Injury Report: Andrew MacDonald out for 6 weeks (lower body injury)

[Striiker]

Way too much emphasis on zone starts.

It makes no sense, but that's intentional.

The goal wasn't to judge Sanhiem. It was to find a reason to complain about him. By admitting that Sanheim wasn't bad, it's admitting that Hakstol made a mistake by scratching him for a far inferior player.

 

[TB87]

The lack of objectivity is with you regarding Sanheim & MacDonald. You can’t give MacDonald even an ounce of credit, similar to the way you view Hakstol.
MacDonald was the 2nd best defenseman on the Flyers in the playoffs. He led the defense in +/- at even despite having a 33.96% off. zone face off % (Sanheim had 53.13%). AMac had two goals & had to log tough minutes against a great offensive team.
Manning was no great shakes, but he played way harder minutes than Sanheim (29.17% off zone starts for Manning) plus did a decent job killing penalties.

Face it. Sanheim was overmatched, & he sure wasn’t ready to kill penalties in the playoffs against Pittsburgh. So when he was largely ineffective in the first 4 games when he got his chance in sheltered minutes, of course he’s the defenseman who is coming out. Gudas, AMac, & Manning kill penalties & we’re doing a decent job of it against a killer PP. Provorov & Ghost sure aren’t coming out. Sanheim got his chance & wasn’t good.

FYI, plus-minus doesn’t actually convey any meaningful information about a player.

Plus-Minus Does Not:
- control for quality of teammates
- control for quality of opponents
- control for game situation (trailing team more likely to score than leading team)
- control for sheltering
- account for scoring rates
- split offense and defense
- account for uncertainty and randomness

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

It makes no sense, but that's intentional.

The goal wasn't to judge Sanhiem. It was to find a reason to complain about him. By admitting that Sanheim wasn't bad, it's admitting that Hakstol made a mistake by scratching him for a far inferior player.

It's page one of the Contrarian's Playbook.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

FYI, plus-minus doesn’t actually convey any meaningful information about a player.

Plus-Minus Does Not:
- control for quality of teammates
- control for quality of opponents
- control for game situation (trailing team more likely to score than leading team)
- control for sheltering
- account for scoring rates
- split offense and defense
- account for uncertainty and randomness

Did I say somewhere it was a flawless stat?

It’s just one stat of many to consider with context, & I’ve never said otherwise.

But to say it “doesn’t actually convey any meaningful information about a player” is extreme & I disagree. There’s a reason Couturier is always at the top of the Flyers in +/-. There’s a reason Mark Howe was +80 one season. There’s a reason Bobby Clarke’s career +/- is among the best ever. It does tell you something about a player, even if far from perfect.

But thanks for the lecture.

 

[Striiker]

FYI, plus-minus doesn’t actually convey any meaningful information about a player.

Plus-Minus Does Not:
- control for quality of teammates
- control for quality of opponents
- control for game situation (trailing team more likely to score than leading team)
- control for sheltering
- account for scoring rates
- split offense and defense
- account for uncertainty and randomness

Yep.

Like I’ve said before, even bringing it up is waiving white flag in an argument. If there was a real case to be made, such a useless stat would not need to be mentioned.

 

[TB87]

Did I say somewhere it was a flawless stat?

It’s just one stat of many to consider with context, & I’ve never said otherwise.

But to say it “doesn’t actually convey any meaningful information about a player” is extreme & I disagree. There’s a reason Couturier is always at the top of the Flyers in +/-. There’s a reason Mark Howe was +80 one season. There’s a reason Bobby Clarke’s career +/- is among the best ever. It does tell you something about a player, even if far from perfect.

But thanks for the lecture.

Haha! Why so defensive? Didn’t give you a lecture. Just presented objective info.

BTW, the info was from a presentation at a statistics conference by the Penguins head analytics guy. I’m sure the vast majority of analytics employees who work for NHL teams share the same sentiment. Are they all wrong and you’re the one who is right oh wise one?

 

[pit]

We sure could use Mandog right about now.

Oh well...let’s go Blackhawks!!!

 

[Tripod]

1 GF 1 GA in the easiest, most cherry picked minutes among the D.

But you already knew that.

No I didn't actually. Sorry you are so defensive. But it also explains why you left it out in your post.

Sanheim does not dictate when he plays, but isn't being on the ice for 1 5vs5 in 4 games good? Isn't that what you want from a Dman first? To not allow goals. That's what people said thru the the season. Right?

A quick look and it looks like he was on for 1 goal out of the 13 scored against us. AND he had the only goal scored in the last 2 games.

And you honestly think he deserved to be scratched. That doesn't seem like an impartial opinion.

