you talking about tickets to a sporting event or investments?

I'm talking about the fact I paid about $70 for tickets and have been selling them for $50 some nights, even as low as $15 some times.

Where have all these fans who go to single games been the last three years because none of them want my tickets.

I have no interest in "making money" on my tickets but I'm little sick of subsidizing and I'd like to be break even on them.

I'd hardly call this a greedy approach. I'm no broker. If I actually lived in Buffalo, I'd probably be at 30 games a year.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Since that integration, there have been hundreds of tickets for sale for every game I've ever looked, and everyone is undercutting because they want THEIR seats to sell. It's extremely easy now, and that large supply will keep prices depressed. Lots of folks (myself included) list tickets day of just in case they can't go. There's always inventory.

Here's the thing about liquidity in a market. In a falling market, prices drop fast and in rising market liquidity helps prices jump rapidly. Stubhub is creating liquidity.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I really wanted to keep my STs, but consistently selling the ones we didn't attend for 70% (or less) than what WE paid for them was too harsh. Might have just been our location. Who knows. But monitoring things on Stubhub, on the surface it seems that if the conditions remain the same that we'd be suckers to keep them and are better off paying less than ST cost on StubHub.

It's a perfect storm with both the team and the CAD bottoming out.

That said, the media playing off the hikes as if it's some huge surprise or insult is ridiculous.

I think you're making a mistake. If this team is a playoff team in in 2016-2017, you can break even. I did a little better this year. Got smarter. The key was selling early to Habs and Leafs fans, before their teams became crap. Habs made me a ton of money.

 

[Clock]

I think you're making a mistake. If this team is a playoff team in in 2016-2017, you can break even. I did a little better this year. Got smarter. The key was selling early to Habs and Leafs fans, before their teams became crap. Habs made me a ton of money.

This absolutely would've helped. My concern is that going into the future with the CAD still in the crapper, even if their teams get much better very quickly it wouldn't offset the Tuesday night Panthers games, etc.

Again, not looking to make money, just don't want to completely eat **** for the games we don't go to.

 

[SackTastic]

I'm talking about the fact I paid about $70 for tickets and have been selling them for $50 some nights, even as low as $15 some times.

Where have all these fans who go to single games been the last three years because none of them want my tickets.

I have no interest in "making money" on my tickets but I'm little sick of subsidizing and I'd like to be break even on them.

I'd hardly call this a greedy approach. I'm no broker. If I actually lived in Buffalo, I'd probably be at 30 games a year.

No, and I kinda sounded *******, so I apologize.

I just look at my tickets differently. I just paid my invoice for next year, (side note, it's a great way to abuse credit card rewards bonuses for 'spend X amount in 3 months' :p ) and to me it's sunk cost. When next season starts, I'll do what I already do. Go to games I can go, give some to people who ask, and list the others. Anything I sell along the way is what it is, be it a Stubhub listing, or someone in the office. I just don't plan out a strategy to maximize my returns on those.

I guess I don't see it as subsidizing anything either. Right now, I enjoy having them, and they fit in my lifestyle and budget. If at some point down the road that changes, I'll make a choice. To me, it has nothing to do with what any other fan does or doesn't decide to do with their seats or desires for tickets.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

No, and I kinda sounded *******, so I apologize.

I just look at my tickets differently. I just paid my invoice for next year, (side note, it's a great way to abuse credit card rewards bonuses for 'spend X amount in 3 months' :p ) and to me it's sunk cost. When next season starts, I'll do what I already do. Go to games I can go, give some to people who ask, and list the others. Anything I sell along the way is what it is, be it a Stubhub listing, or someone in the office. I just don't plan out a strategy to maximize my returns on those.

I guess I don't see it as subsidizing anything either. Right now, I enjoy having them, and they fit in my lifestyle and budget. If at some point down the road that changes, I'll make a choice. To me, it has nothing to do with what any other fan does or doesn't decide to do with their seats or desires for tickets.

I accept your apology.

I have a household budget and certain amount of money available from it for sporting events. I try to stay close to it. I want my budget to goes towards me going to games not subsidizing others. Basically, my goal is to attend about 10 games a year and I budget about US$1,000 for that, taking into account I take my kids to some games (I share season tickets with friend and we go to about seven games a year together.) In total I buy about 13-14 tickets at $70 each and sell remaining tickets my friend doesn't want. Goal to break even on what i sell.

 

[Clock]

I accept your apology.

I have a household budget and certain amount of money available from it for sporting events. I try to stay close to it. I want my budget to goes towards me going to games not subsidizing others. Basically, my goal is to attend about 10 games a year and I budget about US$1,000 for that, taking into account I take my kids to some games (I share season tickets with friend and we go to about seven games a year together.) In total I buy about 13-14 tickets at $70 each and sell remaining tickets my friend doesn't want. Goal to break even on what i sell.

