Player Discussion Andreas Athanasiou

[Llamamoto]

Holland just throwed two 2’second round picks out of the window, for no reason at all, and he knew that it was a very risky move, medium reward -extreme high risk. Like, why?


But just lets move on instead.
Trade the guy for a 4thvrounder, or even better - some kind of a role player, they always do good for oilers.

Find the new Haula-worth kind of center, understands offense and eefense, and can skate, but mau need time.
Continue to fraft good, since Chiarelli - the drafting has got better. Continue deep reasearch with people like Kieth Gretzky.

Nuge - McDavid - A big body with hands
Ennis (is cheap)Draisaitl Yamamoto
Nygård - A good 2 way C - Kassian
Khaira - Sheahan - Archibald

wow that bottom 6 hurts, no balance at all.
If Puljyjärvi doing his military service in Finland and ever gets grown up mentally, he could fill in instead of Haas.. maybe.

I wished I could be high on Benson, but he is such a wild card now.

2nd round picks rarely become quality NHLers. Less than 25% of them go on to play a single game in the NHL. AA's scored 30 goals before, so I don't see how throwing out second picks is "extreme high" risk and getting a 40-50 point middle sixer would only be medium reward.

 

[MCMIL OIL]

I always thought Benson would be the one guy that would fit with McDavid the best. Had a sub par season last year. He is the type of player that reads others and plays to there strengths.. Would be massive if he pulled a Bear at camp this year but I this point we would be lucky if he becomes a bottom 6 player. I think a RFA swap with AA would be ideal. I'd give him a second year to fully settle in also.

 

[Aerchon]

2nd round picks rarely become quality NHLers. Less than 25% of them go on to play a single game in the NHL. AA's scored 30 goals before, so I don't see how throwing out second picks is "extreme high" risk and getting a 40-50 point middle sixer would only be medium reward.

The pro AA people really focus on his goals and points. Which outside one year are really not that impressive.

What people who consider AA high risk low reward focus on is his brutal 2 way play. A guy who can score 30 is great but if he causes just as many or more to go in his own net he is more liability than asset.

2 second round picks are good value. I would have MUCH preferred a lower risk asset coming back when giving up 2 seconds.

I have a terrible feeling that Holland will be desperate to recoup those picks at all costs. If he does he compounds the bad by spending even more just to get some picks back for his scouting staff.

Everyone knows the best way to build success in the cap world is through the draft. Second rounders being relatively far more valuable than the 25% you suggest.

 

[Llamamoto]

The pro AA people really focus on his goals and points. Which outside one year are really not that impressive.

What people who consider AA high risk low reward focus on is his brutal 2 way play. A guy who can score 30 is great but if he causes just as many or more to go in his own net he is more liability than asset.

2 second round picks are good value. I would have MUCH preferred a lower risk asset coming back when giving up 2 seconds.

I have a terrible feeling that Holland will be desperate to recoup those picks at all costs. If he does he compounds the bad by spending even more just to get some picks back for his scouting staff.

Everyone knows the best way to build success in the cap world is through the draft. Second rounders being relatively far more valuable than the 25% you suggest.

I didn't suggest that figure, look it up for yourself. HF tends to overrate draft picks.

That said, AA wasn't terrible defensively at all in his short time here so far.

 

[Mr Positive]

I didn't suggest that figure, look it up for yourself. HF tends to overrate draft picks.

That said, AA wasn't terrible defensively at all in his short time here so far.

that's a good reason to keep him. It seems like almost all of AA's time here was spent learning our team's system and sticking to it. It makes sense to let that continue, and once it becomes 2nd nature he can push for offense more.

And that is part of the value we got for him. We own his RFA rights and it's not like forwards like him are all that common. If there were another forward who had a similar story this year as AA this year on another team, we'd probably want to try him out.

 

[Aerchon]

I didn't suggest that figure, look it up for yourself. HF tends to overrate draft picks.

