Recalled/Assigned: Andrey Pedan re-assisnged to Utica (Jan 12)

DadBod

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He's a young defenseman who's paired with Bartowski which is basically a death kiss.

He needs to work on some skating issues, mainly mobility and pivoting. Once he works on that you have a decent depth defenseman with a big shot. Sounds good to me.
 

MS

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Yeah, it's easy to be negative. You're certain to be right most of the time.

I didn't say that MS was down on every prospect, I pointed out that being negative about prospects in general is siding with the odds. You seem to agree with that… so I'm not sure what the problem is?

Exactly ... I'm not sure what the problem is.

I'm not blanket negative. But I am realistic, and understand that probably 80% of 'good prospects' don't amount to jack in the NHL. So, absolutely, my take on probably 80% of prospects is going to be somewhat negative, and I'm going to save my praise for the guys I feel look to be in that 20% of guys that I feel are projecting to stick at the next level.

If you know only 20% of guys make it, and you're spewing rainbows about the development of 90% of the guys in the system, you look like a clueless idiot wearing rose-coloured glasses who has no idea what they're talking about.

MS had this to say about Pedan. Rather than argue, I called my shot. Sure, I might argue that some guys are better than they're being given credit for but I'm not fanboying it up, pimping every guy. I like the prospect so I stuck my neck out. Against the odds.

You actually posted an opinion with some reasoning much later (which I respect). Your initial post was just a snide remark with no reasoning or logic whatsoever.
 

MS

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And just to elaborate on Pedan ...

To me, I look at scouting defenders and the skills your looking for as an inverted pyramid, where you have one foundational skill - hockey sense/IQ which normally correlates with both positional sense and quality puck distribution on the breakout - at the base, followed by two more foundational skills (mobility/footwork and size/reach) just above it.

Above those are a bunch of 'fluff' skills which are great if the player has the foundational skills in place - hitting, shot, fighting, forward skating and puck-rushing ability, PP QB skills, etc. - that form the 'top' of the inverted pyramid. However, if the defender doesn't have the foundational skills, these skills (which normally catch the eye of the casual fan the quickest) are pretty much useless. Jack Johnson is the primary example - skates like the wind, hits like a truck, cannon of a shot ... can't process the game quickly in his own zone so he's completely useless. And we see this with Sbisa here as well.

To me, when looking at defenders, you have to scout from the bottom up in terms of this pyramid. My frustration on Benning is that for every single defender he's targeted, he seems to be captivated by fluff skills and be scouting from the top down. In other words, I don't think he has a ****ing clue how to scout or project NHL defenders.

In Pedan's case, I see a guy with huge deficiencies both in terms of his hockey IQ/game processing and in terms of his footwork/skating. I can't envision this player succeeding in the NHL when he's that fundamentally flawed, no matter how big/tough/somewhat puck skilled he is.
 

PTmbp13

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Jan 21, 2007
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He's a young defenseman who's paired with Bartowski which is basically a death kiss.

He needs to work on some skating issues, mainly mobility and pivoting. Once he works on that you have a decent depth defenseman with a big shot. Sounds good to me.
LOL yeah true, but can you suck as much as he did last night, playiong in the NHL even though it is on the worst team in the league. He and Bart sucked to a new level. Hasnt seen a d man so slow since... i dont know yet. veeery slow
 

Scurr

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Jun 25, 2009
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Exactly ... I'm not sure what the problem is.

I'm not blanket negative. But I am realistic, and understand that probably 80% of 'good prospects' don't amount to jack in the NHL. So, absolutely, my take on probably 80% of prospects is going to be somewhat negative, and I'm going to save my praise for the guys I feel look to be in that 20% of guys that I feel are projecting to stick at the next level.

If you know only 20% of guys make it, and you're spewing rainbows about the development of 90% of the guys in the system, you look like a clueless idiot wearing rose-coloured glasses who has no idea what they're talking about.



You actually posted an opinion with some reasoning much later (which I respect). Your initial post was just a snide remark with no reasoning or logic whatsoever.

