Andrew MacDonald

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blinkman360

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At this point I think I'd consider using Hickey with Hamonic. Maybe he'll also be overwhelmed, but I'd rather try out something that might suck instead of something that I know will suck.

Still holding out for Snow to make a run at Klesla in Phoenix. Won't cost too much and he can step right into our top-4 and give us some much needed size. We can right this ship by A) getting AMac off the top-pairing, B) getting Visnovsky back healthy, and C) getting that big-bodied top-4(Klesla).

Something like this seems acceptable to me(or as close as we can get):

Hickey - Hamonic
Klesla - Visnovsky
MacDonald - Donovan
x - Strait; Martinek

Buh bye Carkner
 

Seph

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This is where we disagree big time.

Playing against top forwards doesn't excuse the inability to clear the puck, handle the puck in the offensive zone, find your man in front of the goal and use your body & be physical.

Sure, he is a whipping boy. But for good reason in my opinion. I blame him less than I blame Snow/Capuano for utilizing him in this role bc he simply is not a good hockey player. Mistakes would still be made if he was on the 3rd pairing playing 15-18 minutes a night (and costly ones at that).

The better the competition, the less time you have to make decisions or play the puck. Also, better competition means the opponent is far more adept at preventing your attempts, so attempts that would normally work don't. Better competition is also more likely to exploit your mistakes, so your mistakes are far more noticeable than others. And of course, fewer minutes leave you more rested, and exhaustion leads to more mistakes and less ability to stay with play.

MacDonald's play tends to correlate inversely to the amount of minutes he gets and the quality of competition he faces. Maybe he can not handle the 2nd or 3rd pairing minutes that he used to and he is washed up already. Maybe the correlation is just a coincidence. But logically, I am pretty sure there is a causation there.

And frankly, I don't understand the logic that a defenseman would look the same getting third pairing minutes as they would getting first. I doubt there is a coach in the world that would agree with such a claim.
 
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Chapin Landvogt

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In general, real rough for people to be calling for this guy's head in a time where both Visnovsky and Strait are out of the line-up.

They'd both obviously be getting a boatload more minutes than Carkner and Donovan, thus lowering Andy Mac's considerable workload in their absence.
 

Chapin Landvogt

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Based on what? What does he do well?

To begin, his ability to sidestep checks in his own zone, quickly swerve in a manner that keeps opposing forwards guessing with regularity, and maintain control of the puck, or at least place it somewhere where he or another Islander can come into possession of it, is almost off the charts - in a positive manner. I've seen very few Dmen with this ability. He also regularly takes a check, thus offering himself up, in order to move pucks. He's got great athleticism and balance on his skates. Compare his waterbug jumps with those of a constantly falling tree like Carkner. Huge difference.

In general, he simply plays a thinking man's game, sometimes overthinking things, but we should be impressed with the iron lung manner in which goes about things and logs ice time. Some of the best Dmen this league has ever seen weren't out there trying to check everything that moves, but rather lived off of reading and reacting. This is something he actively tries to do. He plays like he knows his limits, but expects more of himself. This is to be commended.

I'd hate to think where we'd be back there if he wasn't doing this with aplomb.

Now, I'm only watching the games on Gamecenter, i.e. I'm not there live. Maybe I'd think differently if I had that live vantage point, but some of the comments and observations in this thread simply show that many of us have precious little experience playing this game at even a halfway competitive level. It's not a Playstation game out there. I've gotta think that those who have played a good bit at a competitive level who have Andy in much higher regards.
 

SDIsles34

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To begin, his ability to sidestep checks in his own zone, quickly swerve in a manner that keeps opposing forwards guessing with regularity, and maintain control of the puck, or at least place it somewhere where he or another Islander can come into possession of it, is almost off the charts - in a positive manner. I've seen very few Dmen with this ability. He also regularly takes a check, thus offering himself up, in order to move pucks. He's got great athleticism and balance on his skates. Compare his waterbug jumps with those of a constantly falling tree like Carkner. Huge difference.

In general, he simply plays a thinking man's game, sometimes overthinking things, but we should be impressed with the iron lung manner in which goes about things and logs ice time. Some of the best Dmen this league has ever seen weren't out there trying to check everything that moves, but rather lived off of reading and reacting. This is something he actively tries to do. He plays like he knows his limits, but expects more of himself. This is to be commended.

I'd hate to think where we'd be back there if he wasn't doing this with aplomb.

Now, I'm only watching the games on Gamecenter, i.e. I'm not there live. Maybe I'd think differently if I had that live vantage point, but some of the comments and observations in this thread simply show that many of us have precious little experience playing this game at even a halfway competitive level. It's not a Playstation game out there. I've gotta think that those who have played a good bit at a competitive level who have Andy in much higher regards.