Pretty funny, Hogtown - your use case is practically identical to mine. 10ish games, take the kids, etc. The subsidization bit is right on. With the market being what it is, I feel like it's better to start with nothing and buy individually (by a lot) rather than start with everything and contend with selling everything you don't use.

I hope things bounce back eventually.

 

[vcv]

Honest question -- if you want to only go to 10ish games (or anyone else in that range), why not go with a mini-pack?

I know it's more expensive, but at least you don't have to worry about selling 30ish games.

 

[Clock]

Honest question -- if you want to only go to 10ish games (or anyone else in that range), why not go with a mini-pack?

I know it's more expensive, but at least you don't have to worry about selling 30ish games.

For us it was about having the tickets for the long term and being able to scale up or down however much we wanted, be able to give them out as gifts, that sort of thing. I didn't mind the overhead of selling them.

It'll probably turn out to be a terrible mistake to not renew.

 

[cardiffgiant]

For us it was about having the tickets for the long term and being able to scale up or down however much we wanted, be able to give them out as gifts, that sort of thing. I didn't mind the overhead of selling them.

It'll probably turn out to be a terrible mistake to not renew.

Same here. I used to travel a lot, without much control over my calendar. I wanted to go to about 10-20 games a year, but would never be able to nail down dates months in advance. Getting ST's and selling the games I couldn't go to gave me a lot of flexibility.

I'll tell you what. Stubhubs fees are pretty outrageous. They make about 30% for each ticket. I'd rather see an article about that.

I try to sell my on craigs list to avoid the stubhub fees, if I have the patience for countless texts from people asking "still have the tix"

 

[vcv]

For us it was about having the tickets for the long term and being able to scale up or down however much we wanted, be able to give them out as gifts, that sort of thing. I didn't mind the overhead of selling them.

It'll probably turn out to be a terrible mistake to not renew.

So the thing that the STs offer than a mini-pack does not for you is being able to give them as gifts at a discounted price?

I'd probably feel the same way as you in your situation. But as an outsider, I feel like it's a risk you take by getting the season tickets, committing to all 41 games. You assume the risk of not being able to go to all the games (even more so knowing and planning to not go to all of the games or even near a majority). Since the team has been bad, you have not reaped the rewards of your risk.

It sucks, but it isn't the Sabres fault (not that I think you specifically are blaming them). There will likely be a day, maybe soon, when you can choose to only go to 10-20ish games and sell the rest for a healthy amount. You will reap the rewards of that risk you chose. You will be going to 10-20 games for what others will have to pay to go to 4, 5, 6 games. I don't think you will hear complaints when that happens.

 

[cardiffgiant]

So the thing that the STs offer than a mini-pack does not for you is being able to give them as gifts at a discounted price?

I'd probably feel the same way as you in your situation. But as an outsider, I feel like it's a risk you take by getting the season tickets, committing to all 41 games. You assume the risk of not being able to go to all the games (even more so knowing and planning to not go to all of the games or even near a majority). Since the team has been bad, you have not reaped the rewards of your risk.

It sucks, but it isn't the Sabres fault (not that I think you specifically are blaming them). There will likely be a day, maybe soon, when you can choose to only go to 10-20ish games and sell the rest for a healthy amount. You will reap the rewards of that risk you chose. You will be going to 10-20 games for what others will have to pay to go to 4, 5, 6 games. I don't think you will hear complaints when that happens.

While I agree with the concept of improving through the draft, understand that hte Sabres only resported to it after making a run at UFA's, and don't wnat to open up a tank/anti tank debate.... let's not forget that that the front office inentionally iced a losing roster for a couple of years, while simultaneously increasing the cap on the number of ST's, and increasing ticket prices.

There is a reason that no one has wanted to buy these tickets for the last couple of years. Demand is certain to go up now. It'll be interesting to see how much, but if you've hung in there for this long... you aren't going anywhere now

 

[Clock]

So the thing that the STs offer than a mini-pack does not for you is being able to give them as gifts at a discounted price?

No, I'd say having the flexibility of going to however many games we wanted to combined with the idea of having "our seats," in our family, for years was what made things enticing over the mini pack.

I'd probably feel the same way as you in your situation. But as an outsider, I feel like it's a risk you take by getting the season tickets, committing to all 41 games. You assume the risk of not being able to go to all the games (even more so knowing and planning to not go to all of the games or even near a majority). Since the team has been bad, you have not reaped the rewards of your risk.

It sucks, but it isn't the Sabres fault (not that I think you specifically are blaming them). There will likely be a day, maybe soon, when you can choose to only go to 10-20ish games and sell the rest for a healthy amount. You will reap the rewards of that risk you chose. You will be going to 10-20 games for what others will have to pay to go to 4, 5, 6 games. I don't think you will hear complaints when that happens.

For sure, no disagreement here. It's not a blame game, I just wish it had worked out a little better when it came to selling them. I've never seen the value drop out like that. More than anything I'm just bummed it didn't work out well for how we wanted to use those tickets. Live and learn.