That wasn't how I meant it. You mentioned how many guys you've been right about not amounting to anything, my only point was that a reputation for talent evaluation isn't made on saying who won't make it, that's the easy part. The hard part is identifying who will make it. I don't keep score but I would bet that you've been pretty good in that regard. I didn't mean otherwise.

I'm certainly aware of the odds being stacked against prospects when making evaluations even though I tend not to refer to them as garbage or whatever.

And just to elaborate on Pedan ...

To me, I look at scouting defenders and the skills your looking for as an inverted pyramid, where you have one foundational skill - hockey sense/IQ which normally correlates with both positional sense and quality puck distribution on the breakout - at the base, followed by two more foundational skills (mobility/footwork and size/reach) just above it.

Above those are a bunch of 'fluff' skills which are great if the player has the foundational skills in place - hitting, shot, fighting, forward skating and puck-rushing ability, PP QB skills, etc. - that form the 'top' of the inverted pyramid. However, if the defender doesn't have the foundational skills, these skills (which normally catch the eye of the casual fan the quickest) are pretty much useless. Jack Johnson is the primary example - skates like the wind, hits like a truck, cannon of a shot ... can't process the game quickly in his own zone so he's completely useless. And we see this with Sbisa here as well.

To me, when looking at defenders, you have to scout from the bottom up in terms of this pyramid. My frustration on Benning is that for every single defender he's targeted, he seems to be captivated by fluff skills and be scouting from the top down. In other words, I don't think he has a ****ing clue how to scout or project NHL defenders.

In Pedan's case, I see a guy with huge deficiencies both in terms of his hockey IQ/game processing and in terms of his footwork/skating. I can't envision this player succeeding in the NHL when he's that fundamentally flawed, no matter how big/tough/somewhat puck skilled he is.

I think that's fair and a really good way to look at defenders. My defence for Pedan would be his lack of experience. Like I said, he's played less than 130 AHL and NHL games over the last 3 seasons. I also think he has shown some better hockey IQ in the AHL and NHL than his most recent play. IMO his problem is more with consistency than it is a real IQ problem. To me, he's more Edler than Sbisa.

As far as mobility goes, I think these huge guys can get away with a little less because of their length and reach. Also, Pedan looks better in this regard when he's playing better positionally, that tends to make any problems with mobility look worse.
 
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ProstheticConscience

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I think that's fair and a really good way to look at defenders. My defence for Pedan would be his lack of experience. Like I said, he's played less than 130 AHL and NHL games over the last 3 seasons. I also think he has shown some better hockey IQ in the AHL and NHL than his most recent play. IMO his problem is more with consistency than it is a real IQ problem. To me, he's more Edler than Sbisa.

As far as mobility goes, I think these huge guys can get away with a little less because of their length and reach. Also, Pedan looks better in this regard when he's playing better positionally, that tends to make any problems with mobility look worse.

I'm also buoyed by the fact that some of the reputable Utica guys have said he's got a very good record of learning from his mistakes and adapting. So I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt during this team-wide plummet to the bottom. Next season will be far more telling after an offseason of work.

As for mobility, the guy did win fastest skater and hardest shot as the skills competition this year. Sure, his pivoting needs work, but flat-out speed is something he already does have. Not worried about him in that regard.
 

Scurr

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I'm also buoyed by the fact that some of the reputable Utica guys have said he's got a very good record of learning from his mistakes and adapting. So I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt during this team-wide plummet to the bottom. Next season will be far more telling after an offseason of work.

As for mobility, the guy did win fastest skater and hardest shot as the skills competition this year. Sure, his pivoting needs work, but flat-out speed is something he already does have. Not worried about him in that regard.

I should give props to the Utica posters, a lot of my assessment of Pedan is based on their reports.
 