Totally respect your opinion Chap and see lots of terrific & detailed posts from you, specifically with our prospects, so thanks for that.

However, still can't agree with you here. (and for your knowledge, I've played the game). I've watched 8 of the 12 games live.

You referenced an ability to "sidestep checks in his own zone" and place the puck to maintain possession and I can't say that is an incorrect assessment, however, this season it has not been a consistent part of his game. (Others blame fatigue from over usage). In past seasons I would refer to Andrew MacDonald as "poised" or "in control" but this season has been a train wreck in that regard.

We should see more bright spots from someone playing so many minutes. If I had any compliments for him, it would be his stick play and ability to jam up passing and shooting lanes (again not consistent this season)

I can think of just a couple things he does not do well:
- Overall defensive coverage
- Communication w/ D partner and picking up his man skating into his zone
- Locking up man in front of the crease, protecting the net.
- One on one defense, driving man towards the boards
- Consistent clearing and break out passes
- Physicality in any capacity
- Offensive awareness, pinches and reads.
- Positioning, taking angles
- Skating ability, agility and acceleration
- Shots to the net, 13 shots in 12 games (averaging 26+ mins per game and getting PP time)

Am I missing anything? (sorry for the rant but I refuse to excuse Amac for performing so poorly)
 

InformTheMasses

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Totally respect your opinion Chap and see lots of terrific & detailed posts from you, specifically with our prospects, so thanks for that.

However, still can't agree with you here. (and for your knowledge, I've played the game). I've watched 8 of the 12 games live.

You referenced an ability to "sidestep checks in his own zone" and place the puck to maintain possession and I can't say that is an incorrect assessment, however, this season it has not been a consistent part of his game. (Others blame fatigue from over usage). In past seasons I would refer to Andrew MacDonald as "poised" or "in control" but this season has been a train wreck in that regard.

We should see more bright spots from someone playing so many minutes. If I had any compliments for him, it would be his stick play and ability to jam up passing and shooting lanes (again not consistent this season)

I can think of just a couple things he does not do well:
- Overall defensive coverage
- Communication w/ D partner and picking up his man skating into his zone
- Locking up man in front of the crease, protecting the net.
- One on one defense, driving man towards the boards
- Consistent clearing and break out passes
- Physicality in any capacity
- Offensive awareness, pinches and reads.
- Positioning, taking angles
- Skating ability, agility and acceleration
- Shots to the net, 13 shots in 12 games (averaging 26+ mins per game and getting PP time)

Am I missing anything? (sorry for the rant but I refuse to excuse Amac for performing so poorly)

Great assessment. His gaps are terrible too, gives opponents way too much respect and too much room. Makes no attempt to deny the blue line or force a dump in EVER.

I disagree with the skating and agility thing. Amac is a good skater and while chapin is right he is shifty and eludes forecheckers on a breakout, that's only on opponents line changes and when the isles are on the PP (which he shouldn't be on). He has not shown the ability to do that in even strength situations where there is pressure in the defensive zone (like hamonic has this year) and it really compounds the problem that amac can't clear a puck to save his life.
 

kasper11

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The better the competition, the less time you have to make decisions or play the puck. Also, better competition means the opponent is far more adept at preventing your attempts, so attempts that would normally work don't. Better competition is also more likely to exploit your mistakes, so your mistakes are far more noticeable than others. And of course, fewer minutes leave you more rested, and exhaustion leads to more mistakes and less ability to stay with play.

MacDonald's play tends to correlate inversely to the amount of minutes he gets and the quality of competition he faces. Maybe he can not handle the 2nd or 3rd pairing minutes that he used to and he is washed up already. Maybe the correlation is just a coincidence. But logically, I am pretty sure there is a causation there.

And frankly, I don't understand the logic that a defenseman would look the same getting third pairing minutes as they would getting first. I doubt there is a coach in the world that would agree with such a claim.

Not only that, but there is a confidence factor as well. When you are going up against top competition that you aren't really talented enough to match up with, it is going to effect the rest of your game.

We see it all the time. A forward struggling offensively starts making defensive lapses. A hitter in baseball in a slump suddenly starts making errors in the field.

AMac is not talented enough to play the role and minutes that he is right now. That doesn't mean that he is a bad defenseman.

I really don't understand people. Do you think giving AMac's minutes to Hickey would help? That Hickey should go up against the elite players and be given 25 minutes a night and that suddenly the Isles would be winning?
 

SDIsles34

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I really don't understand people. Do you think giving AMac's minutes to Hickey would help? That Hickey should go up against the elite players and be given 25 minutes a night and that suddenly the Isles would be winning?