That said, AA wasn't terrible defensively at all in his short time here so far.

that's a good reason to keep him. It seems like almost all of AA's time here was spent learning our team's system and sticking to it. It makes sense to let that continue, and once it becomes 2nd nature he can push for offense more.

And that is part of the value we got for him. We own his RFA rights and it's not like forwards like him are all that common. If there were another forward who had a similar story this year as AA this year on another team, we'd probably want to try him out.

Hated the move but I am hoping it turns out. Felt like he was pretty bad reg season for both Detroit and Oilers. His post season play was decent but no points. I'm all for giving him at least 20+ games of next season to find his groove but at some point if he doesn't you just have call a spade a spade.

He needs more time absolutely but let's face it, there is a very good chance Holland threw away two seconds with both hands.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Hated the move but I am hoping it turns out. Felt like he was pretty bad reg season for both Detroit and Oilers. His post season play was decent but no points. I'm all for giving him at least 20+ games of next season to find his groove but at some point if he doesn't you just have call a spade a spade.

He needs more time absolutely but let's face it, there is a very good chance Holland threw away two seconds with both hands.

Teams “throw away” 2nds all the time on rentals, this team was fighting for first in the division at the deadline, was thin on the wings and Holland went out and got a guy who still had team control. Before his shit season this year on a historically terrible team, he had goals of 16, 18, 30 in his first 3 full seasons, on a team that’s been bad and getting worst.

I wasn’t a fan of the trade either, mostly because of who his agent is but this was a good gamble by Holland. AA reminds me of so many Oilers players who were worn down by playing on a bad team, cast as bad players by know nothing fans, only to be traded or leave town and it turns out oh they actually are a good player who was in a bad situation.

We have an opportunity here to be on the other side of the equation, taking a decent player, who no doubt has some deficiencies that were exacerbated by the team he played on, putting him in a better situation, coaching him up a bit and reaping the rewards.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Teams “throw away” 2nds all the time on rentals, this team was fighting for first in the division at the deadline, was thin on the wings and Holland went out and got a guy who still had team control. Before his shit season this year on a historically terrible team, he had goals of 16, 18, 30 in his first 3 full seasons, on a team that’s been bad and getting worst.

I wasn’t a fan of the trade either, mostly because of who his agent is but this was a good gamble by Holland. AA reminds me of so many Oilers players who were worn down by playing on a bad team, cast as bad players by know nothing fans, only to be traded or leave town and it turns out oh they actually are a good player who was in a bad situation.

We have an opportunity here to be on the other side of the equation, taking a decent player, who no doubt has some deficiencies that were exacerbated by the team he played on, putting him in a better situation, coaching him up a bit and reaping the rewards.

I've been resolutely down on this player, and this acquisition, and its just because of Holland that we got him. But even as a cynic his play in the playoffs wasn't bad. While I'll still point out no points all day he was being a reasonable north south player and even while his stuff wasn't working the puck would end up in offensive end.

I mean this guy was light years better than Kassian, who did nothing all postseason.

The biggest questions I had about AA concerned his coachability, his head space, his tendency in career to get down, or not be amenable to team wants.

That said his play on the ice showed he was listening. Wasn't cashing, but would be wrong of me to state he wasn't trying to follow direction and wasn't trying to make an impact. The player cared while multiple of his team mates didn't. This alone gets him a seating at the table next year and seeing whats on the menu next. I mean we have to try at this point to see what he can deliver.

 

[Soundwave]

Teams “throw away” 2nds all the time on rentals, this team was fighting for first in the division at the deadline, was thin on the wings and Holland went out and got a guy who still had team control. Before his shit season this year on a historically terrible team, he had goals of 16, 18, 30 in his first 3 full seasons, on a team that’s been bad and getting worst.