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absolute garbage

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I think that's fair and a really good way to look at defenders. My defence for Pedan would be his lack of experience. Like I said, he's played less than 130 AHL and NHL games over the last 3 seasons. I also think he has shown some better hockey IQ in the AHL and NHL than his most recent play. IMO his problem is more with consistency than it is a real IQ problem. To me, he's more Edler than Sbisa.

As far as mobility goes, I think these huge guys can get away with a little less because of their length and reach. Also, Pedan looks better in this regard when he's playing better positionally, that tends to make any problems with mobility look worse.

From other thread:

IIRC The only prospects that are likely to become quality NHLers (50+%) are the ones that have great post draft progressions in years 1 and 2 and are in the NHL by year 3. It doesn't really matter if those years happen in college or junior or the AHL, what matters is the progression. So you don't crown Boeser's ass because he had one great year of post draft progression… but you can't have two without the first one.

I don't think the AHL is the best place to get a read on prospects. There are many that light that league up (Granlund!) and don't amount to much and the best players tend to fly right through it if they play there at all.

:help:

You say one thing, about the game thresholds, experience and progression, all of which is 100% correct, and then you have a player that does not meet those at all... yet you have this (self-proclaimed, no less) irrational optimism and hope for this player.

Eerily similar how a while back you stated that 2-3 seasons of data is not big enough sample size to get a good read on goalies' ES save%, but then in the next sentence said Lack is a bad playoff goalie (based off like 10 periods of playoff hockey).

Why do I have a feeling that if Pedan was a Gillis draft pick instead of Benning pet project, you'd be singing a different tune here. A tune that actually made sense and was in line with the rest of things you say and think.

Also I feel like you haven't quite successfully read between the lines from the Utica posters. Orcatown especially has sounded like a broken record the last couple of years where he seems dumbfounded as to why Pedan tries to "do too much" all the time. Like every game, the same report. It's like he just can't fathom the idea that Pedan simply can't process the game at passable level, so it comes across as him "trying too much", constantly running out of positions, chasing the play etc.

That's the thing I've gathered from Utica posters. Overall there's been some tiny amounts of progression but nothing significant and the same issues from 2 years ago are still there, and as you very well know we're at a point where he absolutely should make the jump if he's ever going to do it. And that's not only because of his contract situation and waiver status. Incredibly small number of good, regular NHL players have not been NHL-ready after at most ~120-150 AHL games. And Pedan is right there, so the "lack of experience" is just not true.

He's nowhere near the level needed, his progression has been slow and small, and he has hit his limit being a middle pair AHL D with major deficiencies. Really just like Corrado.
 

Tiranis

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Jun 10, 2009
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I find it strange that people are talking about Utica posters in relation to Pedan when orcatown's posts have been quite negative when it comes to Pedan. There was a blip when he was playing well and then he went back to making inexplicable decisions and doing too much.
 

Scurr

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You say one thing, about the game thresholds, experience and progression, all of which is 100% correct, and then you have a player that does not meet those at all... yet you have this (self-proclaimed, no less) irrational optimism and hope for this player.

I don't think it's irrational, though it is optimistic. Defensemen take a little longer than forwards (the discussion was around Boeser in the other thread) and again, Pedan lacks pro experience.

Eerily similar how a while back you stated that 2-3 seasons of data is not big enough sample size to get a good read on goalies' ES save%, but then in the next sentence said Lack is a bad playoff goalie (based off like 10 periods of playoff hockey).

Those are two different things. You don't need a big sample of games to judge whether a goalie is playing well at the time but you do for predictive value. I didn't say Lack was a bad playoff goalie, I said he played poorly in the playoffs.

Why do I have a feeling that if Pedan was a Gillis draft pick instead of Benning pet project, you'd be singing a different tune here. A tune that actually made sense and was in line with the rest of things you say and think.

That's ********. I got the same kind of reaction when I defended Connauton after watching him in Abbotsford when a bunch of people had given up on him. He was a Gillis pick.