 

[deadhead]

I don't know if Sanheim deserved to be scratched, I do know him being scratched had little impact, positive or negative, Gudas would have screwed up in game six either way.

Sanheim did nothing special in the playoffs, he was basically "Meh" by any standard.
Hagg had a xGFrel of +37.78 for his SSS, which is probably as good as a defensive defenseman can possibly play.

Then again, few players had a good playoff series, basically Couts, Provorov and Laughton. Giroux and Ghost had a weird series, good Corsi for Giroux, good xGF for Ghost, awful GF/GA for both players. Voracek and Simmonds were decent but not top six quality, Raffl, TK and Patrick were meh, Filppula, Read, Lehtera, MacDonald, Manning and Gudas were awful ES, solid on the PK. Lindblom was just awful period.

It was pretty much a group effort. And we'll just ignore the awful goal tending shall we?

Focusing on Sanheim sitting for a couple games is ignoring the stampeding herd of Bison for the elk bounding by.
The problem was both lack of depth and too many top veterans failing to step it up when it counted.

 

[Striiker]

Always remember guys: if Hakstol does something stupid to hurt the team, it doesn’t matter.

 

[Adtar02]

Did you even bother reading the parts about zone starts?
Do you think Sanheim played anywhere near as difficult minutes 5 on 5 as the other defensemen on the team?
You say AMac was on the ice for 7 GA 5 on 5. That’s disingenuous to present the stat by itself without context.
AMac was on for 5 GF & 7 GA despite playing a lot of difficult minutes against an offensive powerhouse.
To compare:
Giroux was on for 3 GF & 13 GA
Ghost was on for 2 GF & 10 GA
Provorov was on for 6 GF & 11 GA
Manning was only on for 5 GA at ES despite the 2nd most minutes & most disadvantageous zone starts on the team. Problem was he was on for 0 GF.
Gudas: 3 GF 6 GA

Ignoring the impact Sanheim’s over 50% offensive zone starts & sheltered usage had on his GA is illogical. Despite that usage, he still looked overmatched to me.

I also said he was mins two. Figured you could handle the math.

What’s disingenuous is to use the playoffs as a position of quality of play. The entire team got smoked. And out coached. I wasn’t comparing players just adding to what you wrote. Ghost was sheltered just as bad. I didn’t say anything about the other part because it was what I was commenting on. You said again Mac had the best plus minus for dman. Again he didn’t hagg did but you don’t count that. You didn’t show other plus mins. You only showed some stats. i Like quality of teammate. Pdo. Helps show an even broader picture. While Mac played hard in his mins and preformed the best he could did well for his standards. Sanhiem did as well.

Don’t think anyone who watched the games would say Mac had easy mins. That’s kinda the problem while he is an nhl defense,an and played hard. He shouldn’t be getting those kind of mins. It’s been a huge problem with this team for a while. Hence people want to see the kids playing because we’ve seen Mac play and know what he can do. Best in the league at conceding the blue line.

 

[Adtar02]

Out of curiosity, what was Sanheims GF and GA 5vs5? Or did you post it and I missed it.

1 and 1

Hmmm???

 

[Adtar02]

I don't know if Sanheim deserved to be scratched, I do know him being scratched had little impact, positive or negative, Gudas would have screwed up in game six either way.

Sanheim did nothing special in the playoffs, he was basically "Meh" by any standard.
Hagg had a xGFrel of +37.78 for his SSS, which is probably as good as a defensive defenseman can possibly play.

Then again, few players had a good playoff series, basically Couts, Provorov and Laughton. Giroux and Ghost had a weird series, good Corsi for Giroux, good xGF for Ghost, awful GF/GA for both players. Voracek and Simmonds were decent but not top six quality, Raffl, TK and Patrick were meh, Filppula, Read, Lehtera, MacDonald, Manning and Gudas were awful ES, solid on the PK. Lindblom was just awful period.

It was pretty much a group effort. And we'll just ignore the awful goal tending shall we?

Focusing on Sanheim sitting for a couple games is ignoring the stampeding herd of Bison for the elk bounding by.
The problem was both lack of depth and too many top veterans failing to step it up when it counted.

1 agree no impact other than experience.

2sanhiem wasn’t meh. And hagg had the highest pdo by a lot at 100 lol. He also saw a ton of time with coots being sheltered in game six.

3 the weird series stat is pdo.

They got smoked bad turn overs and bad goal tending. Too many times I saw them turn the puck over at their blue line for a quick goal.

 

[Adtar02]

It makes no sense, but that's intentional.