I wasn’t a fan of the trade either, mostly because of who his agent is but this was a good gamble by Holland. AA reminds me of so many Oilers players who were worn down by playing on a bad team, cast as bad players by know nothing fans, only to be traded or leave town and it turns out oh they actually are a good player who was in a bad situation.

We have an opportunity here to be on the other side of the equation, taking a decent player, who no doubt has some deficiencies that were exacerbated by the team he played on, putting him in a better situation, coaching him up a bit and reaping the rewards.

The Oilers?

Actually winning a trade and having patience with a player?

Surely you jest.

 

[McTonyBrar]

I always thought Benson would be the one guy that would fit with McDavid the best. Had a sub par season last year. He is the type of player that reads others and plays to there strengths.. Would be massive if he pulled a Bear at camp this year but I this point we would be lucky if he becomes a bottom 6 player. I think a RFA swap with AA would be ideal. I'd give him a second year to fully settle in also.

Benson had 36 points in 47 games on one of the worst AHL scoring teams.... after a rookie year where he had 66 points in 68 games..

Remember when Yamamoto had a "Sub-par season"?

 

[MCMIL OIL]

Benson had 36 points in 47 games on one of the worst AHL scoring teams.... after a rookie year where he had 66 points in 68 games..

Remember when Yamamoto had a "Sub-par season"?

Im not saying I'm closing the books on him at all. As I said it would be massive if he became the 50-60 point forward we were hoping for... I just see a bottom 6 forward being more realistic. Also they are 2 completely different players. Yamamoto is one of my favorites but he also hasnt play that many NHL games heck he's played less AHL games in 2 years then Benson did in one. Hes not fully out of the woods yet. Anyways Bensons hockey IQ is up there with some good NHL players I really hope he comes to camp shot out of a cannon this year.

 

[Mr Positive]

Teams “throw away” 2nds all the time on rentals, this team was fighting for first in the division at the deadline, was thin on the wings and Holland went out and got a guy who still had team control. Before his shit season this year on a historically terrible team, he had goals of 16, 18, 30 in his first 3 full seasons, on a team that’s been bad and getting worst.

I wasn’t a fan of the trade either, mostly because of who his agent is but this was a good gamble by Holland. AA reminds me of so many Oilers players who were worn down by playing on a bad team, cast as bad players by know nothing fans, only to be traded or leave town and it turns out oh they actually are a good player who was in a bad situation.

We have an opportunity here to be on the other side of the equation, taking a decent player, who no doubt has some deficiencies that were exacerbated by the team he played on, putting him in a better situation, coaching him up a bit and reaping the rewards.

the AA trade was potentially a mistake though, in that we could have spent a little more and got a higher profile rental such as Toffoli. The move Holland made does show his character. As Detroit GM I recall him complaining about trade deadline prices. He has a great point, but maybe we could have got a more established winger for McDavid, and not a project. And, maybe we would still be in the playoffs.

But for now, I'm willing to go the other way, and give AA more leash. And maybe a better winger wouldn't have made any difference. If AA does pan out then I can say it was a wise move.

 

[MaxR11]

The pro AA people really focus on his goals and points. Which outside one year are really not that impressive.

What people who consider AA high risk low reward focus on is his brutal 2 way play. A guy who can score 30 is great but if he causes just as many or more to go in his own net he is more liability than asset.

2 second round picks are good value. I would have MUCH preferred a lower risk asset coming back when giving up 2 seconds.

I have a terrible feeling that Holland will be desperate to recoup those picks at all costs. If he does he compounds the bad by spending even more just to get some picks back for his scouting staff.

Everyone knows the best way to build success in the cap world is through the draft. Second rounders being relatively far more valuable than the 25% you suggest.

Ya I was quite against Oil bringing in AA. I was a bit surprised Holland did it. I didn't follow AA much from before but he struck me as a very irresponsible overall player that had some great speed but wasn't a smart player that played a more individualized game. And from hearsay, wasn't sure about his dedication and professionalism. Never ever do you want those players on your team.