Since the day I started posting on this site I've been willing to take on popular opinions. I argued against Bieksa being "addition by subtraction" pre 2011. I've argued against Edler being a "#1 defenseman" in the league when he was putting up 50 points and people were singing his praises. I then argued against him being garbage when many people had turned on him. I argued for Bonino when many people were trashing him before he even played a game. Now he's like a cult hero around here.

It has nothing to do with Benning. I don't feel the need to be a sheep and I've been right in hindsight on a lot of these kinds of arguments in the past.

Also I feel like you haven't quite successfully read between the lines from the Utica posters. Orcatown especially has sounded like a broken record the last couple of years where he seems dumbfounded as to why Pedan tries to "do too much" all the time. Like every game, the same report. It's like he just can't fathom the idea that Pedan simply can't process the game at passable level, so it comes across as him "trying too much", constantly running out of positions, chasing the play etc.

I don't get my opinions from other people, I gather all the information and form my own opinion. IMO people are in general too hard on defensemen. Especially so for those who are offensively inclined. Jovo, Bieksa and Edler have all been turned on at different times by Canuck fan. Kevin Connauton got almost the exact same reviews from the same people that Pedan is getting.

That's the thing I've gathered from Utica posters. Overall there's been some tiny amounts of progression but nothing significant and the same issues from 2 years ago are still there, and as you very well know we're at a point where he absolutely should make the jump if he's ever going to do it. And that's not only because of his contract situation and waiver status. Incredibly small number of good, regular NHL players have not been NHL-ready after at most ~120-150 AHL games. And Pedan is right there, so the "lack of experience" is just not true.

He's nowhere near the level needed, his progression has been slow and small, and he has hit his limit being a middle pair AHL D with major deficiencies. Really just like Corrado.

O.K., you disagree. I think you could have said that without attacking me. We'll see.

I find it strange that people are talking about Utica posters in relation to Pedan when orcatown's posts have been quite negative when it comes to Pedan. There was a blip when he was playing well and then he went back to making inexplicable decisions and doing too much.

Like I said, I'm not taking anyones word for it. I like to gather as much information as I can and form my own opinion.
 
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DadBod

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Pedan has been bad this call up.

I disagree. I think he's been bad 1 game, good 1 game and average the rest. I think most of his negativity comes from hate towards Benning. And since he's a Brnning guy he therefore sucks.

Keep in mind he's young and hasn't even had a full season in the NHL and will be a depth player. We don't need to judge him with the same criteria as Doughty.

Even though he hasn't looked fantastic he's looked better than Biega, Weber, Bartowski etc. By those standards he's a 6th NHL defenseman.
 

DadBod

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Sep 1, 2009
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And just to elaborate on Pedan ...

To me, I look at scouting defenders and the skills your looking for as an inverted pyramid, where you have one foundational skill - hockey sense/IQ which normally correlates with both positional sense and quality puck distribution on the breakout - at the base, followed by two more foundational skills (mobility/footwork and size/reach) just above it.

Above those are a bunch of 'fluff' skills which are great if the player has the foundational skills in place - hitting, shot, fighting, forward skating and puck-rushing ability, PP QB skills, etc. - that form the 'top' of the inverted pyramid. However, if the defender doesn't have the foundational skills, these skills (which normally catch the eye of the casual fan the quickest) are pretty much useless. Jack Johnson is the primary example - skates like the wind, hits like a truck, cannon of a shot ... can't process the game quickly in his own zone so he's completely useless. And we see this with Sbisa here as well.

To me, when looking at defenders, you have to scout from the bottom up in terms of this pyramid. My frustration on Benning is that for every single defender he's targeted, he seems to be captivated by fluff skills and be scouting from the top down. In other words, I don't think he has a ****ing clue how to scout or project NHL defenders.

In Pedan's case, I see a guy with huge deficiencies both in terms of his hockey IQ/game processing and in terms of his footwork/skating. I can't envision this player succeeding in the NHL when he's that fundamentally flawed, no matter how big/tough/somewhat puck skilled he is.



