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Jacobv2 said:
It's not about an excuse
You come out here and you list Konstantin Kolstov stats during his years playing for Belarus @ the WJC's...and you compare them to Kostitsyn, yet you fail to recongnize the fact that he Kostitsyn started playing at the WJC's as a 15yr old, that's what...2 or 3 years before Kolstov even got a sniff for his countries WJC team. Why don't you dig up Kolstov's stats from whatever Belarussian league team he was playing for.
Please find me a 15yr or 16 yr who's able to rack up points at the WJC's for a team as poor as Belarus
I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but it's unfair comparing his stats with Kolstov as their 2 different situations...Kostitsyn has been a memeber of his country's national team since the age of 15 either playing in junior tournaments or world championships with men...that in itself is a much bigger accomplishment then Kolstov having a better PPG ratio when he played at the age of 18 or 19 yrs old
You want to start throwing out stats about players, fine, but get your facts straight
I'll say what i have always said about prospect under 24 years old : we'll see.
Hockey history is full of prospect being busts, late bloomers, stars, etc. There is no indication of whatever, for any player. If it's not true, then why there is so much first round busts and so much mid-to-late rounds stars? Even 2 years in the AHL can't always be a good indication.
And about Kost, why does he has to be a bust or a top-prospect-future-star? Why can't he be a "martin rucinsky" or "Richard Zednik" or "niklas sundstrom"? I say that any first round pick that turn out to be that type of player surely isn't a waste pick.
From what I've seen of Kost for now, here's my thoughs :
1- Good to real good overall potential
2- Amazing shot, NHL ready, could be enough to make a career, like Stephane Richer.
3- Very strong physically, good skater
4- Some nice Deke, but that are not adapt to North America and Pro Hockey yet.
5- Hasn't put it all togheter, and there is no indication he will be able to do so for sure.
6- Seems to be lazy at times
7- Seems to be better since coaches and GM have shaken him off few weeks ago.
8- Don't know if his relative "awakening" is here to stay or if he's the type of player that need a good shake from time to time.
9- Not so sure about his hockey sense
10- Not so sure about his attitude
11- Could be the type of player that will blossom at 22-23 years old because he has so much to learn, having play for weak teams and leagues.
12- Could be an illusion
In other words : we'll see.
Hockey history is full of prospect being busts, late bloomers, stars, etc. There is no indication of whatever, for any player. If it's not true, then why there is so much first round busts and so much mid-to-late rounds stars? Even 2 years in the AHL can't always be a good indication.
And about Kost, why does he has to be a bust or a top-prospect-future-star? Why can't he be a "martin rucinsky" or "Richard Zednik" or "niklas sundstrom"? I say that any first round pick that turn out to be that type of player surely isn't a waste pick.
From what I've seen of Kost for now, here's my thoughs :
1- Good to real good overall potential
2- Amazing shot, NHL ready, could be enough to make a career, like Stephane Richer.
3- Very strong physically, good skater
4- Some nice Deke, but that are not adapt to North America and Pro Hockey yet.
5- Hasn't put it all togheter, and there is no indication he will be able to do so for sure.
6- Seems to be lazy at times
7- Seems to be better since coaches and GM have shaken him off few weeks ago.
8- Don't know if his relative "awakening" is here to stay or if he's the type of player that need a good shake from time to time.
9- Not so sure about his hockey sense
10- Not so sure about his attitude
11- Could be the type of player that will blossom at 22-23 years old because he has so much to learn, having play for weak teams and leagues.
12- Could be an illusion
In other words : we'll see.
Jacobv2 said:
Some of your stats are skewed BTW...with the help of some helpful Habs fans, I was able to find the following...
Team Belarus WJC 01 6 0 0 0 -3 2 (made his debut as a 15yr old))
Team Belarus WJC 02 6 3 0 3 -5 0
Team Belarus WJC 03 6 2 1 3 -9 0
Team Belarus WJC 04 5 5 5 10 +5 12 (D1)
Team Belarus WJC 05 5 1 4 5 -1 6
So it's actually
Koltsov- 11 GP, 7 goals, 4 assists, 11pts, +7 rating, 32 PIM.
Kostitsyn- 28 GP, 11 goals, 10 assists, 21 pts, -13 rating, 8 PIM.
clefty
Retrovertigo
He was talking about the top division. His numbers are correct there; 6 goals, 5 assists, 11 points. Except he played 23 games instead of 24, but thats just a simple honest mistake.
And even if you are going to include Kostitsyn's lower division points, then at least do the same for Koltsov instead of contriving things to favor your argument. Counting lower division tournaments, thats another 12 points for Koltsov in 10 games.
And even if you are going to include Kostitsyn's lower division points, then at least do the same for Koltsov instead of contriving things to favor your argument. Counting lower division tournaments, thats another 12 points for Koltsov in 10 games.