Weren't there former Wings teammates who did not have good hings to say about AA? I recall a couple of articles and stories.

Imo you don't win with guys like AA. Unless he changes and really matures... I wouldn't hold my breath. Pretty much Hall lite in my eyes.

 

[McShogun99]

I liked AA’s game during the playoffs. He kept things simple and was driving hard to the net. He could have had 3 goals against Chicago with a little luck.

 

[LTIR]

I liked AA’s game during the playoffs. He kept things simple and was driving hard to the net. He could have had 3 goals against Chicago with a little luck.

Luck or brains is the debate.
Hitting the post is bad puck luck. Hitting post on an empty net is somewhat brainless. Whiffing on passes has a line too. The guy had one of the worst seasons an NHLer can have.

 

[SwedishFire]

2nd round picks rarely become quality NHLers. Less than 25% of them go on to play a single game in the NHL. AA's scored 30 goals before, so I don't see how throwing out second picks is "extreme high" risk and getting a 40-50 point middle sixer would only be medium reward.

... And there is good drafting GMs and bad ones. I dont go so much after numbers. Holland is a good drafter, he should have stay put keeping the 2 nds. There is more than 1/4 that goes on playing in NHL. Rathrr 75%. It eould been worth keeping the picks.
It anyeay less than 25% chance AA learns how to play a team game

 

[space321]

... And there is good drafting GMs and bad ones. I dont go so much after numbers. Holland is a good drafter, he should have stay put keeping the 2 nds. There is more than 1/4 that goes on playing in NHL. Rathrr 75%. It eould been worth keeping the picks.
It anyeay less than 25% chance AA learns how to play a team game

Is he a good drafter though? Or is that just the narrative that's been handed down since he drafted Datsyuk and Zetterberg? His drafting since the turn of the millenium has been incredibly mediocre imo.

Either way, it's more about the value of the two 2nd round picks instead of how we'll use them. This "2nd round picks won't amount to much anyways" just reminds me of the "we need defence more than wingers" to try to justify Hall-Larsson crowd.

You can't build a good team when you throw away value in every single trade. Look at how Sakic built Colorado with the Duchene trade, that is basically the embodiment of how to trade. We're always on the Ottawa/Nashville side and never the Colorado side, and that's a problem.

 

[SwedishFire]

Is he a good drafter though? Or is that just the narrative that's been handed down since he drafted Datsyuk and Zetterberg? His drafting since the turn of the millenium has been incredibly mediocre imo.

Either way, it's more about the value of the two 2nd round picks instead of how we'll use them. This "2nd round picks won't amount to much anyways" just reminds me of the "we need defence more than wingers" to try to justify Hall-Larsson crowd.

You can't build a good team when you throw away value in every single trade. Look at how Sakic built Colorado with the Duchene trade, that is basically the embodiment of how to trade. We're always on the Ottawa/Nashville side and never the Colorado side, and that's a problem.

It can be that easy that Sakic, Yzerman etc. knows the game of building a good reputation.

And unlike Edmonton is not desperate. Yes is needed to change.

The interresting part is that we agree on that its not the value of the picks, its avout how to use them.

I think as long ee got Kieth Gretzky, the drafting will be good.

 

[GOilers88]

Is he a good drafter though? Or is that just the narrative that's been handed down since he drafted Datsyuk and Zetterberg? His drafting since the turn of the millenium has been incredibly mediocre imo.

Either way, it's more about the value of the two 2nd round picks instead of how we'll use them. This "2nd round picks won't amount to much anyways" just reminds me of the "we need defence more than wingers" to try to justify Hall-Larsson crowd.

You can't build a good team when you throw away value in every single trade. Look at how Sakic built Colorado with the Duchene trade, that is basically the embodiment of how to trade. We're always on the Ottawa/Nashville side and never the Colorado side, and that's a problem.