When I strip back the hate you have for Benning and nothing he'll do will be right in your eyes this post is easy to sum up. You have one way of "scouting" defenseman and that doesn't seem to be how Benning does it so he's wrong. Your way is right, Benning "doesn't know how to scout" because it's not the reverse pyramid method you use.

In summary, your scouting methods are better than Bennings. Got it :help:


Even what talking about Pedan...a depth player who provides some grit Benning is wrong. Gotcha.
 

sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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Yup.

Is it worse than we've seen from Alex Edler when he was playing poorly?
This is getting crazy. Guy plays 5-6 games in the show with partners (mainly Bartkowski) and teammates he's unfamiliar with and people are prepared to make a close the door assessment on him as a Canuck.

Yes it's crazy he isn't running the PP and dominating.:help: The guy that actually acquired him has never sold him as a top 4 defenseman either.

Once he gets comfortable and has a chance to adjust to the gaps, speed, systems and take a couple steps in his own physical development he could be an absolutely ideal 3rd pairing defender who actually makes players pay a price for trying to get to the scoring areas.
 

Scurr

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When I strip back the hate you have for Benning and nothing he'll do will be right in your eyes this post is easy to sum up. You have one way of "scouting" defenseman and that doesn't seem to be how Benning does it so he's wrong. Your way is right, Benning "doesn't know how to scout" because it's not the reverse pyramid method you use.

In summary, your scouting methods are better than Bennings. Got it :help:


Even what talking about Pedan...a depth player who provides some grit Benning is wrong. Gotcha.

It's not a Benning thing. This is almost the exact same discussion that was had around Kevin Connauton back in the day. The reports from the farm about him are eerily similar to Pedan if you go back and read them.
 

Pip

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This is getting crazy. Guy plays 5-6 games in the show with partners (mainly Bartkowski) and teammates he's unfamiliar with and people are prepared to make a close the door assessment on him as a Canuck.

Yes it's crazy he isn't running the PP and dominating.:help: The guy that actually acquired him has never sold him as a top 4 defenseman either.

Once he gets comfortable and has a chance to adjust to the gaps, speed, systems and take a couple steps in his own physical development he could be an absolutely ideal 3rd pairing defender who actually makes players pay a price for trying to get to the scoring areas.

Clearly this isn't just Benning hate or a case of too high expectations. Tryamkin and Pedan were both acquired by Benning and were both playing during this most recent stretch of games. There is a lot of optimism surrounding Tryamkin despite the fact that "he isn't running a PP and dominating"

Maybe it's because people watch the game and make assesments on players based on how they play :dunno:

It's fine of you want to be optimistic but many have pointed out a few legitimate cricitisms and concerns of Pedan's play and it seems like others are deciding to just put your heads in the sand.

Whether or not you're a big player you still need to be able to make good decisions with the puck and I saw a lack of decision-making skills during his time up here that has me worried. This is a player that we will lose on waivers if he isn't NHL caliber by next training camp.
 

sting101

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Clearly this isn't just Benning hate or a case of too high expectations. Tryamkin and Pedan were both acquired by Benning and were both playing during this most recent stretch of games. There is a lot of optimism surrounding Tryamkin despite the fact that "he isn't running a PP and dominating"

Maybe it's because people watch the game and make assesments on players based on how they play :dunno:

It's fine of you want to be optimistic but many have pointed out a few legitimate cricitisms and concerns of Pedan's play and it seems like others are deciding to just put your heads in the sand.

Whether or not you're a big player you still need to be able to make good decisions with the puck and I saw a lack of decision-making skills during his time up here that has me worried. This is a player that we will lose on waivers if he isn't NHL caliber by next training camp.
That's fine but players progression and comfort and confidence are not linear. Pedan may or may not take the necessary steps but to start labeling him as a failure after a half dozen games on a team in a really tough transition playing with Bartkowski isn't fair IMO. And I can guarantee you there are posters on this board who are waiting for him to stumble so they can make their statement that Benning is a bad evaluator of talent.