I don't think that is the point. The Islanders defensive unit is horrendous in terms of talent and depth.

IMO, there are no internal options to solve this issue.

So, yes, blame Snow for that addressing this need, blame Capuano for not balancing minutes more appropriately and/or splitting up Hamonic and Amac.

Most importantly, Amac is responsible for his awful play. He has not stepped up to the plate when given the opportunity to play a major role on this team.
 

redbull

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Totally respect your opinion Chap and see lots of terrific & detailed posts from you, specifically with our prospects, so thanks for that.

However, still can't agree with you here. (and for your knowledge, I've played the game). I've watched 8 of the 12 games live.

You referenced an ability to "sidestep checks in his own zone" and place the puck to maintain possession and I can't say that is an incorrect assessment, however, this season it has not been a consistent part of his game. (Others blame fatigue from over usage). In past seasons I would refer to Andrew MacDonald as "poised" or "in control" but this season has been a train wreck in that regard.

We should see more bright spots from someone playing so many minutes. If I had any compliments for him, it would be his stick play and ability to jam up passing and shooting lanes (again not consistent this season)

I can think of just a couple things he does not do well:
- Overall defensive coverage
- Communication w/ D partner and picking up his man skating into his zone
- Locking up man in front of the crease, protecting the net.
- One on one defense, driving man towards the boards
- Consistent clearing and break out passes
- Physicality in any capacity
- Offensive awareness, pinches and reads.
- Positioning, taking angles
- Skating ability, agility and acceleration
- Shots to the net, 13 shots in 12 games (averaging 26+ mins per game and getting PP time)

Am I missing anything? (sorry for the rant but I refuse to excuse Amac for performing so poorly)

For the record, I'm still on team Amac, even though he's not played great last year and some of this year. I watched Streit's game deteriorate in his last two seasons as well, so opinions can/should change as his play changes. Same for Moulson, for that matter.

But I think a lot of people on this board are unfairly harsh on MacDonald, and it's not just the minutes he plays and competition he plays against.

I don't have an issue with the list, per se, except maybe the skating/agility where I think he's really good at. Amac is far from perfect but he's a pretty good defenseman overall. Sure he makes mistakes but he does a lot of good things out there as well. Fact is, if MacDonald was as bad as you (and others) indicate, and plays 25-30 minutes a night, and we don't have Bernier stealing games, the Isles would be losing games by 5,6,7 goals. And they are NOT.

It's not MacDonald who's a problem. It's that we don't have Visnovsky - Weber in the top two. MacDonald draws the short straw, because Capuano loves him, and just exposes how difficult it is to play big minutes in the NHL.

Leaf fans hate Phaneuf because he's not great. He'd have a similar list of deficiencies as your list above for MacDonald. But Phaneuf plays 25-30 minutes a night as well, against top players, and does a lot of good things in helping the team win.

There's very little difference between the 4th-5th best team and the 25th-26th best team and most defensemen, outside maybe 1-2 per team, would have a list of shortcomings similar to MacDonald. There are some exceptions, but it's not like the Islanders are much worse than any other team with personnel and Amac could/would and WILL play a top four role on most teams - as we'll find out July 1st when he signs his big contract. I remember James Wisniewski, he was a terrible defenseman and he landed himself some huge dollars. It will happen.
 

kasper11

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I don't think that is the point. The Islanders defensive unit is horrendous in terms of talent and depth.

IMO, there are no internal options to solve this issue.

So, yes, blame Snow for that addressing this need, blame Capuano for not balancing minutes more appropriately and/or splitting up Hamonic and Amac.

Most importantly, Amac is responsible for his awful play. He has not stepped up to the plate when given the opportunity to play a major role on this team.

How many people could step into that role? Do you realize that he is 4th in the NHL in minutes per game right now? Don't you think there is a reason that even elite defensemen don't play that many minutes?

You can't put a player into a role they aren't suited for and then blame the player for failing. He isn't Shea Weber, but he never claimed to be. It is Capuono/Snow that are trying to make him play that role.
 

A Pointed Stick

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I have read good breakdowns of A Mac in here with all of his faults and some positive skills, but in the end what does any of it matter? He should be on the third pair, and only see 2nd pair duties when we are pinched for help. He has been completely exposed playing way too many minutes against the top lines of other teams. That is because the club has not addressed the need for better top 4 defense men. I am sorry for being a broken record about that fact, but it is what it comes down to. Maybe Hickey and Hamonic would be better together, but they tried that in pre season and didn't like what they saw. They don't have many options due to the roster. Pretty much we are screwed on defense and no juggling of players is going to get that busted blue line even to an average level.