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clefty said:
No he wasn't talking about the top division, he was talking about WJC performances, I didn't know division 1 performances couldn't count in this discussion.
Either way, i'm not disagreeing with anything he's saying, but simply comparing him to Koltsov is wrong because of the circumstances, and that's not an excuse, it's a fact.
Yes, Koltsov might have a better PPG ratio, but Kostitsyn was playing as a 15 and 16 yr old...as a 15 yr old he went scoreless in 6 games, and as a 16 yr old he scored 3 goals in 6 games...
If you want to compare both players production at the WJC, the only thing you can compare is both their years as 19yr old
Kostitsyn had 5pts in 5 games
Koltsov had 4 pts in 5 games...
I'm not saying Kostitsyn is the best or the worst prospect...i'm not discussing his value as a prospect, I just want the facts to be clear
clefty
Retrovertigo
417 TO MTL said:
He obviously was seeing as those are the numbers he gave about both players. He didn't count Kostitsyn's OR Koltsov's lower division numbers.
clefty said:
He listed WJC's peformances...I did the same thing, I didn't contrive anything to favor my argument, if you ask me to list his stats for his entire WJC's, that's what i'm going to do, those are his stats...
And according to Eurohockey.net...
Koltsov played 1 year in 2000 at the division 1 level, and he recorded 4pts in 5 games...
What's the point of this anyways, are we really discussing whether or no Koltsov is better then Kostitsyn?
That's ridiculous
clefty said:
Well I guess that means he contrived things to fit his argument...when I came back to write that Kostitsyn had actually played 28 games and recorded 21 pts, I assumed Koltsov's stats posted by that poster, were correct...I didn't bother to look him up, nor should I have to.
clefty
Retrovertigo
417 TO MTL said:
Lovely.
Read what you wrote.
So it's actually
Koltsov- 11 GP, 7 goals, 4 assists, 11pts, +7 rating, 32 PIM.
Kostitsyn- 28 GP, 11 goals, 10 assists, 21 pts, -13 rating, 8 PIM.
This is false. Why should anyone have to ask you? You had no problem giving Kostitsyn his extra numbers, but failed to give Koltsov's his. But either way, Jacob's point is still upheld.
Uhhh yeah, I know.
Ok, now you show me where I or anyone said that.
All I'm saying is Jacob didn't get his numbers wrong. He merely only included statistics from the top level of World Juniors play, which it totally understandable seeing as its a weaker level of playe against weaker opposition.
Yeah. You shouldn't have to check if you know what you're talking about. Good stuff.
Jacob
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- Feb 27, 2002
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I didn't bring up Pool B stats because they're moot. The discussion was about real competition in the top tier, not Denmark or Japan. This is my entire point about Kostitsyn, everything about him is intangible, it's in the air, there is no concrete track record for success at any meaningful level of hockey.
You can tell me about Kostitsyn's skills but you're preaching to the choir. I know he's got an awesome shot, I know he's a decent skater with real nice balance.
The comparison is valid because the excuse was brought up that Kostitsyn didn't put up good numbers in the World Juniors because of the team he played for. My argument was that Konstantin Koltsov, a lesser-hyped prospect at the same age, put up equal or better numbers and hasn't amounted to anything in the NHL.
The comparisons are valid because, really, how many 18 year old Belarussian forwards get picked in the first round of the NHL draft? They're only 4 years apart so we're not comparing different generations here. Both had/have the tag of being high-risk, high-reward selections. Koltsov had more success in the RSL and in the WJCs than Kostitsyn did at ages 17, 18 and 19. Guess what? He's a flop. When I read Habs fans comments about Kostitsyn it really reminds me of myself 2-3 years ago. I made the same excuses for Koltsov.
You can tell me about Kostitsyn's skills but you're preaching to the choir. I know he's got an awesome shot, I know he's a decent skater with real nice balance.
The comparison is valid because the excuse was brought up that Kostitsyn didn't put up good numbers in the World Juniors because of the team he played for. My argument was that Konstantin Koltsov, a lesser-hyped prospect at the same age, put up equal or better numbers and hasn't amounted to anything in the NHL.
The comparisons are valid because, really, how many 18 year old Belarussian forwards get picked in the first round of the NHL draft? They're only 4 years apart so we're not comparing different generations here. Both had/have the tag of being high-risk, high-reward selections. Koltsov had more success in the RSL and in the WJCs than Kostitsyn did at ages 17, 18 and 19. Guess what? He's a flop. When I read Habs fans comments about Kostitsyn it really reminds me of myself 2-3 years ago. I made the same excuses for Koltsov.
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eddy
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Jacobv2 said:
I think what seperates the two is Koltsov is all speed, probably one of the fastest in the league and at the WJC level he could put up points using his amazing speed alone. However he can't pull that off in NHL just using his speed, Kostisyn is fast but relies more on his great shot and shifty moves which can translate into an NHL scorer moreso than just a speedster.
Hunter Gathers
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