And if Pedan can't make the team by next years camp then so long......just like Corrado. You can't keep waiting beyond 5 yrs for players to establish themselves as NHLers.
 

m9

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That's fine but players progression and comfort and confidence are not linear. Pedan may or may not take the necessary steps but to start labeling him as a failure after a half dozen games on a team in a really tough transition playing with Bartkowski isn't fair IMO. And I can guarantee you there are posters on this board who are waiting for him to stumble so they can make their statement that Benning is a bad evaluator of talent.

And if Pedan can't make the team by next years camp then so long......just like Corrado. You can't keep waiting beyond 5 yrs for players to establish themselves as NHLers.

Totally agree. Pedan has played poor during his callup, but so has the rest of the team. I'm not going to write him off based on a handful of games.
 

m9

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I find it strange that people are talking about Utica posters in relation to Pedan when orcatown's posts have been quite negative when it comes to Pedan. There was a blip when he was playing well and then he went back to making inexplicable decisions and doing too much.

I would not say quite negative, I would say reports from Utica have been inconsistent after a great start to the year.
 

Kickassguy

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When I strip back the hate you have for Benning and nothing he'll do will be right in your eyes this post is easy to sum up. You have one way of "scouting" defenseman and that doesn't seem to be how Benning does it so he's wrong. Your way is right, Benning "doesn't know how to scout" because it's not the reverse pyramid method you use.

In summary, your scouting methods are better than Bennings. Got it :help:


Even what talking about Pedan...a depth player who provides some grit Benning is wrong. Gotcha.

Literally 80% of defencemen that Benning has acquired so far that we've seen follow the formula of "all tools, no toolbox".

Sbisa, Bartkowski, Clendening, Pedan are all prime examples of this. Tryamkin seems to be his one hit so far. Remains to be seen how Larsen looks when he comes over/some of the other picks when they actually come close to hitting the pros.

This isn't hard to see, unless you choose to willfully ignore it.
 

Pip

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That's fine but players progression and comfort and confidence are not linear. Pedan may or may not take the necessary steps but to start labeling him as a failure after a half dozen games on a team in a really tough transition playing with Bartkowski isn't fair IMO. And I can guarantee you there are posters on this board who are waiting for him to stumble so they can make their statement that Benning is a bad evaluator of talent.

And if Pedan can't make the team by next years camp then so long......just like Corrado. You can't keep waiting beyond 5 yrs for players to establish themselves as NHLers.

Just like how everyone is out there dumping on Boeser, or Demko, or Tryamkin. It's almost as if prospects that are tracking well get almost universal praise while prospects who have holes in their games will have doubters.

Just like how there are some posters who don't believe in Subban, Gaunce, Bresbois, Kenins etc.

Everything doesn't have to be some sort of agenda. Pedan has had mixed reports in Utica and has just come off a terrible callup. It's not all that unreasonable to be down on him as a prospect. He's the same age as Corrado.
 

DadBod

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Literally 80% of defencemen that Benning has acquired so far that we've seen follow the formula of "all tools, no toolbox".

Sbisa, Bartkowski, Clendening, Pedan are all prime examples of this. Tryamkin seems to be his one hit so far. Remains to be seen how Larsen looks when he comes over/some of the other picks when they actually come close to hitting the pros.

This isn't hard to see, unless you choose to willfully ignore it.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make other than to just crap on Benning. Your "all tool no toolbox" analogy doesn't make sense...at all. Unless you're trying to imply Benning sucks at drafting because he hasn't traded for EK, Doughty, Weber or OEL. Every defence man he's brought in all have different skill sets, and hasn't targeted a "style" per se.

Re signed Biega
Pedan
Clendenning
Forsling
Tryamkin
Sbisa
Fedun
Larsen
Etc.

Again I don't see your point. If you want to start micro dissecting every signing a GM makes then you could make a case for every GM to suck, as some people imply in this thread. I see a GM who's identifying certain qualities and trying to better his team. Not every player is going to make an impact.
 

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