Accept reality.
 

InformTheMasses

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It is Capuono/Snow that are trying to make him play that role.

Interesting, I had no idea the general manager controlled shift changes and ice time distribution. I know I know... he indirectly is responsible because this is the crew he decided to go to war with.

Doesn't excuse capuano from mishandling the assets (in this case amac) and the player for not performing. I'll be the first to admit this defense group is not very strong. But it isn't as horrible as they look right now or as bad as most people seem to think. They are misused across the board. And the pairings and ice time should look a lot different than they currently do. This same defense group played really well at times last year and it wasnt because of the one guy who left (streit). They are capable of more..... not a cup but they are capable of much more than what they are showing.
 

InformTheMasses

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I have read good breakdowns of A Mac in here with all of his faults and some positive skills, but in the end what does any of it matter? He should be on the third pair, and only see 2nd pair duties when we are pinched for help. He has been completely exposed playing way too many minutes against the top lines of other teams. That is because the club has not addressed the need for better top 4 defense men. I am sorry for being a broken record about that fact, but it is what it comes down to. Maybe Hickey and Hamonic would be better together, but they tried that in pre season and didn't like what they saw. They don't have many options due to the roster. Pretty much we are screwed on defense and no juggling of players is going to get that busted blue line even to an average level.

Accept reality.


I said hickey and hamonic together the day viz went down... somewhere in the viz ir thread
. Not that it definitely would have worked but it couldn't be worse than what's going on now. Then again, I'm a nobody fan that doesn't know squat.
 

bigd

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I said hickey and hamonic together the day viz went down... somewhere in the viz ir thread
. Not that it definitely would have worked but it couldn't be worse than what's going on now. Then again, I'm a nobody fan that doesn't know squat.
There is no way Hickey could handles the top forwards in the league on a nightly basis, esp the big forwards. :shakehead
 

InformTheMasses

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There is no way Hickey could handles the top forwards in the league on a nightly basis, esp the big forwards. :shakehead

Your kidding. Hickey isn't weber?

How's amac working for you? And who said any of them have to play 30 minutes like amac is now? None of them can handle that.

The reason why I put hockey with harmonic is because hickey can clear the zone. Instead of harmonic skating in his own zone for two minutes until he commits a penalty because amac failed to clear 19 times.
 

bigd

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Your kidding. Hickey isn't weber?

How's amac working for you? And who said any of them have to play 30 minutes like amac is now? None of them can handle that.

The reason why I put hockey with harmonic is because hickey can clear the zone. Instead of harmonic skating in his own zone for two minutes until he commits a penalty because amac failed to clear 19 times.
Hickey is not the answer.:shakehead
 

InformTheMasses

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There is no way Hickey could handles the top forwards in the league on a nightly basis, esp the big forwards. :shakehead

And by the way, I have seen hickey blow up evander Kane and other power forwards. Can't say I've seen amac ever do work and own a larger forward on his entire career.

Probably because hickey is stronger on his skates, stronger physically, takes proper routes to the puck and opposing player and is smarter knowing when to make a hit and seeing the opportunity.
 

SDIsles34

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How many people could step into that role? Do you realize that he is 4th in the NHL in minutes per game right now? Don't you think there is a reason that even elite defensemen don't play that many minutes?

You can't put a player into a role they aren't suited for and then blame the player for failing. He isn't Shea Weber, but he never claimed to be. It is Capuono/Snow that are trying to make him play that role.

I think Hamonic has stepped up very well when given more minutes. He still makes mistakes but nothing compared to his D partner.

If anything Hamonic has improved his puck handling skills and zone entry significantly from last season.

I get your point and I think we agree for the most part. With that said, my point was.. you'd like to see a player raise his level of play when the team needs him most. Rather than digress and lose confidence all together. Again, it's not an ideal situation (thanks Garth).
 

InformTheMasses

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Hickey is not the answer.:shakehead

When i coached, If I ever quit and whined that one of our better players were out due to injury and claimed we were out manned even before it and I just threw my hands up and rolled the same ineffective kids out there just with more minutes..... I would fire myself. The kids don't deserve that and neither do the islanders. You have yo be creative sometimes and sense opportunity to improve certain things while your shorthanded. Not be a stubborn hard headed sulking grump
 

bigd

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Have fun being miserable. Just throw your hands in the air like cappy and just keep doing the same thing ( running an overmatched non acheiver defenseman out there 30 Min a night. Its working out great.
Who says I'm miserable? Unlike may other fans on here I don't live and breath NY Islanders. I don't take wins or losses to heart. I have a life beyond sports. I just don't share the same love affair with Hickey as some of you do.
 
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