And Sakic was being hailed as a complete and utter failure around here the entire time he hung on to Duchene. Then the narrative instantly flipped to Sakic is a goddamn genius.

General HF consensus' seem to be devoid of any sort of patience or forethought. At least in my opinion.

People flip narratives around here faster and more frequently than their own underwear. Literally game by game.

Had AA managed to turn a couple of those posts into goals nobody is even having this conversation. In fact I'd be willing to bet some of those he did nothing in the playoffs folks would be singing a new tune about how his game was starting to come around when it mattered.

 

[Soundwave]

And Sakic was being hailed as a complete and utter failure around here the entire time he hung on to Duchene. Then the narrative instantly flipped to Sakic is a goddamn genius.

General HF consensus' seem to be devoid of any sort of patience or forethought. At least in my opinion.

People flip narratives around here faster and more frequently than their own underwear. Literally game by game.

Had AA managed to turn a couple of those posts into goals nobody is even having this conversation. In fact I'd be willing to bet some of those he did nothing in the playoffs folks would be singing a new tune about how his game was starting to come around when it mattered.

Pretty much, HFBoards is like a chicken running around with its head cut off.

 

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

And Sakic was being hailed as a complete and utter failure around here the entire time he hung on to Duchene. Then the narrative instantly flipped to Sakic is a goddamn genius.

General HF consensus' seem to be devoid of any sort of patience or forethought. At least in my opinion.

People flip narratives around here faster and more frequently than their own underwear. Literally game by game.

Had AA managed to turn a couple of those posts into goals nobody is even having this conversation. In fact I'd be willing to bet some of those he did nothing in the playoffs folks would be singing a new tune about how his game was starting to come around when it mattered.

If he had scored a couple goals he'd still be a defensive liability with no compete and zero hockey IQ.

It's hilarious that people think he played well because he hit a couple posts. Despite his overall game being incredibly disappointing except for one game where he actually chose to engage, then he followed that up with two disappointing follow up efforts but people said he played great because he hit a couple posts.

Oilers fans love making excuses for this player for some reason.

What's the point of a talented player when the player refuses to utilize his own talent?

 

[MaxR11]

If he had scored a couple goals he'd still be a defensive liability with no compete and zero hockey IQ.

It's hilarious that people think he played well because he hit a couple posts. Despite his overall game being incredibly disappointing except for one game where he actually chose to engage, then he followed that up with two disappointing follow up efforts but people said he played great because he hit a couple posts.

Oilers fans love making excuses for this player for some reason.

What's the point of a talented player when the player refuses to utilize his own talent?

Bang on. He had one game where he looked engage and was just decent. But he had been so damn awful before that it made that one decent game look all world to some. You dont win with players like him. I don't care if he scored 25 he'll still more likely be an overall net negative for this team imo. I really hope we dont sign him for one year... see him score 27 goals and then sign him to a more long term contract because I'm convinced he's just not a player you want on the team (lack of consistent compete and overall game/smarts).

Duchene is a much better player than AA but I think there's some similarities in compete and attitude.... which is why I think Sakic ousted him. I do think, despite his talent, he held that Avs team back a bit (whether it's attitude, compete etc). I think most teams he's been on become worse with him despite his flashy talent and decent production. There's a bit of that lack of dedication and selfishness about guys like him. I remember I think it was Patrick Roy got pissed at Duch for celebrating hard on his 30th goal of a terrible season (a meaningless goal that made it 4 st louis to 1 avs with 4 mins left in the 3rd). It's way more than just nice looking numbers... it's attitude, compete, smarts, good team player etc that can make more of a difference than just numbers.

 

[GOilers88]

If he had scored a couple goals he'd still be a defensive liability with no compete and zero hockey IQ.

It's hilarious that people think he played well because he hit a couple posts. Despite his overall game being incredibly disappointing except for one game where he actually chose to engage, then he followed that up with two disappointing follow up efforts but people said he played great because he hit a couple posts.