The goal wasn't to judge Sanhiem. It was to find a reason to complain about him. By admitting that Sanheim wasn't bad, it's admitting that Hakstol made a mistake by scratching him for a far inferior player.

No. We already learn hagg didn’t play

 

[freakydallas13]

Did you even bother reading the parts about zone starts?
Do you think Sanheim played anywhere near as difficult minutes 5 on 5 as the other defensemen on the team?
You say AMac was on the ice for 7 GA 5 on 5. That’s disingenuous to present the stat by itself without context.
AMac was on for 5 GF & 7 GA despite playing a lot of difficult minutes against an offensive powerhouse.
To compare:
Giroux was on for 3 GF & 13 GA
Ghost was on for 2 GF & 10 GA
Provorov was on for 6 GF & 11 GA
Manning was only on for 5 GA at ES despite the 2nd most minutes & most disadvantageous zone starts on the team. Problem was he was on for 0 GF.
Gudas: 3 GF 6 GA

Ignoring the impact Sanheim’s over 50% offensive zone starts & sheltered usage had on his GA is illogical. Despite that usage, he still looked overmatched to me.

Is your argument also trying to prove we should trade giroux, ghost and provorov and build around Macdonald?

 

[Doodootheclown]

We sure could use Mandog right about now.

Oh well...let’s go Blackhawks!!!

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Personally, I'd like to see how training camp and pre-season works out before engaging in hysterics over the roster/lineup decisions. And at this point I'm certainly interested in rehashing last season's arguments.

I guess I'm crazy. I'm look at this point in time of one of optimism and I'd prefer to relax and enjoy the process before getting angry over something.

I guess I'm not a real Philly fan.

Did you ever get that rug back?

 

[GapToothedWonder]

We sure could use Mandog right about now.

Oh well...let’s go Blackhawks!!!

How are you liking Chicago so far? Do the players live in the city or do most of you live in a suburb somewhere?

 

[Striiker]

No. We already learn hagg didn’t play

Oh yeah, true.

Sanheim didn’t play well (except for when he did).
Hagg didn’t play in the playoffs (except for when he did).
Sanheim didn’t get healthy scratched (except for when he did).
Hakstol didn’t f*** up (except for when he did).

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Always remember guys: if Hakstol does something stupid to hurt the team, it doesn’t matter.

Nothing matters. Kumbaya.

#HiveMemories #RockinIt2016Style

 

[Adtar02]

Oh yeah, true.

Sanheim didn’t play well (except for when he did).
Hagg didn’t play in the playoffs (except for when he did).
Sanheim didn’t get healthy scratched (except for when he did).
Hakstol didn’t f*** up (except for when he did).

It wasn’t me!!!

 

[Amorgus]

Something Awful is invading the forums!!! In Black Ops 2 I had the Get Out frog as my emblem so it would show up on the riot shield when I stuck it down.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Is your argument also trying to prove we should trade giroux, ghost and provorov and build around Macdonald?

Is that really what you think I’m arguing?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No I didn't actually. Sorry you are so defensive. But it also explains why you left it out in your post.

Sanheim does not dictate when he plays, but isn't being on the ice for 1 5vs5 in 4 games good? Isn't that what you want from a Dman first? To not allow goals. That's what people said thru the the season. Right?

A quick look and it looks like he was on for 1 goal out of the 13 scored against us. AND he had the only goal scored in the last 2 games.

And you honestly think he deserved to be scratched. That doesn't seem like an impartial opinion.

I’m not sure what is so difficult to grasp for people. Sanheim was deployed in situations against Pittsburgh much less likely to lead to ES goals against.

Sanheim had the 2nd highest offensive zone start ratio among the D at 53% of non neutral zone starts (Ghost had 58%, Hagg & Provorov 44%, Gudas 35%, Mac 34%, Manning 29%).

Sanheim faced the easiest xGF% QoC of anyone on the entire roster in the playoffs except Weise. Much behind the other D, except only slightly behind Hagg. (Ghost was 3rd behind Provorov & Mac.)

Despite his relatively weak competition & advantageous zone starts, he only had 1 point in 4 games (and for those, unlike me, who adore Corsi, his CF% was still only 48.68–below Manning who had way more difficult usage).

And frankly he just looked overwhelmed. He got his chance. He didn’t play well despite extremely sheltered use. He wasn’t going to kill penalties. So if there’s a guy to switch up on D after 4 mediocre games, it was going to be him.

And acting like playing Hagg over Sanheim in games 5 & 6 “hurt” the team, as some have said, is ludicrous. The insane overrating of Sanheim’s play last season continues...

 

[Strawberry Fields]

we will be mindblown together forever

Is this a deadhead quote?