Oilers fans love making excuses for this player for some reason.

What's the point of a talented player when the player refuses to utilize his own talent?

I never said he played great. Haven't seen enough of him to make excuses one way or the other in my opinion. I guess that's my point. After 12 games with a new team and then a four and a half month layoff, it looked like he was starting to come around at the end of the play-ins.

Someone else said it earlier and that the Oilers and their fans always seem to want to run players out of town because they were stuck in a bad situation they couldn't fix then wind up being role players on other teams and finding success. AA seems to be that kind of player and even a miniscule amount of patience could prove to finally have Edmonton on the other end of the deal this time. If by the halfway mark of the next season he hasn't done anything of note, sure, I'll concede that it didn't work out. But I think there's a player there and he's worth more than a few weeks look.

But last year even with all the new acquisitions, people didn't want to give the team or its new players a reasonable amount of time to get acclimated to the systems and the organization before hollering that they were all worthless, and Holland HAD to do something to help a team that ended up gunning for the division. AA was the kind of TDL move people have been bitching about the Oilers not making for years, then when the move is made people bitch because he wasn't an instant success.

"He should have went and got Toffoli instead" like that suddenly means any GM can just go out and get any player regardless of the situation.

Team scores a goal. "Yay everything is awesome"

Team wins a game. "Yay everything is awesome"

New player has a good start. "This guy is the solution"

Team gets scored on. "Team is trash players suck"

Team loses a game. "Tire fire trade everyone"

New player has a rough start. "This guy is shit and the GM sucks for getting him instead of <insert player I like here>".

I've been along for this shitty ride that is Oilers fandom for the last 25 years too. But good god the fickle nature of this fanbase astounds me.

 

[MaxR11]

I never said he played great. Haven't seen enough of him to make excuses one way or the other in my opinion. I guess that's my point. After 12 games with a new team and then a four and a half month layoff, it looked like he was starting to come around at the end of the play-ins.

Someone else said it earlier and that the Oilers and their fans always seem to want to run players out of town because they were stuck in a bad situation they couldn't fix then wind up being role players on other teams and finding success. AA seems to be that kind of player and even a miniscule amount of patience could prove to finally have Edmonton on the other end of the deal this time. If by the halfway mark of the next season he hasn't done anything of note, sure, I'll concede that it didn't work out. But I think there's a player there and he's worth more than a few weeks look.

But last year even with all the new acquisitions, people didn't want to give the team or its new players a reasonable amount of time to get acclimated to the systems and the organization before hollering that they were all worthless, and Holland HAD to do something to help a team that ended up gunning for the division. AA was the kind of TDL move people have been bitching about the Oilers not making for years, then when the move is made people bitch because he wasn't an instant success.

"He should have went and got Toffoli instead" like that suddenly means any GM can just go out and get any player regardless of the situation.

Team scores a goal. "Yay everything is awesome"

Team wins a game. "Yay everything is awesome"

New player has a good start. "This guy is the solution"

Team gets scored on. "Team is trash players suck"

Team loses a game. "Tire fire trade everyone"

New player has a rough start. "This guy is shit and the GM sucks for getting him instead of <insert player I like here>".

I've been along for this shitty ride that is Oilers fandom for the last 25 years too. But good god the fickle nature of this fanbase astounds me.

I think most people who do not like AA did not like him even before he got here. He had one 30 goal year and looked like an absolutely incomplete player with lack of smarts, compete and overall game. Seemed like a one dimensional individualistic player whom the rest of the league might have already figured out. I would cut bait simply because I don't have a good feeling about what this player can offer as far as overall game to help the team win... not because he was underwhelming in his short stint here.

 

[Joey Moss]

I will be pissed if they don't qualify him. It would be terrible asset management to give up on this player this soon after what we acquired him for and knowing what he is capable of. I know the flat cap changes things for the rest of the roster, but you have to stick with him even if it means paying the 3m qualifier.